Deceived

[Paulie079]

How can I counter a point which is not a point? Let me paraphrase his original statement, at least the part I object to:

How can anyone think this in 2010? = You are a rube.

There is no point in what he said, at least none that isn't a well known logical fallacy. It is just a typical ad-hominem attack and ya, I'm feed up with that garbage. That's the noise that passes for actual argumentation these days. I'll run that down all day.

You're better off not getting angry at some person on the other side of a computer screen somewhere in the world. You're going to disagree with people. There will be unintelligent posts made on the forum. That's when you have to be above it all and stick with making intelligent posts yourself. Name-calling and attacking other people won't really do a lot for the intelligence, respectability, legitimacy, and relevancy of your posts. I'd strongly suggest re-reading the OP or find someone's post to legitimately respond to based on the topic at hand.

As for the OP, I truly believe that God created men and women for each other and to serve and submit to each other. While the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands, it also tells husbands to love their wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it. If that's not submission in its own right, I'm not really sure what is.

With that said, I think that God created men to serve women by loving, leading and protecting them and for women to serve men by loving, respecting, and encouraging them. God didn't place women under the leadership of men just because they would be a lost cause without men to lead them.

 

[K9_Trainer]

Yeah, but K9, this is all true to an extent. Eve sinned in the Garden because Adam was not being a man for her and leading her. He was off playing with the lions or something. The serpent knew that if he could get Eve alone, he could easily deceive her, and he did just that with his words. Paul "reinforces" this later in 1 Timothy, when he says, "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived," and that was the reason why, a couple verses before that he says he doesn't allow a woman to hold an authortative position over a man. Because women CAN be easily deceived, especially when they are not being "headed" by a man, whether that's a father, pastor, elder or husband.

It is universal truth that women think more emotionally and men think more logically. There are exceptions, but it's not the rule, and it IS a gender thing.

I think you are both creating things in that story in Genesis that aren't there though.

Nowhere in Genesis will you find any mention of the word authority. Eve was a helper, but it says nothing about adam being the "head", or eve having to submit to him before the curse. It says man and women were both created in God's image.

Also, there is nothing there to suggest that Eve was more easily deceived simply because she was a woman, or that the serpent targeted her because she was a woman. It does not say that she was deceived because of emotion...She was tricked by semantics, the serpent made sin seem like something good. That is something that everybody struggles with, man and womankind have to stay focused on the word of God, lest the world will make sin seem ok, or beneficial. That is nothing new, nor is it more of a struggle for one sex over the other.

You simply cannot draw the conclusions you have drawn based on what is written. Adam and eve were both stupid, they both allowed themselves to be deceived, and they both suffered the consequences, the consequences that we still have to deal with today.

I'm not arguing that women aren't more emotional. As a general rule, they are. But women aren't so emotional that they need to be under an authority of a man lest they do something stupid. You say thats not what you mean, but I don't see how it isn't since you keep repeating an inaccurate recital of what happened in the Garden of Eden as a reason for why women need the authority of a man. Women were not originally created to be ruled over by men, but to be helpers. Being ruled over by the husband is a part of the curse, the result of sin, its not what God had intended. Even according to Paul, "ruling over" the wife is unacceptable because the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the Church. Christ died for the church, and loved the church despite the people cursing his name and spitting on him and abusing him. He could have ruled over them, he could have struck them down with lightening. But thats not the example He set for how husbands are to treat their wives is it?

 

[stan1472]

Yeah, but K9, this is all true to an extent. Eve sinned in the Garden because Adam was not being a man for her and leading her. He was off playing with the lions or something. The serpent knew that if he could get Eve alone, he could easily deceive her, and he did just that with his words. Paul "reinforces" this later in 1 Timothy, when he says, "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived," and that was the reason why, a couple verses before that he says he doesn't allow a woman to hold an authortative position over a man. Because women CAN be easily deceived, especially when they are not being "headed" by a man, whether that's a father, pastor, elder or husband.

It is universal truth that women think more emotionally and men think more logically. There are exceptions, but it's not the rule, and it IS a gender thing.

 

[Rhye]

How, did you know I love to dance?
You have been reading posts, haven't you? =D

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Genesis 3:16 isn't a command.

 

[Brad2009]

How, did you know I love to dance?
You have been reading posts, haven't you? =D

All women love to dance. QED.

BWWAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHA! Just when you thought I couldn't cram any more gender-based platitudes in...

FWIW, I line-danced a few times back in the day... not a big dancer guy but a good partner makes it fun

 

[K9_Trainer]

I think the title of the thread is beginning to actually suit it....Because whomever opens it to this page has been deceived on what is being discussed

 

[Gwenyfur]

n00bz

anyhow...if you're comfortable submitting to this male, and it helps keep your life on the path you wish to travel well, then so be it...if you're happy go for it...

as for me...hell would have to literally freeze over before I ever submit to another male. been there...done that...and have the lying adulterer for an ex husband now.

Life's much better now...my path is clearer, and my burdens much lighter knowing the final decisions fall to me, rest with me, and I'm responsible for my own destiny...

 

[Rhye]

All women love to dance. QED.

BWWAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHA! Just when you thought I couldn't cram any more gender-based platitudes in...

FWIW, I line-danced a few times back in the day... not a big dancer guy but a good partner makes it fun

I LOVE line dancing.

LOL K9.

 

[Gwenyfur]

and thus proves another reason why I'll never submit to a male's authority ever again...

*so* mature...

 

[razeontherock]

I do not think that verse "and her desire will be for her husband" means that she will try and rule over him, the word "desire" means the same desire that a man has for a woman and vise versa. I think perhaps it means that "he will want to rule over you and you will let him."

Not wanting to argue, just to shed light and strengthen G-d's people:

Think this through ... the rendering posited here would mean that for a married woman to desire her husband is part of the curse. C'mon now ...
G-d really is NOT that old man with a long beard that just wants to make sure you don't have any fun! For a married couple to truly desire each other is one of the greater Blessings in this life.

Part 2 of the problem of the rendering you posit here:

it would also mean that for a wife to submit to her husband is part of the curse. Unpossible, as this contradicts the rest of Scripture on the issue. The fact is, this aspect of the curse is for a woman to rebel against the idea of submitting to her husband, heightening the need for him to impose rule. (Whether real or perceived) Look around and you see this all over! It's frustrating to both partners in marriage.

The insight available here is most helpful when you understand what the real function of such 'submission' is:

when a couple is at an impasse, usually any plan is better than no action. A true 'impasse' is only arrived at when you've discussed every angle and still not come to agreement. That pretty much excludes any real mistakes being made by going forward w/ anything presented. Nothing in this excuses abuse, manipulative or controlling behavior of any kind. It applies only in a situation of 'too many chefs spoil the broth.' And it's simply unwise to provoke your husband to anger, seeing as he's not only bigger, stronger and tougher, but you don't like him as well when he's angry.

So in such a situation, this knowledge is helpful in that you can better identify your own flesh rising up, and walk in victory that you are redeemed from the curse of the law of sin and death! The perfect law of liberty in the Spirit will act like an oil, lubricating the gears of our lives when otherwise everything is stuck and has ground to a halt.

It would be very worthwhile to examine the curse, and apply these ideas to how the problem could've been prevented. Even if you don't post it. Although I would love to hear women's input on this ...

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

 

[razeontherock]

Eve sinned in the Garden because Adam was not being a man for her and leading her. He was off playing with the lions or something. The serpent knew that if he could get Eve alone, he could easily deceive her, and he did just that with his words.

Another poster (a woman I'll have you note) picked this apart well, but because it's so important I'll bring out what she didn't:

Adam was choosing to obey his wife rather than G-d! It's rather popular today for a woman to say something like she "wants a man to be a real man," but THIS is the definition right here! A real man doesn't put his wife first, EVER. And rarely will G-d conflict w/ a woman's needs or even desires. (Well ok, if you let desires get frivolous ...)

There's absolutely nothing to suggest satan got Eve alone, but sunset is right, that Adam was being led by Eve. Can you see how submission fits in here? (Sorry Gwen luv ya, hear ya, and your situation now doesn't pertain anyway)

Adam heard the word of G-d, NOT EVE! She heard the word of G-d from Adam. There's the authority somebody else said wasn't there!

Eve wasn't deceived by satan's "words" so much. She was seduced away from believing G-d's word, confused about what it was, and in that state was enticed by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

This is a VITALLY IMPORTANT process for believers to understand!

Adam? Same thing with an added twist: he had already "left G-d to cleave to his wife." So ladies, being redeemed from the curse requires you actively promoting your husband NOT leaving G-d, but putting Him first, even ahead of you! When has a husband complained about being hen-pecked over this?

<Cricket-cricket> Hasn't happened.

This still applies to us singles. The Lord and His Bride is a great mystery. So the OP is right in a sense, that we are to respect our elders and leaders in the Lord. And they in turn should be effective at helping us outgrow the need, by bringing us closer to Christ Himself.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Another poster (a woman I'll have you note) picked this apart well, but because it's so important I'll bring out what she didn't:

Adam was choosing to obey his wife rather than G-d! It's rather popular today for a woman to say something like she "wants a man to be a real man," but THIS is the definition right here! A real man doesn't put his wife first, EVER. And rarely will G-d conflict w/ a woman's needs or even desires. (Well ok, if you let desires get frivolous ...)

There's absolutely nothing to suggest satan got Eve alone, but sunset is right, that Adam was being led by Eve. Can you see how submission fits in here? (Sorry Gwen luv ya, hear ya, and your situation now doesn't pertain anyway)

Adam heard the word of G-d, NOT EVE! She heard the word of G-d from Adam. There's the authority somebody else said wasn't there!

Eve wasn't deceived by satan's "words" so much. She was seduced away from believing G-d's word, confused about what it was, and in that state was enticed by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

This is a VITALLY IMPORTANT process for believers to understand!

Adam? Same thing with an added twist: he had already "left G-d to cleave to his wife." So ladies, being redeemed from the curse requires you actively promoting your husband NOT leaving G-d, but putting Him first, even ahead of you! When has a husband complained about being hen-pecked over this?

<Cricket-cricket> Hasn't happened.

This still applies to us singles. The Lord and His Bride is a great mystery. So the OP is right in a sense, that we are to respect our elders and leaders in the Lord. And they in turn should be effective at helping us outgrow the need, by bringing us closer to Christ Himself.

Funny...the KJV (most published and read version of the Scriptures) states that Eve:
Gen 3:6
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (emphasis mine)

Probably why he got stuck trying to rule over her...she has a mind of her own...and he failed to exert his role as a leader of the family, by not rebuking the serpent as it spoke to his wife.

Don't mind me on this though...just learned it at my pastor grandfather and jewish grandmother's knee

 

[K9_Trainer]

How does delivering an imperative message to Eve put Adam in a position of authority or give him authority over her?

 

[LoveJC9]

n00bz

anyhow...if you're comfortable submitting to this male, and it helps keep your life on the path you wish to travel well, then so be it...if you're happy go for it...

as for me...hell would have to literally freeze over before I ever submit to another male. been there...done that...and have the lying adulterer for an ex husband now.

Life's much better now...my path is clearer, and my burdens much lighter knowing the final decisions fall to me, rest with me, and I'm responsible for my own destiny...

This is really sad.... So to heck with the word of God?
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Tamara224]

Logical thinking, as I understand it, is not a sexually dimorphic trait. Logic is a learned skill. If you are prone to making illogical decisions, you don't get to blame that on being a silly, gullible female. Females that have bothered to learn the rules of logic may be annoyed by your assertion of generality.

Thank you! E gads, this thread irritates me. I'm as surprised as PRA that such things are being asserted by young ladies in this day and age.

I blame public education. What are they teaching in schools these days? Clearly, it's not logic or reasoning skills.

Genesis 3:16 isn't a command.

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this thread? The self-professed illogical females attempting to argue about the meaning of Scripture? It makes the head spin, the logical conundrum that creates.

 

[yam]

The man is the head ,but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head anyway she wants.

 

[Sunset2009]

Nowhere in Genesis will you find any mention of the word authority. Eve was a helper, but it says nothing about adam being the "head", or eve having to submit to him before the curse. It says man and women were both created in God's image.

No, the word "authority" is not used. However, Adam's headship was clearly established before the fall. We know this because Eve was created from Adam, she was created for him, to meet his needs, Adam spoke to God on behalf of Eve, and he was later rebuked by God for "harkening to the voice of his wife," etc etc. The New Testament reinforces this in 1 Corinthians 11: 8-9. "For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake." (And here specifically, Paul is talking about a husband being his wife's covering.)

Also, there is nothing there to suggest that Eve was more easily deceived simply because she was a woman, or that the serpent targeted her because she was a woman. It does not say that she was deceived because of emotion...She was tricked by semantics, the serpent made sin seem like something good. That is something that everybody struggles with, man and womankind have to stay focused on the word of God, lest the world will make sin seem ok, or beneficial. That is nothing new, nor is it more of a struggle for one sex over the other.

Hm, well the Bible teaches otherwise. I think I mentioned these verses before, but this is the reason Paul gave in 1 Timothy as to why he doesn't allow a woman to teach. Because, "man was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression." If it was simply just an "Eve thing," he probably wouldn't have given this instruction to all women (to not hold authority over a man).

I'm not arguing that women aren't more emotional. As a general rule, they are. But women aren't so emotional that they need to be under an authority of a man lest they do something stupid. You say thats not what you mean, but I don't see how it isn't since you keep repeating an inaccurate recital of what happened in the Garden of Eden as a reason for why women need the authority of a man. Women were not originally created to be ruled over by men, but to be helpers. Being ruled over by the husband is a part of the curse, the result of sin, its not what God had intended. Even according to Paul, "ruling over" the wife is unacceptable because the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the Church. Christ died for the church, and loved the church despite the people cursing his name and spitting on him and abusing him. He could have ruled over them, he could have struck them down with lightening. But thats not the example He set for how husbands are to treat their wives is it?

I didn't paint an inaccurate picture of what happened in the Garden. (Although Adam playing with the lions, yes, that could have been inaccurate. He could have been playing with the monkeys.) Everything that I said is later reiterated by Paul in the New Testament. It all connects together.

Also, the curse was not that man would rule over his wife. The curse was that woman would desire her husband's authoritative position, BUT EVEN SO, he would still hold that position nevertheless. Just wanted to make that clear. The "head" and "helper" roles were clearly established before the fall, and the curse was that woman would want the head role, but that man would still obtain it (if he can help it).

Now, I'm not sure why we're having this conversation since you know that wives are called to submit to their husbands, and what other reason would that be for, other than the fact that God has set up positions of authority that we are under?

 

[Blank123]

The man is the head ,but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head anyway she wants.

reps for the My Big Fat Greek Wedding reference

 

[LoveJC9]

Thank you! E gads, this thread irritates me. I'm as surprised as PRA that such things are being asserted by young ladies in this day and age.

The word of God is never changing and it says that the head of man is Christ, the head of woman is man. It was true 2000 years ago. It is true today.