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traingosorry

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LoveJC9,

Even with all the debate going on in this thread about who should be the head and who should submit, I can understand about being submissive to someone who is encouraging you, uplifting you and guiding you. What I've always been taught was the man, as the 'leader', is supposed to love the woman as Christ loved the church.

I don't often speak up in the boards but I do a lot of reading. I have read just about all that you've been through in the last while and I am worried for you. In any good, healthy situation, I would support your belief in submitting to your Pastor. If I felt he was nurturing, and truly helping you to build your life again, I would not argue with you about submitting to him. But I don't feel this is a healthy situation and all of what you have said has left me with a worry that there is more for him to benefit from than you. Someone like that is not fit to be a leader.

By all means, be grateful to your pastor; respect him while you are living in his house and repay his kindness however you can (in reason), but please believe that as a creation of God, you have been given logic. If at any time your pastor ever makes you feel as though you are anything less without him, or that you are not capable of being a strong and logical woman, please get out. You are strong and capable of doing so much on your own; take control, take responsibility for your own life and LIVE.
 
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Gwenyfur

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I'm glad that you at least recognize that the Bible did significantly note the importance of women in Jesus' eyes. There are even other examples besides the fact that two women found the tomb.

But this is where the common misconception lies. Paul is not telling women to be mindless robots that blindly do whatever men tell them to do. The only passage that would ever even imply that is where he says that women aren't to speak up in a church gathering.
The two things that get sooo mixed up in all this are these:
1. Women are to submit to men. Not true at all! You have to recognize that Paul was writing his letters to Christians. Christian women are called by God to submit to Christian men. Or in other words, women that are seeking the Lord's will for them are called by God to submit to men who are seeking the Lord's will for them. And the only reason that women can faithfully submit to the leadership of a man at all is because he's seeking the Lord in everything he does.

2. People somehow think that women get the short end of the stick becasue they're called to submit. First of all, men are called by God to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it. If loving someone sacrificially to the point of being willing to die for them isn't submissive in nature, I don't know what is (I'm hoping that if I keep posting this, more people will catch onto this idea :p). Also, the Bible tells us that we are to have the mind of Christ "who did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very form of a servant..." In that same passage, it also says that we're to consider others better than ourselves. So submission and service to anyone should be considered an opportunity to pursue Christ-likeness. I'm personally so excited for the opportunity to love and serve a woman in a dating relationship and, eventually, marriage. This whole idea that submission somehow equals drawing the short straw is all rooted in pride.

And I wouldn't expect you to buy into any of this because I don't expect non-Christians to behave like Christians. (This isn't meant in a 'holier-than-thou' way at all. I really don't expect people that aren't Christians to seek to live by what the Bible teaches.)

It's okay...:D I was a Christian, for many years...grew up learning Scripture and Doctrine at the feet of my Grandfather and Grandmother (Preacher and converted orthodox Jew ... she used to say we were "messianic" before it was a "movement" ^_^). I was a church pianist for 7 years during my time as an adult in christianity...
I understand Scripture...even to the point of being a site advisor here on CF up until a year ago...I get it...
I just no longer believe 95% of it...

You don't need "disclaimers" when debating me ;) it's okay :)

So you think.
It's called free will dude...even your God doesn't mess with that ;)
 
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razeontherock

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I can understand about being submissive to someone who is encouraging you, uplifting you and guiding you. What I've always been taught was the man, as the 'leader', is supposed to love the woman as Christ loved the church.

In any good, healthy situation, I would support your belief in submitting to your Pastor. If I felt he was nurturing, and truly helping you to build your life again, I would not argue with you about submitting to him. But I don't feel this is a healthy situation and all of what you have said has left me with a worry that there is more for him to benefit from than you. Someone like that is not fit to be a leader.

as a creation of God, you have been given logic. If at any time your pastor ever makes you feel as though you are anything less without him, or that you are not capable of being a strong and logical woman, please get out.

take responsibility for your own life and LIVE.

:thumbsup: Much love to the OP :hug: Be careful Sister.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given" James 1:5

This is not a gender specific promise ...
 
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razeontherock

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It would matter if it actually said that. But it doesn't. That's just some man's sexist misinterpretation of Scripture.

What the Bible actually says is that in Christ Jesus there is neither male nor female. It says that both men and women are created in the image of God.

By not giving the whole counsel of G-d on the subject, you are adding confusion to an already difficult situation. Why do you prefer to hide the other aspects of His wisdom on the matter? Surely that can't help our OP.
 
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razeontherock

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Funny...the KJV (most published and read version of the Scriptures) states that Eve:
Gen 3:6
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (emphasis mine)

Can you explain how this is responsive to my post #69, on p 7? I don't see how it does anything but strengthens what I said, but that doesn't seem to be your intended point. What'd I miss?
 
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razeontherock

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How does delivering an imperative message to Eve put Adam in a position of authority or give him authority over her?

Yes, THIS is the important point - excellent question!

It doesn't give him authority over her. It gives Him authority over her! ;) Get it? This is the ordained chain of command, which Paul reinforces beyond gender:

1Cr 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

This very neatly excludes all forms of abuse, manipulation, controlling, etc etc
 
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lostaquarium

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This is such a wise and gentle post...

LoveJC9,

Even with all the debate going on in this thread about who should be the head and who should submit, I can understand about being submissive to someone who is encouraging you, uplifting you and guiding you. What I've always been taught was the man, as the 'leader', is supposed to love the woman as Christ loved the church.

I don't often speak up in the boards but I do a lot of reading. I have read just about all that you've been through in the last while and I am worried for you. In any good, healthy situation, I would support your belief in submitting to your Pastor. If I felt he was nurturing, and truly helping you to build your life again, I would not argue with you about submitting to him. But I don't feel this is a healthy situation and all of what you have said has left me with a worry that there is more for him to benefit from than you. Someone like that is not fit to be a leader.

By all means, be grateful to your pastor; respect him while you are living in his house and repay his kindness however you can (in reason), but please believe that as a creation of God, you have been given logic. If at any time your pastor ever makes you feel as though you are anything less without him, or that you are not capable of being a strong and logical woman, please get out. You are strong and capable of doing so much on your own; take control, take responsibility for your own life and LIVE.
 
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razeontherock

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This is a beautifully put, LOGICAL, and as far as I can tell, complete address of the subject:

Also, the curse was not that man would rule over his wife. The curse was that woman would desire her husband's authoritative position, BUT EVEN SO, he would still hold that position nevertheless. Just wanted to make that clear. The "head" and "helper" roles were clearly established before the fall, and the curse was that woman would want the head role, but that man would still obtain it (if he can help it).

I'll add the whole power / control struggle thing is a trap, carefully laid by our enemy. We can be free of it ONLY because He became a curse for us. :bow:
It still takes skill to stand fast in that liberty.
 
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Sunset2009

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It would matter if it actually said that. But it doesn't. That's just some man's sexist misinterpretation of Scripture.

What the Bible actually says is that in Christ Jesus there is neither male nor female. It says that both men and women are created in the image of God.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bible does say that man is head of his wife, as Christ is head of the Church. There is no way you can misinterpret that, because Christ will always be head of his Church. I'm sorry you have such a problem with all the MANY Scriptures that talk about a husband's authority over his family, and a wife's submission, but it is in the Word, and there is simply no getting around it. To say that it is a sexist misinterpretation is just plain heresy.

In Jesus Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile... Meaning the obvious... He doesn't love anybody more than anybody else. :doh: To use that Scripture as a way of justifying a Cafeteria Christianity mentality (I'll believe in this, this, ooo, not this, this, no, not this) is just stupid. I would highly suggest getting your theology straightened out and learning how to read the Bible correctly.
 
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Brad2009

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bible does say that man is head of his wife, as Christ is head of the Church. There is no way you can misinterpret that, because Christ will always be head of his Church. I'm sorry you have such a problem with all the MANY Scriptures that talk about a husband's authority over his family, and a wife's submission, but it is in the Word, and there is simply no getting around it. To say that it is a sexist misinterpretation is just plain heresy.

Spot on IMO. It is a plain and simple scripture, its not complicated.
 
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white dove

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bible does say that man is head of his wife, as Christ is head of the Church. There is no way you can misinterpret that, because Christ will always be head of his Church. I'm sorry you have such a problem with all the MANY Scriptures that talk about a husband's authority over his family, and a wife's submission, but it is in the Word, and there is simply no getting around it. To say that it is a sexist misinterpretation is just plain heresy.

In Jesus Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile... Meaning the obvious... He doesn't love anybody more than anybody else. :doh: To use that Scripture as a way of justifying a Cafeteria Christianity mentality (I'll believe in this, this, ooo, not this, this, no, not this) is just stupid. I would highly suggest getting your theology straightened out and learning how to read the Bible correctly.

To me, that means that our identity (our true identity) is in Christ, not in labels such as those. At least Brad was honest in saying "in [his] opinion" as many of these types of topics are left to other's interpretations and cross-references. Simply because you have a different understanding of it does not make you more or less correct than anyone else. You see in it what helps you in your walk, what you get from it. Simply that. I believe that the Spirit of God speaks to us through the Word and what one may gather from it may not always be the same as what another gets from it. Hence, the amazing conversations that can stem from Bible studies.

Your posts always tend to have an air of false arrogance, which is not something categorized as a Christian trait. Just as you purpose that understanding a portion of Scripture differently than you is "stupid," one can also call out how unbiblically you conduct yourself here on this website. And still, within one of the chapters we are referring to here, there is quite a chunk dedicated to how we ought to treat each other and that is something, you dear sister, might be wise to meditate on, as well.
 
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Sunset2009

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To me, that means that our identity (our true identity) is in Christ, not in labels such as those. At least Brad was honest in saying "in [his] opinion" as many of these types of topics are left to other's interpretations and cross-references. Simply because you have a different understanding of it does not make you more or less correct than anyone else. You see in it what helps you in your walk, what you get from it. Simply that. I believe that the Spirit of God speaks to us through the Word and what one may gather from it may not always be the same as what another gets from it. Hence, the amazing conversations that can stem from Bible studies.

I get what you're saying here, but I still do not think that all Scripture is to be left up to personal interpretation. Because that result can be some pretty messed up and unfoundational doctrine. I'm specifically referring to the Scripture in Eph 5:23. "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." To misinterpret that in any other way than the what it actually says, is to say that Christ is indeed not head of his church (ie, heresy). So while the idea of relativism is a nice idea in theory, we simply cannot apply it to Scripture. We must study the word and compare other Scriptures to see if that specific interpretation lines up with other Scriptures. We can't have biased notions when it comes to interpreting Scripture.

white dove said:
Your posts always tend to have an air of false arrogance, which is not something categorized as a Christian trait. Just as you purpose that understanding a portion of Scripture differently than you is "stupid," one can also call out how unbiblically you conduct yourself here on this website. And still, within one of the chapters we are referring to here, there is quite a chunk dedicated to how we ought to treat each other and that is something, you dear sister, might be wise to meditate on, as well.

As for this, I will say that my last post addressed to Tamara, I believe, was probably a bit harsh. But I have no problems claiming clearly unbiblical interpretations of Scripture "stupid." Because when you really study the Word, compare Scriptures, and find out what they really mean, "sexist misinterpretations" is not what you're going to find as a result. I've noticed that most people who push these kind of Scriptures aside, have studied these particular Scriptures and what they mean, very, very little.
 
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white dove

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I get what you're saying here, but I still do not think that all Scripture is to be left up to personal interpretation. Because that result can be some pretty messed up and unfoundational doctrine.

That it can. And because of that, we must be really careful on how we approach Scripture, interpret it and relay those truths to others. I do agree with you there.

Sunset2009 said:
I'm specifically referring to the Scripture in Eph 5:23. "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." To misinterpret that in any other way than the what it actually says, is to say that Christ is indeed not head of his church (ie, heresy). So while the idea of relativism is a nice idea in theory, we simply cannot apply it to Scripture. We must study the word and compare other Scriptures to see if that specific interpretation lines up with other Scriptures. We can't have biased notions when it comes to interpreting Scripture.

I totally agree with the portion of your post that I've bolded (it is a part of studying Scripture that I particularly enjoy), but when it comes to relativism, that is where I disagree with you. There is a certain point with which I just don't see the point to it (because in that case, if relativism was the thing, it would be difficult if not impossible to make any statements and it would be difficult to make a case for God's/absolute truth), but as with all things, a certain amount of moderation is a must. Unfortunately, as we are still in our fleshly form, we will always be biased in what we say, do and believe. That, to me, is common knowledge as one cannot remove themselves from their own context. In addition, I think it's incredibly important to view the surrounding circumstances and culture of any given event (this includes the events pertained in the Bible).

Sunset2009 said:
As for this, I will say that my last post addressed to Tamara, I believe, was probably a bit harsh. But I have no problems claiming clearly unbiblical interpretations of Scripture "stupid." Because when you really study the Word, compare Scriptures, and find out what they really mean, "sexist misinterpretations" is not what you're going to find as a result. I've noticed that most people who push these kind of Scriptures aside, have studied these particular Scriptures and what they mean, very, very little.

I can understand having an "I just won't accept this untruth" stance and feeling the desire to defend God and God's truth... but in reality, God does not need us to get defensive (or offensive) like that. God is God. He can defend Himself just fine, you know? Also, as I already mentioned, who is to say that another's interpretation is any less just because it is different? I won't rehash that point again though. I've found that, especially with being on this board (not even so much in the real world which is a little shocking), it's really difficult for Christians to be able to discuss things in a mature fashion, especially if the views are different. It saddens me and disappoints, but it's nothing new. Again, we're still in the flesh here. And I think that sometimes, we let our flesh win and rather than speaking truth in love, we speak it in anger or pride. Both of which are foolish and counter-productive to growing within the faith - as well as counter-productive to encouraging that growth in fellow brothers and sisters.


But, I digress.
 
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Tamara224

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Are you serious? Genesis says that God created us male and female. How can you say that "in Christ Jesus" there is no male or female when He created us that way?

How can I say that? Well, let's see...
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3)

If that were the case, He would've just made us all the same. Yes, we were created in God's image, but that doesn't mean that we're not different. In that case, we might as well throw race, culture, and ethnicity out the door too.
You misunderstand both me and Scripture. It does not mean that we are all the same, it means that we are all equal.

Furthermore, I'm glad you brought up the race issue. If someone were to say that all races and ethnicities are equal but different - as we can obviously see by the physical differences between us - most people would say "yes, certainly." But the moment you take that further and proclaim that those differences mean one race should rule over another, you've become a racist.

The same is true for this topic of gender differences. Recognizing differences is just fine. It's only when you use those differences as justification for sexist behavior that it becomes a problem. Men and women are different. But that does not necessitate that men always be the leaders and women always be subjugated.

By not giving the whole counsel of G-d on the subject, you are adding confusion to an already difficult situation. Why do you prefer to hide the other aspects of His wisdom on the matter? Surely that can't help our OP.

Well, I think I'm actually the one adding the "whole" counsel of God on this subject. Where others tend to ignore the fact that God's word puts men and women on equal spiritual footing, I like to point out the rest of Scripture.

For example, Ephesians 5:21 "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." This is a directive to all believers, male and female. IOW, men are clearly instructed to submit to women (and women to men).

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bible does say that man is head of his wife, as Christ is head of the Church.

I know that it says that. What that means, however, is a subject of much debate. I am convinced that the word which we translate "head" in that passage (kephale) does NOT mean leader, boss or superior. It means "source, origin" (as in the head of the river). If Paul had wanted to teach that men were the boss of women, he wouldn't have use the word kephale, he would have used the word archon.

I know also what that passage doesn't say. It does not say "women are supposed to be led by men" (as was earlier claimed by the OP).

I believe that if you would stop for a moment and consider this, you would see your mistake. It's glaringly obvious.

A husband being the head of his wife does not translate to "all women need to be led by a man."

Nor does it translate to "the pastor is the head of all single women." That misinterpretation of Scripture is stretching it way past the plain meaning, reading into the text and pretty much abusing the Word of God.

There is no way you can misinterpret that, because Christ will always be head of his Church.
You have demonstrated a way to misinterpret that, as I have pointed out above.

In the first place, the statement in Scripture is a statement, not a command. If you've read all of the writings of Paul, you'll know how opposed to laws he was. The idea that Paul was setting down a law for gender roles is antithetical to the rest of his teachings. Either he contradicted himself in this area or we are not understanding him. I conclude the latter. I believe that something got lost in translation and a lot of cultural bias and baggage got added down through the years.

I'm sorry you have such a problem with all the MANY Scriptures that talk about a husband's authority over his family, and a wife's submission, but it is in the Word, and there is simply no getting around it. To say that it is a sexist misinterpretation is just plain heresy.
I do not have a problem with Scripture. I have a problem with those who twist and misinterpret it for their own agenda.

I also have a problem with lazy people who refuse to think for themselves. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's the truth. And truth be told, I don't think you're lazy so much as you are afraid of questioning what you've been taught.

Hear me on this, fear is not from God! If you are afraid to question and examine what your "pastor" is teaching you, then you need to ask yourself why. (Directed at the OP, here).

In Jesus Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile... Meaning the obvious... He doesn't love anybody more than anybody else. :doh:
It means more than that. It means that God doesn't favor any one class of people over another. The contrast in that passage was between those under the Law and those not under the Law. Paul was declaring that all of us, men AND women, are sons and heirs of God. We are on equal spiritual footing. Men are not spiritually more able than women. Men are not less likely to be deceived.

To use that Scripture as a way of justifying a Cafeteria Christianity mentality (I'll believe in this, this, ooo, not this, this, no, not this) is just stupid. I would highly suggest getting your theology straightened out and learning how to read the Bible correctly.
Insulting me won't change the truth. (And the fact of the matter is that I'm much more advanced in theological study and understanding than you are. I am not a babe needing milk. I am not boasting, but it is the simple truth). I know Whom I believe and in Whom I place my trust and I am not afraid of your accusations. I'm not afraid of hellfire for being wrong, if I am wrong. Nor will your attacks and accusations bolster your position. On the contrary, such childish statements as these reveal the weakness in your position. You have no idea why you believe what you do. You are merely repeating what you've been told. You are not convinced in your heart of hearts that it is truth and you are therefore afraid of contradiction. I know the feeling. I've been there before.

I urge you to stop taking your "pastor's" word for it. You are the one who will ultimately be responsible for what you believe and what doctrines you cling to. You and you alone have the obligation to search the Scriptures yourself to see if what I say is true.

Have the courage to question!

I know it may not seem like it, because I vehemently oppose what I am convinced is false doctrine, but I really do care that you are being led astray.

There is no mediator between you and God but Christ alone. If anyone comes to you and tries to convince you that you need him or anyone else to be in between you and God, that person is WRONG.



ETA: Sorry, I lost track of who I was responding to. Some of that was directed more at JC than Sunset. Apologize for any confusion.
 
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Paulie079

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How can I say that? Well, let's see...
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3)

You misunderstand both me and Scripture. It does not mean that we are all the same, it means that we are all equal.

Furthermore, I'm glad you brought up the race issue. If someone were to say that all races and ethnicities are equal but different - as we can obviously see by the physical differences between us - most people would say "yes, certainly." But the moment you take that further and proclaim that those differences mean one race should rule over another, you've become a racist.

The same is true for this topic of gender differences. Recognizing differences is just fine. It's only when you use those differences as justification for sexist behavior that it becomes a problem. Men and women are different. But that does not necessitate that men always be the leaders and women always be subjugated.

Okay, I'm beginning to see the track that you're on. I just can't imagine how anyone could deny that men and women are different physically, mentally, emotionally, etc. That verse is saying that spiritually we're all children of God--that's all that matters and that's what it comes down to.

And you're right, recognizing differences does not justify saying that women are somehow lesser--and that works with race too as you mentioned. None of that is Biblical. Differences in roles, physicality, etc. does not somehow nullify equality. God made man for woman and woman for man. It's one of the most beautiful things about His creation :)
 
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LoveJC9

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bible does say that man is head of his wife, as Christ is head of the Church. There is no way you can misinterpret that, because Christ will always be head of his Church. I'm sorry you have such a problem with all the MANY Scriptures that talk about a husband's authority over his family, and a wife's submission, but it is in the Word, and there is simply no getting around it. To say that it is a sexist misinterpretation is just plain heresy.

In Jesus Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile... Meaning the obvious... He doesn't love anybody more than anybody else. :doh: To use that Scripture as a way of justifying a Cafeteria Christianity mentality (I'll believe in this, this, ooo, not this, this, no, not this) is just stupid. I would highly suggest getting your theology straightened out and learning how to read the Bible correctly.

Apparently they pick scripture they like and just ignore the rest. I don't understand the anger over the WORD.
 
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Blank123

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Apparently they pick scripture they like and just ignore the rest. I don't understand the anger over the WORD.


Love, I have to be honest. That attitude is not beneficial to the conversation at hand. I know you were aware of what might happen when you posted this thread, because you posted about it in the OP. But I got the feeling that you wanted to open up others to your point of view. When you talk about someone who won't accept it in a demeaning manner when you know they can see what you're saying, thats the end of any meaningful or edifying discourse.

If you want to discuss why you believe their interpretation of a verse or passage is wrong, then I challenge you to post that passage and explain why, from the context, you believe its wrong.
 
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Rhye

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Apparently they pick scripture they like and just ignore the rest. I don't understand the anger over the WORD.

You know I always try to be kind to you and I always try to see different perspectives because I know that your heart is hurting, but you always, always ignore everyone else who tries to help you and be there for you.

Also, when you make a point, clear that point, don't act as though no one else knows what they are talking about or throwing things away just because it easier for them. Some of these people have spent much their lives with God and Christ and the Word. And you have no idea what you are talking about, when you make that comment.

Also, there is no anger over the Word. There is anger when people put others down and twist things just so they can look holier then others.
 
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