Deceived

[leothelioness]

I get what you're saying here, but I still do not think that all Scripture is to be left up to personal interpretation. Because that result can be some pretty messed up and unfoundational doctrine. I'm specifically referring to the Scripture in Eph 5:23. "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." To misinterpret that in any other way than the what it actually says, is to say that Christ is indeed not head of his church (ie, heresy). So while the idea of relativism is a nice idea in theory, we simply cannot apply it to Scripture. We must study the word and compare other Scriptures to see if that specific interpretation lines up with other Scriptures. We can't have biased notions when it comes to interpreting Scripture.

The same thing has been going on for centuries regarding the scripture wherein Christ declares that the bread is His Body. Yet people continue to misinterpret it in a way other than what is clearly stated. So, unless you take that verse at face value (which being non-denom I'm sure you don't), then you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of.

 

[ProAntiRevolution]

Here's the thing about the Bible, and why I would never accept "Scripture alone:" you've got a series of books and letters, well actually translations of them. But a lot of it lacks a great deal of context, especially St. Paul's epistles. Of course, I find it funny when you have people that believe St. Paul's words on how a marriage should be arranged are iron clad and set in stone. But seem quite content to completely disregard his messages about going into debt. So in other words St Paul was spot on when it makes me lord and master, but if he keeps me from that new car or house I want then he was writing for a different time and culture.

 

[Blank123]

The same thing has been going on for centuries regarding the scripture wherein Christ declares that the bread is His Body. Yet people continue to misinterpret it in a way other than what is clearly stated. So, unless you take that verse at face value (which being non-denom I'm sure you don't), then you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of.

um. i'm non-denom. just sayin'...

 

[leothelioness]

That's not a slam against non-denoms. Just pointing out that she as a non-denom most likely doesn't take that verse at face value. To my knowledge most Protestant denoms don't.

 

[Paulie079]

Here's the thing about the Bible, and why I would never accept "Scripture alone:" you've got a series of books and letters, well actually translations of them. But a lot of it lacks a great deal of context, especially St. Paul's epistles. Of course, I find it funny when you have people that believe St. Paul's words on how a marriage should be arranged are iron clad and set in stone. But seem quite content to completely disregard his messages about going into debt. So in other words St Paul was spot on when it makes me lord and master, but if he keeps me from that new car or house I want then he was writing for a different time and culture.

What passage about debt are you talking about? You do make a good point, though. People will be on board for some Scripture but then will sort of ignore other parts.

I think everyone should study Scripture and examine the context--find out who it was written to, why it was written, what was going on at the time, etc. and you can better understand why they were writing what they were. But if you're going to accept Christ as your Savior based on the worldview that you've developed from Scripture, then you can't just throw other things from the Bible out because your pride is getting in the way and you don't like them. We are not our own. We were bought with a price. We so easily forget that. If we're only ever seeking to serve ourselves and live our life the way we think we should, we are not stepping into the purpose for which we were created. The Bible calls me to submission to God and other authorities and, when the time comes, to my wife in giving myself up for her. It may not always be fun for me, but it's not about me. It's about serving the Lord through serving other people.

Honestly, Jesus left the greatest "comfort zone" that has ever existed in heaven to come down to earth and live a perfect life in order to agonizingly bear the sin of all that would accept him while dying an excruciating death. The Bible says he made himself nothing. And then there are people, who God has no obligation to whatsoever, who have been experienced the grace God has given them in giving them freedom from their sin and a personal relationship with him, and yet they decide that they're going to bend or twist or simply reject what God has called them to as his children because they don't like it.

God calls us all to a life of humility. Submission is the very essence of humility. It's a tangible way to put it into practice. Submission has nothing to do with men being lesser than women or women being lesser than men. It's really a personal thing. It comes down to me putting the interests of others before my own and seeing people as better than my own self. It's not any one individual's job to tell somebody else that they are somehow lesser than another person. It's up to that individual to simply apply the idea of being a servant and submission to their own lives and to view others' interests as valuable and more important than their own. I really really wish that we would all get over ourselves and realize this and really see what God's whole heart in calling us to service and submission is. For real.

I think my rant is done...=/

 

[Blank123]

That's not a slam against non-denoms. Just pointing out that she as a non-denom most likely doesn't take that verse at face value. To my knowledge most Protestant denoms don't.

actually most (or many at least) do, but to demonstrate that would mean driving this thread off-topic and most likely starting a pretty heated debate about tran/consubstantiation.

 

[Melethiel]

Nobody believes in "consubstantiation."

 

[Tamara224]

actually most do, but to demonstrate that would mean driving this thread off-topic and most likely starting a pretty heated debate about tran/consubstantiation.

I think the point is that what one person considers to be "face value" another person will not find so obvious.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

This is going to go over like a soup sandwich.... But here goes....

I understand why women need to be submitted to a man. Not saying I like it completely but I do understand. For the most part we are emotional creatures and we don't think logically or as logically as men. We are very easily deceived just like Eve was deceived in the garden.

I want to thank God that I have a pastor who cares enough about me and my daughter to be an authority in my life, someone who I should be submitted to until the time I get married. I have done some very stupid things and I see that had I really listened to him and applied what he has said in the last 2 years of my life things would have been so much different and I would not have suffered the pain that I have suffered.

So if you don't have someone in your life to help you think logically, it is a great thing.

Just sayin....

Really? Maybe you're more of an emotional feeler/thinker yourself, but don't project that upon everyone or create a command because of it. Heck, even the pastor who pre-maritally counselled my wife and I admitted that in their marriage, he was the more emotional one and she was the more logical one.

The Bible NEVER says anything about men being more logical than women. And if you feel you should submit to your pastor, good on you, but it's not because he is a MAN, it's because he is a man of wisdom and counsel in God. Don't just submit to him because he's male, because that general tack will serve you very badly if you submit to the wrong man.

 

[Rhye]

What passage about debt are you talking about? You do make a good point, though. People will be on board for some Scripture but then will sort of ignore other parts.

I think everyone should study Scripture and examine the context--find out who it was written to, why it was written, what was going on at the time, etc. and you can better understand why they were writing what they were. But if you're going to accept Christ as your Savior based on the worldview that you've developed from Scripture, then you can't just throw other things from the Bible out because your pride is getting in the way and you don't like them. We are not our own. We were bought with a price. We so easily forget that. If we're only ever seeking to serve ourselves and live our life the way we think we should, we are not stepping into the purpose for which we were created. The Bible calls me to submission to God and other authorities and, when the time comes, to my wife in giving myself up for her. It may not always be fun for me, but it's not about me. It's about serving the Lord through serving other people.

Honestly, Jesus left the greatest "comfort zone" that has ever existed in heaven to come down to earth and live a perfect life in order to agonizingly bear the sin of all that would accept him while dying an excruciating death. The Bible says he made himself nothing. And then there are people, who God has no obligation to whatsoever, who have been experienced the grace God has given them in giving them freedom from their sin and a personal relationship with him, and yet they decide that they're going to bend or twist or simply reject what God has called them to as his children because they don't like it.

God calls us all to a life of humility. Submission is the very essence of humility. It's a tangible way to put it into practice. Submission has nothing to do with men being lesser than women or women being lesser than men. It's really a personal thing. It comes down to me putting the interests of others before my own and seeing people as better than my own self. It's not any one individual's job to tell somebody else that they are somehow lesser than another person. It's up to that individual to simply apply the idea of being a servant and submission to their own lives and to view others' interests as valuable and more important than their own. I really really wish that we would all get over ourselves and realize this and really see what God's whole heart in calling us to service and submission is. For real.

I think my rant is done...=/

 

[razeontherock]

Well, I think I'm actually the one adding the "whole" counsel of God on this subject.

Previously I challenged you on that, and you rose to the challenge. Thank you! You brought out many good points. Before that post you seemed a bit unjustified in militant feminism, but with that post I see you have thought this through, and also care about our OP. I hope she reads through your post carefully ...

 

[LJSGM]

Not wanting to argue, just to shed light and strengthen G-d's people:

Think this through ... the rendering posited here would mean that for a married woman to desire her husband is part of the curse. C'mon now ...
G-d really is NOT that old man with a long beard that just wants to make sure you don't have any fun! For a married couple to truly desire each other is one of the greater Blessings in this life.

Part 2 of the problem of the rendering you posit here:

it would also mean that for a wife to submit to her husband is part of the curse. Unpossible, as this contradicts the rest of Scripture on the issue. The fact is, this aspect of the curse is for a woman to rebel against the idea of submitting to her husband, heightening the need for him to impose rule. (Whether real or perceived) Look around and you see this all over! It's frustrating to both partners in marriage.

The insight available here is most helpful when you understand what the real function of such 'submission' is:

when a couple is at an impasse, usually any plan is better than no action. A true 'impasse' is only arrived at when you've discussed every angle and still not come to agreement. That pretty much excludes any real mistakes being made by going forward w/ anything presented. Nothing in this excuses abuse, manipulative or controlling behavior of any kind. It applies only in a situation of 'too many chefs spoil the broth.' And it's simply unwise to provoke your husband to anger, seeing as he's not only bigger, stronger and tougher, but you don't like him as well when he's angry.

So in such a situation, this knowledge is helpful in that you can better identify your own flesh rising up, and walk in victory that you are redeemed from the curse of the law of sin and death! The perfect law of liberty in the Spirit will act like an oil, lubricating the gears of our lives when otherwise everything is stuck and has ground to a halt.

It would be very worthwhile to examine the curse, and apply these ideas to how the problem could've been prevented. Even if you don't post it. Although I would love to hear women's input on this ...

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

There are several problems with your interpretation.

1. You are adding to scriptures what is not there. It does not say "her desire will be to have authority." From the strong's...
1) desire, longing, craving
a) of man for woman
b) of woman for man

2. You are assuming that submission has to do with the curse where it does not say this, which is also an addition and assumption.

3. You assume that submission means to obey a ruling. When scriptures says for us to submit to one another, that means men to other men, it does not mean that we must give them authority over us. Further analysis of this word shows a possible meaning of "to not battle against."

 

[LoveJC9]

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

This scripture says to me that I should be submitted to someone who is older than me in the Lord.

Again this scripture I take as my pastor...

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

[LoveJC9]

1Co 16:16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

 

[razeontherock]

Further analysis of this word shows a possible meaning of "to not battle against."

Yes, this speaks to exactly what I raised, that you said is problematic. Your argument strengthens mine, which is not an indicator that we are in disagreement.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Can you explain how this is responsive to my post #69, on p 7? I don't see how it does anything but strengthens what I said, but that doesn't seem to be your intended point. What'd I miss?

My only point was that most of the Church blames Eve for original sin...it's been accepted so long that it's passed beyond "dogma" into "Tradition". Meanwhile one of the oldest english interpretations of Scripture states Adam was "With her" ... he wasn't off playing with the zebras, or doting on the kitty cats...he was right there...listening to every word spoken between the serpent and the woman...and said nothing....did nothing...to prevent his wife from taking of the fruit and eating...nor after listening, and having God's command first hand, did he refuse to eat of the fruit...

Kinda like men now days...

Honey, the oil in the cars needs changed...
week later...
Honey...the oil in the car is past it's due date...
week later...
sweetheart, did you get the oil changed?
Male response:
Stop nagging! I'll get to it!

most males are typically unaware of the passage of time, and suffer from selective hearing...with a tendency toward procrastination and inactivity...

not much has changed in the intervening millenia when it comes to how most males attempt to lead from their "armchairs"

My truth is better than your truth, rawr.

You can think that all you want to...
But my truth lets me dance under the moonlight to drums

 

[Paulie079]

My only point was that most of the Church blames Eve for original sin...it's been accepted so long that it's passed beyond "dogma" into "Tradition". Meanwhile one of the oldest english interpretations of Scripture states Adam was "With her" ... he wasn't off playing with the zebras, or doting on the kitty cats...he was right there...listening to every word spoken between the serpent and the woman...and said nothing....did nothing...to prevent his wife from taking of the fruit and eating...nor after listening, and having God's command first hand, did he refuse to eat of the fruit...

Kinda like men now days...

Honey, the oil in the cars needs changed...
week later...
Honey...the oil in the car is past it's due date...
week later...
sweetheart, did you get the oil changed?
Male response:
Stop nagging! I'll get to it!

most males are typically unaware of the passage of time, and suffer from selective hearing...with a tendency toward procrastination and inactivity...

not much has changed in the intervening millenia when it comes to how most males attempt to lead from their "armchairs"

Passivity at its finest! For anyone who's seen me talk about it before, this post talks about it quite well.

 

[K9_Trainer]

My only point was that most of the Church blames Eve for original sin...it's been accepted so long that it's passed beyond "dogma" into "Tradition". Meanwhile one of the oldest english interpretations of Scripture states Adam was "With her" ... he wasn't off playing with the zebras, or doting on the kitty cats...he was right there...listening to every word spoken between the serpent and the woman...and said nothing....did nothing...to prevent his wife from taking of the fruit and eating...nor after listening, and having God's command first hand, did he refuse to eat of the fruit...

Kinda like men now days...

Honey, the oil in the cars needs changed...
week later...
Honey...the oil in the car is past it's due date...
week later...
sweetheart, did you get the oil changed?
Male response:
Stop nagging! I'll get to it!

most males are typically unaware of the passage of time, and suffer from selective hearing...with a tendency toward procrastination and inactivity...

not much has changed in the intervening millenia when it comes to how most males attempt to lead from their "armchairs"




You can think that all you want to...
But my truth lets me dance under the moonlight to drums

See the easy solution to that is to do it yourself

Usually if the guy sees you are attempting to do something you asked him to do, he'll get off his butt and do it for you

 

[Gwenyfur]

but...

If I still gotta do everything myself, be responsible for everything...what's the point in even having a man around?

Just another thing to take care of

I do love being single

 

[Sunset2009]

(And the fact of the matter is that I'm much more advanced in theological study and understanding than you are. I am not a babe needing milk. I am not boasting, but it is the simple truth).

And how and why exactly do you think that? (If, indeed you were referring to me and not the OP, here.) To claim your theological greatness over me based on a couple of posts you've seen of mine over the internet just shows that you're trying to prove your "superiority" over me (why, I have no idea). The fact of the matter however, is that indeed you have no idea. If we had known each other well (and in real life) for the past 10 years, then you would have a right to say something like that. But otherwise, to accuse me of "feeding on milk," while you are high and superior and already eating of spiritual meat is the same attitude the Pharisees had.

I'm not going to reply to any of the rest of your post because I'm unsure of what was addressed to me and what was addressed to the OP. But I would like to point out nonetheless, that this was a subject that I have studied myself. It wasn't taught to me. I was not raised believing a woman needed to submit to her husband. But after my own studying, reading of many books, listening to many Bible scholars on this subject and believing it is indeed God's way and plan for wives, this is the conclusion I have come to. Do I need to learn more? Of course. I would be a fool to say I know it all. But this was not something that was "fed" to me. And it was certainly not something I've been "brainwashed" into believing, nor has it ever been something I felt the need to (as you say) twist Scripture into fitting around my own agenda. (Why this issue would be on someone's agenda, I have no idea.)

I just think there is a lot of wisdom in the way God set up Himself, Christ, Church, man, wife, family (government, elders, etc). It's all a system, otherwise there'd be chaos (and there is in most marriages, today). This "system" was established in the very beginning of time and reinforced thousands of years later after the New Covenant. And while you think my interpretation is screwed up and unfounded, I think that your interpretation is screwed up and unfounded, and I suppose that's just the way it is. Based on what I've studied, what I've heard from many intelligent Bible scholars, etc. I find your conclusion of these Scripture as being "sexist misinterpretations" unfounded and thus, stupid. I was not meaning to insult you, but merely perhaps question your lack of open-mindedness on this issue.

I was open-minded delving into this subject many years ago, myself. I didn't believe one way or the other, and being 15, I didn't even understand what a wife being in subject to her husband really meant, or why it was at all important. But there is no reason to think that your studying is more superior than mine, or more founded then mine, when in fact, I (and many Bible scholars) disagree with you. And I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree and simply leave it at that. I do apologize if I have offended you. I have a superiority-complex myself (surprised? ) and get hot when feeling belittled, not because I'm insecure in myself or in my beliefs, because I can plainly tell you I am not (and I am confident in my own self-examination, because I am always examining why I act certain ways). But because I have a strong belief that nobody is better than anybody else. The Pope isn't better at interpreting Scripture than I am, or than you are. The President is not better or more important than me, or you. So when I get a feeling that someone is trying to act superior to me, I get defensive. (This is why a husband who is trying to "rule over" me in an unbiblical manner just would never work, so no need to worry about that. ) There's no justifying my actions, so I do apologize. It's something I still need to work on.