Debate/Proof?

[golgotha61]

Just because there is an unknown does not point to a god.

Where does logic originate?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Really? I thought the bible was supposed to be about god... thank you for enlightening me. You are correct that the bible clearly paints a negative picture of women. However, I've taken great pains to take the emotional part out of why I reject the bible - and I've specifically focused on the logical reasons. The logical reasons have led me to my current lack of belief in a god.

The reason you don't believe in God is because God hasn't called you to belief.

 

[Johnnz]

If it cannot be done, then I am at a loss. I am searching for emperical evidence, and have found none.

Faith, as you describe, is contrary to reason because it belief without evidence or justification.

Neither history nor personal experience are empirical in a scientific sense. Empiricism is but one criterion.

No. faith is not contrary to reason. Faith must have reasonable grounds else it is mere credulity. Read up on those links and that may help you see where I am coming from.

John
NZ

 

[GodlessJezabel]

The reason you don't believe in God is because God hasn't called you to belief.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I was once a believer...

In any case, why wouldn't a god want all of his creations to believe in him?

 

[Nanopants]

In some countries, stealing is an offense punishable by death. It is irrelevant what I think is fair, since the punishments are doled out by whatever society you are living in.

Ok, but just because every country may decide for itself what is fair, that doesn't mean a universal death sentence is fair. If someone who murders in cold blood receives the same penalty as someone who steals, they may be treated equally, but not in proportion to the severity of the crime. Let's say they both receive only a slap on the wrist. In that case a person's life was intentionally snuffed out, and the perpetrator basically got away with it; the victim and the murderer were treated unequally, which implies partiality, so that standard of fairness is self-contradictory.

I propose that if a judge were to be perfectly fair in all contexts, if it were possible, that he or she would have to treat everyone equally and in proportion to the severity of the crime, so that the perpetrators receive the same treatment they inflicted on their victims. Would you disagree with me or do you think that would be fair, and could that ideal be improved?

 

[drich0150]

Oh, where do I begin...
Why are there so many clear contradictions in the bible?

like?

Why would a loving god allow such suffering in the world?

We can go acouple of different ways on this one. I perfer to point out that the bible does not say God is not "All Loving." Nor is the "love/Agape" God offers open to everyone. For those who accept the Agape offered to them this love will be boundless. For those who do not there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I also like to point out that suffering is the result of living outside the know glory/protection of God. Meaning we live in a realm where our choices are independant of the will of God. Why? So we can make choices in this life and they (accompanied by their consenquences) have true meaning, and will echo throught eternity for us.

Which god is the right god?

Which god is the right god for what?

How do I reconcile (if I'm a believer) that many of my friends/loved ones are going to burn in a fiery pit because they don't believe?

You don't. For not all want to be with God. We have been given a choice to make in this life who to say that eternal life is for everyone?

Just off the top of my head - but there are so very many more.

Please... This is all apart of the "Seeking" God expects from us (as outlined in Luke 11)

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I lost my faith a number of years ago, and logic and reason have only confirmed it. I am fairly knowledgable about the bible and am looking for anyone who may be able to debate me/show me evidence in a god's favor.

If a 30 year old man beats and rapes a 16 year old girl, is that wrong?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I believe that life is life - and the fact that I am here, living life, is valuable. I don't need anything to know that - this life is all I have, and living it to the fullest is giving my life the utmost meaning.

Death is death, which is a part of life. It is not a negation of knowledge by any means.

I'm not sure what you mean about error. Truth can be found by trial and error...

Peace can come from within.

Error is death to the life instinct and impulse. Trial and error is evolution the "forbidden tree" where we taste death through sin as well as life through the way to its fullest truth. Death may be annihilation the big sleep i suppose or any denial of life whilst we live - "its raining i cant believe it!!!" or I am but in flight.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Maybe you missed the part where I said I was once a believer...

This sounds like you:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

In any case, why wouldn't a god want all of his creations to believe in him?

He does, but in his time, not theirs. He is selecting a small group now, the rest later. So eat, drink, and be merry (enjoy your life); your time will come.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Where does logic originate?

Logic is a creation of humans, it the study of reasoning.

 

[golgotha61]

I'm not at all opposed to logic. Hopefully my replies show some evidence of that . It's the limitations of human rationality I have raised in this thread. Trying to 'prove god' by logic and an appeal to the scientific method as the overriding criteria cannot be done. That does not then imply that faith is opposed or contrary to reason, just that other criteria apply, such as historical, evidential and experiential added to revelation.

John
NZ

I have no disagreement with your position. The atheist regards the existence of the material as all there is. The logic argument is to demonstrate that the non-material exists and that at some point we must account for it. Logic is a non-material entity by which God created and sustains his creation. Logic is not a method as TheQuietRiot would suggest, rather it is an entity comprised of laws. These laws were created by God and are a reflection of how He thinks. Methods are developed and refined but the laws of logic are abstract, universal, and invariant entities. If logic were a method created by humans, then as humans differ so would logic, but as we know, logic is universal and invariant.

The thesis is: an atheist will deny the existence of God (the supernatural, non-material) while all the while using the laws of logic in the denial. This is inconsistent. If logic exists, and atheists will not deny this, then God also exists because He created logic and it is from Him that logic originates. If GodlessJezabel is in disagreement with where logic originates, then I would like her to reveal its source.

I am not interested in debating here with fellow believers, the logic argument is for the OP to engage in. She made a statement in post #15 that the logic argument directly addresses and it is here that I hope God can turn GodlessJezabel from the atheist's natural world view to the Christians supernatural world view.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

I have no disagreement with your position. The atheist regards the existence of the material as all there is. The logic argument is to demonstrate that the non-material exists and that at some point we must account for it. Logic is a non-material entity by which God created and sustains his creation. Logic is not a method as TheQuietRiot would suggest, rather it is an entity comprised of laws. These laws were created by God and are a reflection of how He thinks. Methods are developed and refined but the laws of logic are abstract, universal, and invariant entities. If logic were a method created by humans, then as humans differ so would logic, but as we know, logic is universal and invariant.

The thesis is: an atheist will deny the existence of God (the supernatural, non-material) while all the while using the laws of logic in the denial. This is inconsistent. If logic exists, and atheists will not deny this, then God also exists because He created logic and it is from Him that logic originates. If GodlessJezabel is in disagreement with where logic originates, then I would like her to reveal its source.

I am not interested in debating here with fellow believers, the logic argument is for the OP to engage in. She made a statement in post #15 that the logic argument directly addresses and it is here that I hope God can turn GodlessJezabel from the atheist's natural world view to the Christians supernatural world view.

Logic is not an entity, it is the study of reasoning.

What evidence do you have that it was created by God? You won't convince an atheist by saying "Logic exists, therefore God being the creator of logic must also exist" You have not demonstrated why the second premise follows the first.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

Logic is of this world, and it is understood in the human brain. I observe and make logical conclusions based on what is known about the natural world.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

Ok, but just because every country may decide for itself what is fair, that doesn't mean a universal death sentence is fair. If someone who murders in cold blood receives the same penalty as someone who steals, they may be treated equally, but not in proportion to the severity of the crime. Let's say they both receive only a slap on the wrist. In that case a person's life was intentionally snuffed out, and the perpetrator basically got away with it; the victim and the murderer were treated unequally, which implies partiality, so that standard of fairness is self-contradictory.

I propose that if a judge were to be perfectly fair in all contexts, if it were possible, that he or she would have to treat everyone equally and in proportion to the severity of the crime, so that the perpetrators receive the same treatment they inflicted on their victims. Would you disagree with me or do you think that would be fair, and could that ideal be improved?

I didn't say a universal death sentence was fair - but in parts of the world, others do. And no, if a judge was to be fair in all contexts, then he/she would have to evaluate all of the circumstances surrounding the crime, the victim (if there is a victim of said crime), and the person accused of the crime. Killing a person is not always murder...

 

[GodlessJezabel]

If a 30 year old man beats and rapes a 16 year old girl, is that wrong?

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything - but I would say that any rape and/or beating is wrong.

 

[NaCl]

Logic is of this world, and it is understood in the human brain. I observe and make logical conclusions based on what is known about the natural world.

How does the concept of logic exist? Why does it necessarily have to exist?

 

[GodlessJezabel]

This sounds like you:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.



He does, but in his time, not theirs. He is selecting a small group now, the rest later. So eat, drink, and be merry (enjoy your life); your time will come.

How convenient...

I was very adamant in my faith and tried to show several of my family members what I thought was the right path. I find no love, though, in a puppetmaker that would play with the emotions of his creations.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

How does the concept of logic exist? Why does it necessarily have to exist?

Logic is valid reasoning - it is a tool we use to draw conclusions based on reasonable evidence. Some people chose not to draw logical conclusions because they ignore the resonable evidence.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

like?

We can go acouple of different ways on this one. I perfer to point out that the bible does not say God is not "All Loving." Nor is the "love/Agape" God offers open to everyone. For those who accept the Agape offered to them this love will be boundless. For those who do not there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I also like to point out that suffering is the result of living outside the know glory/protection of God. Meaning we live in a realm where our choices are independant of the will of God. Why? So we can make choices in this life and they (accompanied by their consenquences) have true meaning, and will echo throught eternity for us.

Which god is the right god for what?

You don't. For not all want to be with God. We have been given a choice to make in this life who to say that eternal life is for everyone?

Please... This is all apart of the "Seeking" God expects from us (as outlined in Luke 11)

Sorry, I don't have this quoting thing down -

Contradictions -
Slavery is ok and enouraged - yet love one's neighbor.
Genocide is condoned in many cases - see above.
Rape is not seen as a horrible crime, but one in which a rapist may simply pay the girl's father and then marry her - but marriage is the great union given to us by god.

Which god do we believe in? How many religions are out there, which how many gods to worship? I'm sure a Muslim believes with just as much faith in his god as you do yours. Hindus, Jews, Mormons... all believe in a god (or perhaps many).

If I really thought that there was a LOVING creator out there, who wasn't going to send me to a fiery pit for commiting the least of the sins, then why would I chose not to believe in that god? I wouldn't... but biblical evidence points to a chauvinistic, mysogonist god that would rather destroy his entire creation than give them the least bit of help (with his all knowing, and all powerful will that he is supposed to have).

The more seeking I do, the farther away I am from believing in any of it.

 

[golgotha61]

Logic is of this world, and it is understood in the human brain. I observe and make logical conclusions based on what is known about the natural world.

Logic is universal, abstract, and invariant. If logic were only of this world, then we could not have landed on Mars. Since the laws of science which are governed by the laws of logic obviously applied on mars as on earth, landing on Mars was possible. Logic applies on Mars were mankind and his brain have never been.

I understand you use logic and I know that the brain observes it but these statements don't divulge the origination of logic. Where does logic originate?

I have a question for you. It appears that you may not deny that the supernatural exists: is this true? Are you angry with God as opposed to unbelieving in His existence? Are you more unsure of who He is than not believing that He exists?