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Debate/Proof?

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Logic is universal, abstract, and invariant. If logic were only of this world, then we could not have landed on Mars. Since the laws of science which are governed by the laws of logic obviously applied on mars as on earth, landing on Mars was possible. Logic applies on Mars were mankind and his brain have never been.

I understand you use logic and I know that the brain observes it but these statements don't divulge the origination of logic. Where does logic originate?

I have a question for you. It appears that you may not deny that the supernatural exists: is this true? Are you angry with God as opposed to unbelieving in His existence? Are you more unsure of who He is than not believing that He exists?

I don't have a clear answer for you on the actual origin of logic - other than from within. Humans can logically reason. However, not knowing the origin of it does not point me in the direction of any god.

Logic is only of this world in the sense that it is of the natural world - the natural universe - not supernatural. We landed on Mars because we understand the physics of our solar system. We didn't land on Mars because of any supernatural power.

I do deny the existence of anything supernatural. I believe in things I can see and that are observable - that are able to be proven by scientific means. I am not angry at any god - how can I be when I don't believe in one? I am sure he is nothing more than a figment of many imaginations.

That said - I am open to proof in a god's existence, should there be any. But, I have not found any proof.
 
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Johnnz

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That said - I am open to proof in a god's existence, should there be any. But, I have not found any proof.

Trustworthy evidence, not proof, is the criterion. The super-natural is beyond scientific proof; that realm is not science's subject matter. Any projection beyond scientific 'facts' from the material world can only be some 'faith' position.

For Christian belief the starting point is Jesus - the reliability and veracity of his claims about Himself in light of his resurrection.

John
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FutureAndAHope

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In regard to the first post. I would appeal for you to consider experiences that Christians have that prove God. I will share with you one of my favorite experiences and give you a link to my website that contains others.

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

My website is Know God Personally
 
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OldWiseGuy

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How convenient...

I was very adamant in my faith and tried to show several of my family members what I thought was the right path. I find no love, though, in a puppetmaker that would play with the emotions of his creations.


You should just let it go. You won't find much comfort trying to get sympathy from believers. Yours is a common response, that of justification. I went through the same process after my divorce. It was "all her fault". Of course to her it was all my fault.
 
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golgotha61

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I don't have a clear answer for you on the actual origin of logic - other than from within. Humans can logically reason. However, not knowing the origin of it does not point me in the direction of any god.

Its good that you admit to not knowing where logic originates. I maintain that God is the originator of logic and I realize that the search for the answer to logic's origination does not necessarily lead to God. However, what the search does do is force one to realize that the non-material exists and governs. The next logical question is this: If a realm of the non-material (supernatural) exists, what is its definition?

Logic is only of this world in the sense that it is of the natural world - the natural universe - not supernatural. We landed on Mars because we understand the physics of our solar system. We didn't land on Mars because of any supernatural power.

I didn't say that a supernatural power directly enabled us to land on Mars. The point is, logic governs all natural laws. Natural laws must obey the laws of logic, the law of non-contradiction being one of those laws. The laws of physics work because they are non-contradictory and therefor are logical.

I do deny the existence of anything supernatural. I believe in things I can see and that are observable - that are able to be proven by scientific means. I am not angry at any god - how can I be when I don't believe in one? I am sure he is nothing more than a figment of many imaginations.

That said - I am open to proof in a god's existence, should there be any. But, I have not found any proof.

Don't turn away from the search for the origin of logic, but in the mean time there are a few things to consider.

One is the desire of yours to prove God exists. Johnnz is correct in his redirection to evidences. The chief evidence of God's existence is of course the historical life and works of Christ. Also, the evidences that meant the most to Ancient Israel were the fulfilled prophecies and these are also valuable to us.

Since 567/568 B.C. until 1948 A.D. Israel was not a sovereign nation and was scattered throughout the world. Hated reviled attempted to be obliterated from existence but still remains identifiable as a separate people by their religion and nationality. No other people group in the history of mankind can claim such a distinction. This existence of Israel today is exhibit A in the lineup of convincing evidences that the Bible’s prophecies concerning the future ahead of us will be fulfilled. This, perhaps, is the most important blessing we can receive from the astounding history of the Jews. It reveals the reality of God-His overwhelming power, the authenticity of His promises, the certainty of His existence, the urgency of His call to us, and His claim on our very being.

I ask you to consider the book of Luke. Viewing Luke through a lens of context, he was a man of science; he was a physician. The book of Luke was written by Luke as an investigator with the intent of delivering a thoughtful and systematic report of the man called Jesus who is the Christ. Luke 1:1-4 (ASV)
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us,
2 even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word,
3 it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;
4 that thou mightest know the certainty concerning the things wherein thou wast instructed.



If you replace the name Theophilus with your name, the letter is written so you may know the certainty concerning the things wherein you were instructed.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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I lost my faith a number of years ago, and logic and reason have only confirmed it. I am fairly knowledgable about the bible and am looking for anyone who may be able to debate me/show me evidence in a god's favor.

I dont know what you mean when you say 'evidence in a gods favor' ?

If you mean evidence of the biblical God being real, then, there is plenty of sufficient evidences using the Bible as well as outside of the Bible , thru modern science, that confirms the personal theistic Creator of the Bible is the truth . What it really depends on, is HOW diligent the Investigator wants to be in getting the answers ; the best source ive found is www.impactapologetics.com for materials...and the best book ive found why the CHristian Faith is true is listed in the last half of the popular book called : 'I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' also thru the same site or thru www.amazon.com for a cheap used copy if you wish.

Im pleased to tell you as an Evidential Christian Apologist, that, God is all for using our Minds capitilizing on logic and sound reason for the little faith thats required to believe he exists and to trust he loved us to the point of actually sending his Son Jesus Christ to die in our place for our many accumulated sins so we could spend eternity safe in his presence .

(read my personal testimony from 10 years as an atheist to committed Christian , over in the Testimonies Room of C.F. ---------- here , this will get you there : http://www.christianforums.com/t7686864/ )
 
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In regard to the first post. I would appeal for you to consider experiences that Christians have that prove God. I will share with you one of my favorite experiences and give you a link to my website that contains others.

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

My website is Know God Personally

For as many christian experiences there are, there are other religious experiences that people have had throught the ages. I can't take other people's experiences as evidence for a god's existence.
 
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You should just let it go. You won't find much comfort trying to get sympathy from believers. Yours is a common response, that of justification. I went through the same process after my divorce. It was "all her fault". Of course to her it was all my fault.

I'm not the one perpetuating it. I stated a fact - the fact that I once believed and now I don't. You started referencing scripture in response.

I'm in no way trying to garner sympathy from anyone.

Your comparison is flawed. You are comparing a conflict with a real person to a conflict with an imaginary one.
 
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Trustworthy evidence, not proof, is the criterion. The super-natural is beyond scientific proof; that realm is not science's subject matter. Any projection beyond scientific 'facts' from the material world can only be some 'faith' position.

For Christian belief the starting point is Jesus - the reliability and veracity of his claims about Himself in light of his resurrection.

John
NZ

But doesn't proof come from trustworthy evidence? If the only answer is "faith", then that's a leap I can not make.

Jesus claimed he is god... that is no different than any other man claiming he is god. A man can claim anything - it doesn't make it true. We begin to believe when there is real and tangible evidence for the claims.
 
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Johnnz

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But doesn't proof come from trustworthy evidence? If the only answer is "faith", then that's a leap I can not make.

Jesus claimed he is god... that is no different than any other man claiming he is god. A man can claim anything - it doesn't make it true. We begin to believe when there is real and tangible evidence for the claims.

Trustworthy evidence. Faith goes on from there. The claims Jesus made must be assessed within the context of the historical records we have in the NT as the essential starting point. In particular, did the resurrection happen or not as a matter of historical record? That is a fundamental issue, which Paul openly acknowledged in one of his letters.

John
NZ
 
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Trustworthy evidence. Faith goes on from there. The claims Jesus made must be assessed within the context of the historical records we have in the NT as the essential starting point. In particular, did the resurrection happen or not as a matter of historical record? That is a fundamental issue, which Paul openly acknowledged in one of his letters.

John
NZ

But if this great and miraculous thing happened... if a man truely rose from the dead... shouldn't we have more texts or records about it? The ONLY evidence is found in the bible... other evidence for even the existence of Jesus is scarce.
 
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golgotha61

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But if this great and miraculous thing happened... if a man truely rose from the dead... shouldn't we have more texts or records about it? The ONLY evidence is found in the bible... other evidence for even the existence of Jesus is scarce.

I know this is not my discussion but I am curious: how many texts would satisfy your doubt? If there were more texts that referenced Christ's resurrection, I suspect they would have been canonized into the Bible as well and then you would ask for more?

I don't believe it is the scarcity of evidence that holds you back. What is it that keeps you at the door?
 
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I know this is not my discussion but I am curious: how many texts would satisfy your doubt? If there were more texts that referenced Christ's resurrection, I suspect they would have been canonized into the Bible as well and then you would ask for more?

I don't believe it is the scarcity of evidence that holds you back. What is it that keeps you at the door?

The fact of the matter is that there is only one text, the bible, that speaks of Jesus and the resurrection. The sad thing is there are a number of other gods before Jesus' time that were also celebrated on Dec. 25th, born of a virgin, sent here as the light of the world, crucified, and resurrected on the 3rd day. No one seems to believe in any of those gods. The bible was put together to unite the Roman empire into one religion, for political purposes and nothing more.

It isn't necessarily the scarcity of evidence (which is pretty big in itself), but it is the incredulity of the evidence, and it's unprovability. It's because I would have to sacrifice the scientific method and everything I know about the right way to gather knowledge in order to believe any of it.
 
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drich0150

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Contradictions -
Slavery is ok and enouraged - yet love one's neighbor.
Are you saying one can not love a slave? or is it your belief that all forms of slavery are an afront to love? I do not see a conflict here.

Genocide is condoned in many cases - see above.
Has Genocide been condoned against their neighbors? Or are you saying all people every where are to be considered neighbors?

Rape is not seen as a horrible crime, but one in which a rapist may simply pay the girl's father and then marry her - but marriage is the great union given to us by god.
Is this a contradiction somehow, or is it simply something you personally find distasteful?

Which god do we believe in? How many religions are out there, which how many gods to worship? I'm sure a Muslim believes with just as much faith in his god as you do yours. Hindus, Jews, Mormons... all believe in a god (or perhaps many).
Which is why I asked you what is it you want to believe. For there are many gods all focoused on different aspects of belief.
If I really thought that there was a LOVING creator out there, who wasn't going to send me to a fiery pit for commiting the least of the sins, then why would I chose not to believe in that god? I wouldn't... but biblical evidence points to a chauvinistic, mysogonist god that would rather destroy his entire creation than give them the least bit of help (with his all knowing, and all powerful will that he is supposed to have).
Which is why you have been given this life. To make that desision. For not all want to spend eternity with the God of the bible. For the very reasons you listed.
The more seeking I do, the farther away I am from believing in any of it

This is known as "sifting wheat" In that this life is processing out those who wish to be with God from those who wish to be carried away from God.

Anyother questions?
 
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golgotha61

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The fact of the matter is that there is only one text, the bible, that speaks of Jesus and the resurrection. The sad thing is there are a number of other gods before Jesus' time that were also celebrated on Dec. 25th, born of a virgin, sent here as the light of the world, crucified, and resurrected on the 3rd day. No one seems to believe in any of those gods.

These stories are not at all related in likeness to Christ's advent and some of your accounts are way off. Why don't you give the sources you are getting this info from and a little better story line of these other gods. Perhaps we can shed some light on these stories.

The bible was put together to unite the Roman empire into one religion, for political purposes and nothing more.

The timeline is wrong for this conjecture.

It isn't necessarily the scarcity of evidence (which is pretty big in itself), but it is the incredulity of the evidence, and it's unprovability. It's because I would have to sacrifice the scientific method and everything I know about the right way to gather knowledge in order to believe any of it.

Use the same scientific method used in courtrooms in a trial. The evidence is before you in the form of ....let's say the four Gospels. They have stated their case, each writer of the Gospel, now what is your evidence to refute their statements? After all, if the four Gospel writers are accused of perjury, they have a right to hear the evidence against them.
 
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Johnnz

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But if this great and miraculous thing happened... if a man truely rose from the dead... shouldn't we have more texts or records about it? The ONLY evidence is found in the bible... other evidence for even the existence of Jesus is scarce.

Consider the time. The initial evidence arose from those who had met Christ, either in person, or as Spirit filled believers. It is their testimony and what they relied upon that constitutes the earliest documentary accounts. To others, especially the Romans Jesus was a mere failed messianic aspirant, executed as a criminal in a remote province of a huge empire.

Yet within a few decades of his life Roman society became aware of a new group of people, probably some Jewish offshoot, who became suspect and worthy of persecution. By the end of the 1st Century Domitian recognised their potential threat of undermining Rominatas, the foundational structures of the Roman Empire.

By this time the next generation of Christian leaders were writing, referring back to Jesus and the early eyewitnesses known to them. From the end of the second century knowledge of Christian belief spread rapidly as numbers grew from around 7-10K at the end of the 1st Century, to around 250K a century later, and more than 6M a century after that.

There is an abundance of written and iconic evidence from that period.

John
NZ
 
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ForceofTime

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I lost my faith a number of years ago, and logic and reason have only confirmed it. I am fairly knowledgable about the bible and am looking for anyone who may be able to debate me/show me evidence in a god's favor.

All the evidence you and any other unbeliever requires is coming quickly for you.

My plea to you, GodlessJezabel, is to be prepared to greet it when it comes.
 
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