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Decision Making

Discussion in 'Married Couples' started by Lucky9, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. snoochface

    snoochface Meet the new boss -- same as the old boss.

    +2,664
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    You don't need a defense. You tell him, "I'm going to take the kids and go to the event, and we'll be back in plenty of time for the holy days. I think it would be wonderful if you'd come along, and I hope that you will." That's it. He says no, you say this isn't a request, I'm letting you know my plans, and I hope you'll join. He argues, you disengage and continue making plans to go. Right up to the last day if necessary.

    You already know you're not going to convince him, ease his anxiety, or calm his insecurity. So don't play those games. Invite him, but don't try to talk him into anything. Just tell him your plans and then do them.

    You really should look into counseling on your own if he's unwilling to go with you.
     
  2. RichardJ

    RichardJ Helping Men have exciting healthy marriages.

    2
    +4
    United States
    Pentecostal
    Married
    US-Republican
    Follow and submit? Would you rob a bank if he said you have to because he makes the final decision? If you don't like rob a bank what about lock the kids in a closet and not feed them? Or not pay the bills and the electric and water shut off? You don't need to follow or compromise with stupid or evil. When you do - you get stupid and evil. There are limits to headship and authority.

    I'm not saying go to the wedding no matter what.

    When I want God's best for my wife then she should follow me and submit. If I want what's best for me or even my best for her that leads to a problem with authority.

    Being a leader is not the same as being a boss. Leadership is getting people to follow you willingly. It is putting the interest of the team or other person in front of your own.

    I've learned to respect my wife's decision making process. In general I think men are more logical at making decisions. Women use their feelings. I have learned to trust my wife's intuition or gut feelings. I use to need a why and she couldn't always answer. I got burned by not listening to her.
     
  3. EmmaCat

    EmmaCat ALL Heartbeats matter Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassadors

    +1,923
    United States
    Fundament. Christ.
    Married
    US-Republican
    No one has authority over anyone, unless it's a parent over a child.

    My husband and I discuss every issue calmly and kindly. We are on an even keel, which is the way marriage should be. Our pastor always said, "Not two feet, but four feet need to enter every doorway in life."

    Maybe try to get to this point. Now of course you submit to his authority when he has his head under the hood of your car fixing the squeaky belt of your air conditioner.

    I will pray for you. I hope you both become happy and satisfied in your lives together.

    All good things
    Emmy
     
  4. Brenda Blakely

    Brenda Blakely New Member

    17
    +8
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Wow, can I ever identify with you. This being a wife is a tough job. I know for me I can't do it without constant guidance from God/Holy Spirit. This means I have to stay prepared and ready to hear and respond. Prayed up, studied up, full of His words from the Bible status at all time. But He helps me. He makes a way for me to do these things and gives me the guidance I need. When we have a decision to make we pray together and seek God's guidance (this is the most important part of our decision making process.)

    One test my husband and I have is "if we both agree we know it is God." We come from opposite poles, we are each individuals and come from somewhat different backgrounds so this makes things more difficult. When we disagree, I yield to the fact that he has to answer to God, so his decision stands after I have spoken my piece and defended my case and asked God to help me to accept my husband's decision and to help me put it in God's hands to work things out. Sometimes I have to pray constantly because I keep taking it back. Many times I have been overwhelmingly amazed at how God works when I stand firmly on Him and obey the commands of my Father God.

    I am praying for you as you navigate this wonderful plan of God for husbands and wives. Hang in there and blessings to you and your family. Oh yes and the newly to be weds.
     
  5. Lucky9

    Lucky9 New Member

    56
    +21
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Update: This past weekend I had it out with my husband...to a degree.

    I got him to tell me his concerns and reasons for why he didn't want us going. After writing them down and 5 pages later, he read what he wrote. (I have outlined them as follows):
    1) Putting miles (2400 roundtrip) on my van, tire wear, general wear/tear on vehicle, etc.

    Not that I should have to justify or counter argue this, but my van is a 2015 with 35,000 miles on. It is a vehicle in both of our names, but it is my van, that I solely drive. I've had it 3 years and basically put a little over 10k a year on it, which is less than the average driver. 2000 miles is a drop in the bucket, and won't affect the tire wear or other wear/tear on the vehicle. I'd understand this argument, and give it the tiniest of weight, if my car were older and had maybe @ 100K miles on it or more. Otherwise, this is just petty, IMO. And I shouldn't be told what, where or when I can drive my vehicle. I'm an adult for petes sake.

    2) Traveling in general - time of year, crowds, traffic, weather conditions, etc. He is worried because it's during holiday season, that it'll be too busy and too much traffic, and the roads will be unsafe.

    Another point I believe he's pulling out of his backside, that I don't think I should have to counter argue...but to be fair, I'm going to Texas (from AZ). The average low during December in TX, is 64. There is rarely ever any snow or serious weather conditions, except rain. I think, as an adult who has been driving for 34 years, that I can handle driving in a bit of heavy traffic and rain. That doesn't bother me and I'm a pretty good driver. And we're driving on major highways, not piddly dink roads or freeways. I do not believe the traffic or crowds are going to be as horrific as he imagines. But this is a man who hates to travel, hates road trips, hates driving long distances, hates crowds and hates traffic personally, so go figure this is his argument. None of that bothers me, and in fact I'm looking forward to it immensely. And so are the kids, I might add. As well, I'm driving with my brother and his family in my car, and my parents will be in their car. So I won't be alone out there on the roads. If I can't travel and be safe with my own family, who can I be safe with?

    At this point, I'm feeling insulted from the first two "concerns", because I feel he's telling me I'm a bad mother, and he doesn't trust me to take care of our children properly or that I am capable of driving my vehicle long distances. Note, in all the road trips we've ever taken, I am the main driver in each of those incidents. And I've driven with him, in rain, snow and sleet, better than he would have, according to his own words.

    3) Finances - doesn't believe that my family is paying for everything but food. Wants solid proof and evidence that that is the case.

    Now I'm not just insulted, I'm getting angry, at these stupid arguments and demands. I already told him the deal, I shouldn't have to get it in writing from my entire family before he "lets me" do something. After 20 years of marriage, my word, should be enough and I've never given him reason to not trust my word.

    4) Religion - thinks my nieces wedding is heresy, because she's not the same Orthodox Vatican 1 Catholic as he is and that her marriage is evil and in line with the illuminati and as a God fearing, religous man, it is his job to keep his children from such evils and will not allow them to be a part of such an evil heretic wedding.

    This line is what made my blood boil. How dare he? Again, with the religious guise.

    Forget that it is MY family he's talking about. Forget that it's something that matters to me a great deal. Forget even, that I'm a good mother and a good wife. All of his reasons listed above, are exactly why I want to separate from this man. Because it's always about him. Always about his needs, his wants, his desires, his opinions, his feelings. ALWAYS. And he doesn't even see it.

    So, I got angry...and I vented. I apologized for the way I ended up speaking, but if I had not said it as I did, I would not have been able to speak up. And I needed to speak up, because I literally am so done with this controlling behavior and attitude from him. So I told him as much. I told him that I'm done. I'm so done with his BS and his way or the highway crap. I'm so over everything being about him. I'm so tired of always pacifying, placating, and going along to get along, so I don't rock the boat, in fear of making him upset. So tired of stifling my own feelings, thoughts, opinions, wants, needs and desires, in order to keep the peace and make sure he's not upset, hurt or unhappy. For at least 15 years of our marriage, probably longer, I've been just going along with whatever, cowing to whatever he pushes, letting him steer us in whatever direction, otherwise I get the mental, psychological bullying and abuse. And I'm constantly walking on eggshells..constantly worried that he's going to get upset about something. I don't know what, but it happens. He's so negative and grouchy all the time....and so most of the time, I let him stay in his bedroom and sleep....cuz that's what he does almost every weekend, most of the weekend. He gets up for breakfast, but then goes back in there and goes back to sleep. Then he'll get up and make himself lunch, then go back in there and watch tv, and fall back to sleep. Then he'll get up long enough for dinner, and maybe he'll stay up and watch something on tv with me, but eventually, he'll go back in there for the night. Same thing on Sunday, except for church, he's in the bedroom sleeping and watching TV most of the time. He claims it's because I don't like to watch sports and at least he's considerate enough to watch them in the bedroom and not force me to watch it with him in the main room. But what do we share? A house? Children? What is our marriage, because we don't spend a lot of time together? And even though I find myself, wanting to spend time with him, I almost regret it because he's not always that fun to be around. Someone who is grouchy and negative and complaining all the time, is miserable to be around. And I've mentioned his grouchiness many times before, to which he always says, he's just that way. It's not depression, in case anyone thinks it is...it's just who he has become. Which, if I'm totally honest, is 180° from who he was when we married.

    But I at least was able to stand up and say some of the things I had been feeling for years, because as some of you know from my other postings here, this isn't a one time trip or even. We've been here before. And my gut, my heart and my convictions, are screaming to go see my family, go with what matters to me and not let him decide that, because I AM AN ADULT. And while I agree we should let each other know what's going on, and make sure there isn't a snag somewhere in the scheduling or finances, I absolutely, positively should be able to go with or without him, to a FAMILY event. He doesn't have to like the event, and he probably wouldn't, because he rarely enjoys my family outings. But I at least put it out there, for now, that I'm not playing his control game...and I'm not going to submit to his demands and concerns any more. I told him, I'm not a feminist, and wouldn't want to be, but I totally understand why they exist. I will not be controlled by any man, and I will not be under anyones thumb telling me what I can or can't do. NO. I won't have it. If I want to go somewhere or do something, unless it truly harms the family or finances, I'm going to do it. He isn't going to decide that for me. No. Just no.

    And that's where we left it. I didn't specifically say, I'm going to Texas regardless....yet. But I'm hoping I at least implied that with all that I said to him. I hope he at lesat understands, his concerns are just that and are not going to be taken as demands to submit to what HE thinks. And luckily, he had a few beers in him, so his level of acceptance was calm and better than I expected. He just sat there and listened to me go off, and just kept saying he heard me, he understood what i was saying. He apologized for making me feel the way I had. Unfortuntely, it seemed his big take away from everything I had said, was how bothered I was that he slept so much. I don't know if that was his way of glossing over all the other harsh words I had just said to him, but he kept mentioning how sorry he was that he went in the room so much and slept so much.

    And before anyone recommend counseling, please note I have gone this route before. On my own and with my husband. And things change....for about a week or so...but then go right back to same patterns. As well, the last time we went together, he did what he is so good at, and that is saying all the right things and twisting things around, so that I ended up being the abuser and he was the abused. And the counselor fell right for it.

    My pastor has given me counsel as well, and told me if the verbal abuse happens, to leave until I feel it is safe to come home. And to keep doing that, for longer and longer periods, until he gets the message that I won't tolerate his abuse. So I did that the last time he verbally abused me, and I stayed away for several hours. He hasn't verbally abused me since. But these other issues, aren't just issues I can stay away from, indefinitely. I have kids to tend to, I have a house and a home to tend to...why am I the one who has to leave, for a change to be made? And since my husband only wants to go to his Priests for counsel, and refuses to go anywhere else, it makes it difficult, because I honestly don't feel comfortable getting marriage advice, from men who have never been married. So....getting counsel from outside sources is an issue in itself, and yet another one we disagree on.

    We haven't gotten back to the trip discussion yet...not sure if we will. At this point though, I'm going. PERIOD. And I'm taking the kids. PERIOD. And I'm taking MY van. PERIOD. And he's just going to have to suck it up. Because at this point, I would rather separate from him, and have my marriage come to whatever split it needs to, than to continue working and slaving under, a man who makes me feel like he has the last 20 years. And that's just where I am now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  6. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Where was THIS woman the whole time!!!! Lucky9, I'm thrilled to hear you found your backbone.

    I understand you have some huge venting that wants to be done. Remember the article about the giver and the taker I linked to earlier for you? Your taker shoved your giver aside and it is roaring now.

    Don't put your taker away, but it's important that you use it productively if you want to restore your marriage. Use it to find solutions that you're mutually enthusiastic about and don't settle for anything less.

    His reasons about the kids not being involved because of his faith vs yours seem like excuses to control and to deny. However, you don't want to assume that until he proves it.

    According to the premise of each person being their own adult and not subject to the control and judgemental superiority of the other, you need to come to a mutually enthusiastic agreement about the kids and faith. If he's not happy about your faith and you're not happy about his faith, the kids get NO religious training or exposure until you reach a solution you're mutually enthusiastic about. You may carve out your way to your new resting place in increments:

    --If he's not happy about the kids being exposed to anything with your faith, even a wedding ceremony (that was perhaps similar to his own?), then perhaps you're not happy with the kids being exposed to his faith. So, the kids stay home on Sundays.
    --The kids go to no religious occasions or ceremonies -even their own.
    --The kids get to do whatever they want with respect to their faith unless you BOTH are mutually enthusiastic about them not doing it, such as:
    -----whatever TV they want to watch
    -----whatever clothes they want to wear
    -----whatever video games they want to play
    -----whatever they do while you are both in your respective churches on Sundays, etc etc....
    -----or attend whoever's church they want to attend

    See how this goes? Pretty quickly I bet you could come to some enthusiastic agreement on some of these things.

    So with respect to the car usage, if he's not enthusiastic about you driving your quite new car for 2,000 miles, perhaps you would need to drive his car, or rent a car for the trip, or buy airline tickets. Again, see how this goes? No one shoots the other person down, but you negotiate with equal footing, in good faith and good will. One party doesn't dictate all the terms and force the results.

    If the cost is the issue, perhaps you're not happy with some of the other costs in the budget that are preventing an inexpensive, mostly gifted trip to attend a wedding. So bring all of those out to the negotiating table. Pretty quickly, when the predominantly taking party starts getting hit with some equalizing they realize how it might be possible to make things happen without giving up their own sacred cows.

    As far as leaving, you need to leave for more than a few hours to have a permanent effect. It should be and indefinite leaving, where you need a certain list of conditions to be filled before returning. The list should be along the lines of:
    --mutually agreed upon solutions to problems
    --no anger outbursts
    --etc etc etc, and
    --a period of time where you date and these things are being addressed to the satisfaction of both parties.

    Often it takes as much as 6 months for a separation to have been effective. The biggest regret most women have who separate is going back too soon and everything just went back to the way it was.
     
  7. Lucky9

    Lucky9 New Member

    56
    +21
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    Non-Denom
    Married
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    That's the problem....even without finalizing our discussion and literally coming to an agreement or a solution, or even hearing my literal side or rebuttal to all of his demands and concerns, he's already set on "I'm not going" since he's told our two youngest, just today, that we aren't going.

    So there's no reasoning with this man. There's no compromising, because as I've tried over and over to do, and to explain to him, that is what we SHOULD be doing, he insists, there is no compromise when we both disagree and therefore it is on him no matter what, to make the decision, whether I like it or not.

    I say, screw that. Sorry, but I'm done with trying to reason with this insane man who thinks HE is the boss of me. I'm furious that I said all I said to him and he STILL doesn'tn get it. Like I told him, which apparently he ignored or didn't hear, I AM DONE. And if that means I leave with the kids to Texas, while he's gone at work, so be it.
     
  8. christine40

    christine40 Well-Known Member

    +6,062
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    @Lucky9
    didn't know your trip's 2400 miles
    lot of hours of driving w/o another person to share driving
    don't know how old your children are but with bathroom & food breaks, trips with kids take much longer

    so be safe!

    any possibility of parents paying for you to fly?
    for husband's trip, we both decided flying safer than for him to drive 7 hrs all by himself
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  9. Lucky9

    Lucky9 New Member

    56
    +21
    United States
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    No, the trip is with two vehicles and 4 drivers, and we space out each way over 2 days. Yes it is a lot of driving and it will be shared by the all 4 adults going. Kids have games, video and each other to keep occupied. We've done this trip before, exactly the same way, in 2007, when I was pregnant and my boys were 3 and 5. It was not a problem then...but now it is.

    It's stupid. Really really stupid, that he has a problem now. And it's petty, reasons that weren't issues before. And it's insulting that his stance religiously, is literally interfering with my rights as my childrens mother.
     
  10. Lucky9

    Lucky9 New Member

    56
    +21
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    Non-Denom
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    That's the problem. There is no agreement. He made the decision, after telling me it's what he, as the leader and head of the home decided, he was going to do. Despite my feelings, despite my opinions, despite my counsel, despite my objections, which still continue to this day. He does what ever he wants...and I just have to shut up, because "headship" and all. But if I want to do something I think is in the best interest of all of us (including him), he tells me no and then gives me all sorts of reasons that he deems are valid. And of course, his reasons are the only ones that matter, even though he tells me mine do too...he's already made up his mind, so my opinion is dead in the water. He's proven that already. So the religion thing is something I can't even discuss with him, because he just gets mad, throws his tantrum (exactly as you've outlined that tantrums go, above) and we get nowhere, except him getting his way, still. Because now, our two youngest are confirmed Catholics and according to him, would have to denounce the faith in order to go to any other church. And the whole reason they agreed to be confirmed, was because they felt coerced and manipulated into it, because dad has that manipulative way, and they knew he'd be upset if they didn't go along with what he wanted. Both have told me they wished they could still attend my church once in a while, and they felt they were somewhat forced into deciding to go to his church. I've always said they should be able to go to both of ours...but my husband refuses to hear me...or......listen to reason. His mind is made up and that's all the matters. No compromise is possible because he thinks it's HIS decision to make.....ya know..."headship" and all. He has basically shut me out completely on this issue.

    And I'm sure I mentioned it before, but he often makes rude, mocking and criticizing comments about Protestants in general (which includes me) and in front of the kids, and it hurts, but he doesn't care. He has obvious disdain for anyone who is not an SSPX Catholic, as he is. He infers that anyone not of his EXACT religion is lesser than, and probably not going to Heaven, etc. He's basically said as much. So how do I make it work when he has that attitude and refuses to even respect my beliefs or faith at all? This is what we knew for the first 11 years of our marriage, as we both went to the same church and believed the same things, and practiced the same way. Then HE took the path toward Catholicism, and decided to go on his own there...and then force our 2 younger kids to go too. Luckily he allowed our oldest to decide, and he chose to go with me. But my husband tells me lately, that I'm lucky he doesn't force me to go to his church, and that he could if he wanted to, but he knows that isn't the way to do it, so he won't. It makes me sick to my stomach at how chauvenistic he's become since he joined that church. He was not like that before. He was not so legalistic and locked on following all these rules and regulations that his church has put forth. And he never reads his Bible. He always just reads his Missile, so I don't even think he's getting actual scriptures. But he acts so smug and superior to me, preaching at me like he's totally in line with God and I'm so beneath him, because I'm just a "Protestant". And he pushes, no....he beats me over the head metaphorically, with all this Biblical follow the rules crap....insisting I have to do this and I have to do that...but totally either ignoring the parts HE is supposed to do, or twisting it totally out of context to fulfill HIS needs, HIS wants. It always comes back to HIM being served first.

    So I sit here, time and again, praying over all this and knowing in my heart and my soul that this is wrong. I shouldn't feel this way. A wife should not feel this way. A husband should not treat his wife that way. I feel that if a husband has to constantly berate his wife with biblical verses to get her in line with what he thinks is Biblical rules to follow, than HE is not doing HIS job correctly, as Jesus has instructed him to do, biblically. I remember Greg Laurie (of Harvest Mnistries) has often said, you focus on what YOU are supposed to do, not what your mate is supposed to do. You take care of your responsibilities to God, not theirs. So that's what I try to do. I don't ever remind him or point it out to him, what HIS role is supposed to be....unless he asks me. I just try to do my part, what I'm supposed to do, and it is harder and harder every day, when my husband has become demanding, to the point of controlling and pushing his own needs and desires under the guise of godly works. It's wrong. I KNOW it is. THIS is not what marriage is supposed to be. I know that and it breaks my heart, because I feel trapped.

    That's the point. We don't have the funds to rent a car or pay for airline tickets (when tickets would be over $600 roundtrip per person). And why would we do that, when my van is free and capable, to use? If you think it's a point to prove that other solutions aren't feesible, how does that help my cause, when we end up back at square one, which he has a problem with to begin with? And as it is my parents are covering the cost for fuel. And his car is not an option because it's in worse shape mechanically than mine, its older and has triple the miles than mine. Not to mention, won't hold the people going. The whole reason I'm taking my van, is because it's newer and has less miles and is road safe and can seat 7 people. We have 4, maybe 5, adults and 5 kids going. So with my van and my parents vehicle, we would be able to carry all the people together.

    There is nothing there to compromise with, since the only other cost I'm paying for is our food, which I'm paying for regardless of whether we go or stay, we all have to eat no matter what, right? So not sure where the compromise on that would be. Just insanity that he doesn't recognize the free trip the kids and I can take. This opportunity to spend time with my family (see my sister and my niece whom I rarely get to see because they live so far away and don't visit us very often). A chance to make memories with my family and kids. And a chance we wouldn't otherwise get to take, to get away and actually TAKE a vacation, instead of what we usually do, a staycation.

    This whole thing is insane. He's so legalistic in his approach to this and keeps pushing his hatred for my cousins church. She's apparently getting married in a Vatican 2 church. This is not the same religion as I, since I am non-denominational. And the way I see it, is Jesus would not have a problem with this at all. Jesus didn't discriminate or turn his back on people who had different beliefs or ways of doing things. I just can't understand how absolute he is in his thinking that HIS church is the ONLY real church that Jesus recognizes and all others are heretic and evil. How does this thinking align with what Christ taught? Because I've read a good portion of the Bible and this way of thinking seems TOTALLY contradictive to Gods word. It's antithetical, if not outright heretical in itself, IMO. But he refuses to see otherwise.

    And just to be clear, when we got married, we were both non-denominational and got married in a regular Christian (4-square) church by a pastor we had gone thru marital counseling with. So he hasn't ever experienced any Catholic wedding, Vatican 1 or Vatican 2. And other than what he's being fed by his church, his parents and his own Googling, he seems more hateful toward other faiths, than non-believers sometimes are. Even hateful against me and my faith. It goes without saying, our home is divided.

    I tried talking to him more about it this evening, and my emotions got the better of me and we ended up yelling at each other. I was trying to keep calm and talk to him about why he again told the younger kids it was a no on the trip, but he claims he was apologizing to them for my outburst the other night and said my outburst was because he was still saying no to the trip. I wanted to make sure he understood that I'm not on board with that and still want to go. I wanted to know that he heard me the other night and that he understood I meant what I'd said. He of course, focused in on the fact that I told him I have one leg in our marriage and one leg out, because I'm so unhappy and miserable with the way things are. And instead of focusing on WHY I feel that way, he takes issue with that, saying it's a threat. But I wasn't threatening him, I was explaining to him how i feel. And he keeps insisting it's a threat and he'd never use our relationship to threaten that, and then he throws out, he meant his vows and marriage is for life, etc etc. And I agree, when I got married, I meant it for life too...hence why I've been putting up with so much crap from him, because I keep praying and hoping it'll get better. But it's not getting better, and just trying to tell him how I feel, and he isn't hearing me. He's dead set we're never getting separated or divorced - he won't allow it. I've told him before that I was in a place where I felt like I wanted to be separated and he just got upset and told me never to threaten him. He doesn't stop to ask or find out WHY I feel that way, or what has made me feel that way or get to that point. He just sees it as a threat to us being together and then he gets upset and starts throwing a tantrum. But it's not a threat. Im TRYING to telling him, that is where I am at, mentally and emotionally. He's not getting it.

    In an earlier conversation a couple weeks ago, I mentioned that the whole religion thing makes me feel like he took my rights as our kids mother, away, because our youngest two now can only go to his church and he refuses to let them ever go with me or participate in any religious activity with me, because he is against my "Protestant" status. I said, I feel like I'd have more rights if I went and got custody rights thru a court of law. So to him, that was a threat that I was going to sue him for custody. And so he yelled at me never to threaten him again, even though I explained it wasn't a threat, it was just trying to make a point of what I am feeling.

    It's obvious we are not on the same page, but it's like we are reading from different books. He isn't hearing me tell him years of animosity and resentment have built up because of his bad behaviors over the years, his verbal, mental and psychological abuse have taken a toll on my trust...and that takes time to rebuild. Not to mention that now, instead of verbal abuse, it's controlling abuse and he is refusing to see it. I was trying to tell him, albeit loudly, that it's not just something I can "let go of", because it's still happening...and he kept talking over me, telling me basically that I'm Satan and calling me Lucifer, for trying to tell him how I feel.

    Then he said if he told the kids they weren't going to Texas, they wouldn't go. And I said, yes, they would, because they told me they want to go as badly as I do. So he gets up and runs thru the house, telling the younger ones, they aren't going to Texas because he said so. And of course, they nodded in agreement. But as soon as he walked away, they looked at me and said "we're still going though, right mom"? It's like I'm dealing with a 5 year old maniac, who hungers for ultimate control and TO BE RIGHT. He tells me it's not about control, then he pulls that? How is that NOT about control?

    So that's where we ended the night. Him calling me Lucifer and me telling him I really don't like him.

    And I believe his reasons and concerns about this trip are....when it comes right down to it....about control, even though he claims it's not feelings or desires at all, it's just logic that he's using. By what logic is it, that a husband, who claims to love his wife, trying to do everything he can and find every little tiny reason possible, to hinder her from being with her family, knowing her desires, knowing her wishes, knowing he is insulting her and crushing her spirit by doing so, but still insisting his reasons stand and his say goes? I'm so absolutely livid, I could scream. He has no clue what sacrifice is. He has no clue what being selfless is. He has no clue what laying down your life, for your wife is. Because he's never been willing to do that....and continues not to, either.

    So what do I do with that? What happens when I find his reasons petty and invalid? And what happens when I tell him his concerns are insulting to me and disrespectful to me and try to counter point his concerns, and he tells me my counter points don't matter?

    As much as I hate to be a b-word....do I have to literally smile and nod until the day of the trip, and then leave as soon as he leaves for work? He can't stop us then.
     
  11. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
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    After that update, he lost the benefit of the doubt. It is apparent he will not change unless you take firm measures to enforce a change in how he treats you. None of his behavior is acceptable. Your instincts are correct about your marriage and this situation is not survivable.

    I have a concern about your taking the children across state lines without his permission. You may want to consult with an attorney prior to leaving to make sure he couldn't press charges for kidnapping. Sometimes bullies do not cede control of their targets without fighting dirty.

    He will not change unless you enforce your unwillingness to be abused. Unfortunately it seems that means you will need to file for divorce, which will use the force of the law to make him give you equal footing at the negotiating table. It would be my prayer that he would realize the old way is unavailable to him anymore and that would cause him to change his behaviors so the marriage could be restored.

    So, if it were me, I'd see a lawyer TODAY so you can file for divorce asap. Never threaten or suggest you will file for divorce - just do it. Until the divorce can be filed, be the sweetest wife ever (without accepting abuse) and meet his needs the same as you would if you were in love with him, so you part ways with him remembering how great marriage to you could be. Basically, you're using this time to sell him on changing so the marriage can be saved.

    The day he is served, I'd change the locks on the house and put his stuff in a box outside with a letter attached to it along these lines:

    "Dearest H: I loved the person I married and would love to be married to him forever, and to raise our children together in an intact home. However, I can no longer survive in a marriage with your current behaviors. Accordingly, I need to separate from you for the sake of my health and in hopes of a better future.

    Based on your behavior and comments during our discussion on July 1st, I'm moving forward with the assumption you are not interested in a marriage of mutual, extraordinary care with me. If you are willing to reconsider, here are my conditions for reconciliation:
    a) .... (anger management)
    b) .... (marital faithfulness during our separation)
    c) .... (etc.; I can help you with these if you would like me to)

    Please let me know when you'd like to pick up the rest of your belongings and I'll schedule a police visit so they can be present when you gather what you need from the home. I would appreciate it if you would not try to enter the house today so the children will be spared from a police scene.

    With all my love,
    Lucky9"

    If he tries to break into the house call the police.

    He has no respect for any enforcement of your human dignity that you might try to effect. He will only get the message if the weight of the law is behind you. The reasons I recommend actually filing for divorce instead of just separating is he needs to understand you need the real deal; he needs to see the ultimate consequence is on its way unless he chooses to change. If you simply separate he may change what he needs to in order to get you back and then go back to his old ways. Putting on a sham for a while until he can get his old life back is much easier than facing hard, cold, legal consequences with a third party (a lawyer, and police if necessary) preventing him from manipulating you.

    I'd let the process of the divorce proceed along, but if he is interested in reconciling, you could allow him to work on the marriage in the meantime. He will show his sincerity if he does not fight you in the divorce negotiations (keep your demands fair but look after the security of your children) and steps up to work on your conditions for return.

    If you feel he is sincere and willing to change, you could start dating again after he has finished his anger management course. You need some tangible actions to show he is interested in changing, a down payment if you will, so finishing the anger management course would be the minimum threshold I'd have for letting the process start.

    Let him know you would look forward to dating, but at the right time (which would be after his anger management course). I would not allow him to return to the marriage until he has demonstrated these changes for some period of time, perhaps 6 months. It will probably take him 6 months to work on himself before that and to experience the reality that his poor behavior has wrought, so the total time you are separated/divorced would be at least a year.

    You may want to allow the divorce to proceed until it is finalized while his changes are in process so you have the backing of the law for an equal partnership.

    You could remarry once he has demonstrated a pattern of marriage worthy behaviors for a long enough time. In your case, I would first draw up a prenup so he never forgets that his marriage is conditional upon him providing marriage worthy behaviors, and you will not endure another season of what you have now. I'm generally against prenups but in your case I would recommend one as a deterrent for this happening again.

    If this is the direction you choose to proceed, I'd recommend you post at marriagebuilders.com where a team of seasoned volunteers will walk you step by step through this process (for free) under the supervision of a wonderful Christian psychologist whose life's work and passion is to save marriages IF they can be saved. Some marriages cannot be saved. My outline above is a rough sketch to give you the general idea.
     
  12. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
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    During the process you face, in whatever fashion you choose to proceed, remember to always take the high road with respect to how you talk about your husband to your children. At ages 11 through 17, they are old enough to figure out the truth for themselves.

    Don't allow him to lie to them about you without a calm, fact-only response (no opinion comments about him, only a truthful recitation of events), but don't alienate them from their father.

    As austere of a person as he can be, they do still need to know their father is there for them.

    Let him do the alienating if he chooses to, not you.

    If you will look back with regrets, don't let that regret be that you talked the kids against their father. It might feel satisfying in the moment for you, but it is damaging long term for the kids.
     
  13. Lucky9

    Lucky9 New Member

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    Wow, that's harsh...and escalated quickly. I'm not even close to that solution, as that is nowhere near where my head is at.

    I am dealing with a hot head, to be sure. He reacts before thinking and often says mean and nasty things, in the heat of the moment, when he feels hurt. It's unfortunate.

    After cooling down and reading something I wrote to him last night, explaining my feelings more in depth and my desires and rebuttals to his concerns, even though he inititially freaked out, he is making efforts to try and work through this and has asked me what I think we should do, fomr where we are now.

    I told him, first we need to pray together. Then, since he had suggested it before, if need be, we could go to his Priest with this marriage, even though I don't feel comfortable or that a Priest is a qualified enough counselor for marriage counseling, maybe my husband will listen to his Priest, at least to get him on the proper understanding of submission and headship, because I believe wholeheartedly, my huband has an incorrect interpretation of what these mean and how these are to be applied in a marriage.

    I am not a heartless person who can just shut him out without a word and lock the doors. That isn't me at all and just the mere thought of that, is overwhelmingly uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I feel, if my husband is willing to make efforts to get better and fix things, I at least have to try. .​
     
  14. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
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    You've been trying for quite a few years, and keep riding this same circle. I did the same thing for 25 years until my marriage was so far gone that there was nothing left of me or it.

    Re-read what you wrote about his reactions and words from your talk. That is not a man who will change unless something changes him.

    Unless you take a different action, you will not get a different result and you will still be here two years from now with the same problem.

    I'm sorry, sister, about your situation. I was you at one time, and I ran around and around the same wheel for 25 years with a husband who's behavior was also quite outrageous. He would give me crumbs to hope for a better future but once I settled back in, he would keep going back to his behaviors. If I would have known to separate earlier to enforce change it probably would have saved my marriage.

    Separation is a very effective technique to save marriages when one partner will not engage in a mutual relationship of extraordinary care. They need to come to realize that they cannot not invoke terrible behaviors while being entitled to take the relationship for granted.
     
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  15. christine40

    christine40 Well-Known Member

    +6,062
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    it's really, really difficult for anyone (man or woman) to change especially years into a marriage
    as it's too easy to go back to the familiar

    people in general avoid change

    have seen posters who've asked for help and wanted a change for themselves, and talked about making that change, determined to make that change
    (had to do with themselves, no one else)
    and then months later ask for same help again and they did nothing! (not on CF, dif forum)



    making BIG changes is so hard for many adults
    we get lazy and won't do the work
    don't know if your husband will want to do the work? or if you two can work together to create changes? have you tried working with a Christian counsellor?
    with God's help though, the impossible becomes possible....

    2Timothy1:7
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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  16. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
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    Ah, so he gets to set the terms under which advice will be provided. From his priest it will be according to SSPX doctrines.

    Conceding to get advice in his territory may not actually suit you very well. First, the priest's client is his SSPX doctrine (not you) and getting the proceeds of your husband's marriage (your children) into the church. The church's doctrine says it will agree with your husband's position on SSPX-only religious exposure.
    "Although the Church, using her power, may permit mixed marriages, nevertheless the Catholic party, as divine law dictates, must in the conceded mixed marriage avoid dangers to the faith and indifferentism, must always carefully see to the Catholic education of the children, and lovingly and prudently try to bring the spouse to the Catholic truth."​

    Otherwise, what do you think his SSPX priest will advise? Are you prepared to be told:

    a) The purpose of the marriage is to have children. No birth control.
    "Of itself, furthermore, and independently of the intentions of the contracting parties, marriage has its own divinely established objective ends.[19] Among these, if careful consideration is given to the divine institution of marriage itself and to nature itself as well as to the magisterium of the Church,[20] the primary end of marriage is only the procreation and education of children,[21] even if a particular marriage is not fruitful"

    " Similarly, all means and arts by which in the use of marriage, by human effort, the procreation of children is directly impeded must be considered intrinsically and seriously evil.[64] Conjugal onanism and formal cooperation for the same purpose is always seriously prohibited."

    "For this reason, the Sacred Synod, while it most urgently exhorts all to provide as much effective help as possible to families burdened with a number of children, at the same time severely condemns the recommending and the spread of shameful contraceptive means in order to limit children; instead of defending the good of peoples, as is sometimes thought today, they corrupt the whole social order."
    b) That the husband's decision on the children has primacy over the wife:
    "Although the woman is subject to the man, as a mother she has her own authority over the children, an authority subordinate to that of the father."
    c) That you should listen to and obey your husband:

    "Although as human persons the man and the woman have the same dignity before God and enjoy full equality of rights in the matters that constitute the essence of the marriage contract, still the man naturally presides over the whole family,[97] over the wife as the companion to be especially honored and loved, and over the children who are to be nourished and educated. This natural primacy over the wife is confirmed and elevated by the sacrament of marriage,[98] as the Apostle teaches: "Wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord; for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church.... As the Church is subject to Christ, so wives should be subject in all things to their husbands" (Eph 5:22-24). "

    "It is mistaken, therefore, to deny the divine origin of the family and to subvert the order which God set within it or to remove it from the control and influence of the divine order and of the Church. And therefore this Sacred Synod, while it defends the rights of the woman, rejects that evil form of emancipation by which, whether as a daughter or a wife or a mother, her proper nature, function, and role are disfigured by some false view of her equality with the man."​

    c) Here's your role in the family:
    "In the family, further, the woman is as it were the heart, endowed with her own distinct qualities and gifts, so that she may sweetly and effectively arrange everything for the good of the whole domestic group.[101] "​


    Preparatory schema on marriage and family: 2

    Well, that's not how he views himself. He views himself as entitled to control you and your children. You noticed this change come over him when he became dedicated to the SSPX. Where do you think he gets all of the things he says to you? He is quoting SSPX doctrines.

    But you have two different objectives. Your objective is to stop your suffering. His objective is to maintain his control.

    I highly recommend you get the book "Why does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft.

    Why Does He Do That? Quotes by Lundy Bancroft
     
  17. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
    United States
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    Dear sister, it's important for you to realize he is experiencing almost NONE of the misery and suffering you are experiencing.

    You are the one suffering under his control; he is the one enjoying his control.

    His discomfort comes when you push back harder than he would like, but as he has demonstrated, he's ready to get really ugly to deter you from trying to break out of the zone he has assigned to you. He likes your zone and his goal is to get you to stay there. His comfort is served by your misery.
     
  18. Lucky9

    Lucky9 New Member

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    It comes down to this - and if anyone can give me scriptures and literal passages that help back it up, I'd like to know, does the husband literally have the "final decision making authority" in decisions that can't be agreed upon? And is his word the end all/be all and I must submit, no matter what? Obviously, if he's asking me to sin, than the answer would be no. I get that. But I'm asking does he have the right in THIS scenario to force me to submit, no matter what? And doesn't that negate the whole Christ-like submission thing, if he's "demanding that I comply" with his answer?

    This is what he's told me about his "decision making":

    Update: So we're still at an empasse. I haven't the balls when face to face with him, to just tell him I'm going, that's it. On one hand I want to just go, but I feel a sense in my gut that'd be wrong to just go against his wishes, even though I feel very strongly that his wishes are selfish and controlling. I too have to answer to God, and maybe that gut instinct making me feel it's wrong, is Gods voice? After all, submission does mean to submit, regardless of how unGodly I feel he's being. I understand it to be an unconditional thing regardless of whether he's behaving how he should or not. But on the other hand, I also feel if I just continue to submit to what I feel is a genuine selfish leadership, that just enforces it even more, and could even be sinful on my part. But where is the line and how do I know? Am I just not trusting God enough?

    Despite how much my husband KNOWS it is upsetting me and how hurt I am by his refusal to just give me his blessing for me to go, he keeps insisting he hasn't made a decision yet, and he's not sure what it's going to be, but his concerns still stand. This after all my pleas and (what I feel, to be very valid) counter arguments to his concerns. I also feel his concerns, while somewhat valid, are also very petty, and excuses for him to use, to tell me no. He claims his concerns trump any desires I have. Apparently, his personal aversion to traffic, crowds, driving in weather, holiday travel, my neices Catholic church not being "his brand", etc...are affecting his decision, that much is obvious. And I've told him, I feel very insulted that he is literally telling me he doesn't trust me at all, nor is he allowing me my rights as a mother to take our kids somewhere with family, since he's holding onto his concerns in those areas. Nothing I've said thus far, no amount of communicating, sharing my feelings, desires, wishes, concerns, pouring out my heart, etc, seems to make a difference to this guy...it's all about HIM and what HE feels, and he claims he's doing it all under Gods direction. I still feel no matter how much Godly influence he claims to be getting in his decisions, that so far, he's still acting selfishly. And based on the things he's said, I feel he's going to end up negating me going on this trip because of his selfish feelings about it, because he keeps telling me there's a decision made here in there in the near future, that I'm not going to like. A decision made, probably because we couldn't agree on it. But he can't be afraid of me, he can't be afraid of anything except for upsetting God. So all he can do, is just make sure he's a good man to me and a good husband and a good father, and try to make the best decisions possible, if we find ourselves at a fork in the decision-making Road..

    I feel like he's relegated me to being the oldest child, the way he's going about this. Sure he claims to hear me and he discussed with me about how I feel, my opinions and thoughts and what not. But what's the point, when he's still sticking to his stupid logic claiming HIS reasons are more legit and HIS reasons matter more than what I desire. And then worse, he's holding out on answering me, making me wait, kind of holding it over my head that it's still undecided, teasing me with it, making jokes about "decision making", knowing how badly I want to go, how important it is and how much it means to me (and my family) to go. He tells me on one hand, he wants to be the loving, caring husband, putting me first and serving and loving me as Christ did the church...and yet, he's totally discounting (or ignoring) my wishes, desires, opinions and needs. He tells me that "it doesn't matter what my family thinks or wants, he does not care". He told me basically that what I want, desire or need, doesn't matter, because "his concerns". I've told him that a "no" answer would cause resentment and animosity, moreso than already exists, not just with me, but with our kids, and he doesn't care. And he wonders why I want to separate from him and why the kids can't wait to get away from him. How am I supposed to feel or act, if he's dead set on not allowing me to go? Am I supposed to just suck it up? Because I'm totally stressed over this, totally depressed thinking he's going to disappoint me, and thinking how can a No, be a Godly answer to me? Why would God not want me to go be a part of a family wedding?

    Everyone I've talked to about this, people who know me, people who don't, all say the same thing. He is being selfish. He is being controlling. He is not being a loving, Christ-like husband. They all agree, I should be able to go to my families wedding, considering everything I've detailed thus far. They see no reason why I should be held back. They also agree his reasons are minute. And everywhere I search for how husbands and wives should interact in a Godly marriage, it seems to me (especially taking the model of my parents into account, as that is the image of marriage I respect and long to emulate), they work as a team, a unit, coming together equally to discuss wants, desires, needs, etc. And I believe the husband is to put the wife first, before his needs, wants and desires - laying down his life, if necessary. If she wanted something, his first response should not be a "No"...it should be a "Yes", unless there was some financial or scheduling conflict or something that would cause consequence to the family as a whole. And my husband does not see it that way. His initial response to anything I want, is always a "No". Then after talking about it, sometimes he gets over himself, and his opinions, and his ideas of thinking, and eventually can say yes and agree. But it's a constant fight over everything I want to do, when it's something he does not. This is a pattern that has been happening over other things, not just this trip.

    Of course, then he wants a pat on the back for every "yes" he's given...it's just exhausting. It's scorekeeping and I loathe it. I can see that he's trying to be a better man, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that he has worked hard on controlling his temper and mood swings (he's Bipolar-Stage 2) and that he has done a better job communicating to me and treating me better. But I feel there is this somewhat chauvenistic approach to our marriage lately, and it feels totally out of place and wrong. I feel like he's either being taught, instructed or advised that his "headship" means he takes more control over me, or at least, that is how he's applying it. I don't feel "loved", I don't even feel trusted, and it certaily doesn't feel like a serving, sacrificial love, at all. It does not feel Christ-like. I feel like he's literally using scripture to use it over me and to control me to submit to his will, all under the guise of it being "Gods will". And his response to my objections, or concerns is typical, "Trust God, if you don't trust me", which is something you can't argue....and just feels more like manipulation, than it does Godly leadership.

    Counseling - ha. That's laughable. He won't go to my church or pastor, because I'm "protestant". And I even asked him about going to one of his Priests for advice/counsel on this, but he said there's no need, because he just is going to do what God tells him....whatever that means. Truth be told, after 20 years of experience with him, I don't trust his relationship with Christ to be that strong and I don't believe he has a true connection to hear Gods word, when all he reads is his stupid Missil and never the actual Bible. And I've heard his prayers, and it's all the prewritten, memorized prayers he gets out of his missil. I'm not claiming to know his heart and I may not be there for all of his prayers, but by their fruits you shall know them, right? I'm just saying, by his fruits, I don't detect much of a personal relationship with Christ. And if he's refusing to get any counsel from his own Priest, because he can do it all on his own...where does that leave me?

    I'm venting here....and I have given this issue to God, since we're called to cast all our cares and concerns to him. And I'm continually praying....but this issue is still upsetting and depressing me. It's like a big elephant in the room and talking about it, only distresses us both more and seems to further solidify his stance. I almost don't want him to give me an answer because I fear I would have to either accept it or defy it. I just wish he'd relent.
     
  19. snoochface

    snoochface Meet the new boss -- same as the old boss.

    +2,664
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    You've got to stop talking to everyone - including strangers on the internet - looking for justification to go on your trip. You either go, or you don't go. You can get all the scripture in the world (and you will) that says he is not the final arbiter of all decisions, and you can get all the scripture in the world (and you will) that says you should submit to him in all things. But none of that is going to matter to YOUR marriage.

    Your husband feels one way, you feel another, he won't budge, and you won't stand up to him. The problem isn't with knowing whether he is right or you are right. The problem is that YOU are not happy with HIS attitude, but you won't do anything about it. The internet, your friends, and your family, can't be your Holy Spirit. You have to make decisions for yourself, within your marriage, about your marriage. If you don't have the guts to confront him, you really should consider counseling, by yourself, to figure out what you want to do about your unhappiness with your husband.

    I really wish someone else could give us all the answers we want, but ultimately you're the only one who can do that for yourself.
     
  20. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

    +1,140
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    Lucky, what did you think of this book?
     
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