Decline of Western civilisation ...

[HouseApe]

I agree that individuals now might be more or less moral in general than they have ever been. However, I would argue that today's [Western] society is more accepting of immorality than ever before.

cheers

I disagree. The reduction in murder rates as David's chart illustrates shows that people are less inclined to murder, meaning that they are less tolerant of murder. I would bet the same can be said of theft.

I think there has been an increase of tolerance for some issues, sexuality comes to mind, but the morality of these issues is based upon religious beliefs, not their effects on life, liberty or property.

 

[Quijote]

I disagree. The reduction in murder rates as David's chart illustrates shows that people are less inclined to murder, meaning that they are less tolerant of murder. I would bet the same can be said of theft.

I think there has been an increase of tolerance for some issues, sexuality comes to mind, but the morality of these issues is based upon religious beliefs, not their effects on life, liberty or property.

Is the decline of murder in Europe over the last centuries do to people having "less tolerance" for murder or due to better protection offered by the state; lower poverty; and other factors? I would like to believe that we in the 20th century are less tolerant to murder than those in the 12th century, but Germany in the 1930's/1940's argues against that.

In regards to sexuality, what some today call "tolerance" others call "immorality". So unless we define those terms and agree on their definition, we will not agree on whether our culture is more or less accepting of 'immorality'.

cheers

 

[HouseApe]

Is the decline of murder in Europe over the last centuries do to people having "less tolerance" for murder or due to better protection offered by the state; lower poverty; and other factors? I would like to believe that we in the 20th century are less tolerant to murder than those in the 12th century, but Germany in the 1930's/1940's argues against that.

I would say lower poverty and other factors. But those factors are what lead to a lower tolerance. Doesn't really matter why. And as many Christians will state, killing your enemy in war is not a sign of moral depravation. The fact that the Nazi's defined Jews/Gypsies/homosexuals as the enemy is what made it morally ok for the Nazi's to kill them.

In regards to sexuality, what some today call "tolerance" others call "immorality". So unless we define those terms and agree on their definition, we will not agree on whether our culture is more or less accepting of 'immorality'.

cheers

Agree absolutely. Which is why some can lament what they see as the decay of society while others consider this to be a veritable golden age of morality relative to the past.

 

[tgg]

I don't know what this is all out to prove. Maybe it is because Europe is a more open and tolerant continent compared with America and the Middle East by comparison.

Having said that, I wonder what the writer has to say about the likes of Communist Russia and Nazi Germany where people were killed on account of their beliefs because it didn't come up to the likes of Karl Marx or Adolph Hitler's standards.


tgg

 

[Tomk80]

Is the decline of murder in Europe over the last centuries do to people having "less tolerance" for murder or due to better protection offered by the state; lower poverty; and other factors? I would like to believe that we in the 20th century are less tolerant to murder than those in the 12th century, but Germany in the 1930's/1940's argues against that.

But war is different than society in stable times. If we look at society in stable times now and compare them to societies in stable times in the past, you'd see that life is valued more nowadays.

It wasn't wholly abnormal for nobility to test their swords on some 'less valuable' members of society (ie, kill them for fun). Military exercises also often got a large number of people killed. If you take a good look at history, you'll see that the value of a life has gone up.

In regards to sexuality, what some today call "tolerance" others call "immorality". So unless we define those terms and agree on their definition, we will not agree on whether our culture is more or less accepting of 'immorality'.

cheers

What should be realized here is that the struggle of the 'church' against 'immorality' is a struggle which has always been taking place. Go to some of the poorer neighborhoods in Amsterdam in the 15th century, I doubt you'll find it to be more 'moral' in any way.

Someone raised the issue of abortion, and if we include them in the murder rates, how these rates would fare. Well, probably the difference between now and then will be even more pronounced. Because of the development of good contraceptives, abortion rates have gone down. A quick view in the history book learns you that abstinence only doesn't work now, and didn't work in the past. People just don't hold to it, not now, and not in the past. And many saw abortion as an option out, now and in the past. The difference is that now, pregnancy is easier to prevent, so we probably have less abortions.

And then the question also becomes, are we gonna count in deaths due to illegal abortions as murder too? Because in the places where abortion is illegal, there will always be someone who will be prepared to do the abortion in a cellar somewhere in a dark alley. The risks of these kinds of abortion are high, and can regularly result in death of the mother. Are we going to include them too?

 

[levi501]

...while others consider this to be a veritable golden age of morality relative to the past.

yah, I believe the times are more moral then they have ever been due to information technology. The masses are more informed.
I also believe the US is at least progressing morally.
Although as of right now were not moving anywhere with our current comander in chief.
Anyway, if baffles me why some believe times were more moral before the civil rights movement. When older generations talk of the golden age of the 1950s... they're simply referring to white surburbia.

 

[Spinrad]

European murder rates: (per 100,000 people)

Century _______England __Netherlands Scanadanavia Germany Italy
13th/14th ______23 ______47 _________- __________37 _____56
15th __________- ________45 ________46 __________16 _____73
16th __________7 ________25________ 21 __________11 _____47
17th __________5 ________7.5 ________18 __________7 ______32
18th __________1.5 ______5.5________ 1.9 _________7.5_____ 10.5
19th __________1.7______ 1.6________ 1.1_________ 2.8_____ 12.6
to 1950 _______0.8_______1.5________ 0.7_________ 1.7______ 3.2
1950-94 ______0.9_______ 0.9 ________0.9 _________1 _______1.5



Figures taken fromo criminologist Manuel Eisner "Secular trends of violence, evidence and theoretical interpretations (Crime and Justice: A Review of Research 3 2003).

I was hoping this was about the movie.