Debate/Proof?

[GodlessJezabel]

I lost my faith a number of years ago, and logic and reason have only confirmed it. I am fairly knowledgable about the bible and am looking for anyone who may be able to debate me/show me evidence in a god's favor.

 

[drich0150]

I lost my faith a number of years ago, and logic and reason have only confirmed it. I am fairly knowledgable about the bible and am looking for anyone who may be able to debate me/show me evidence in a god's favor.

If you want a debate then many here can accommodate your request. If you want proof of God, then you will have to petition God.
For He provides proof for all who ask, seek and knock for it as out lined in Luke 11.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

If you want a debate then many here can accommodate your request. If you want proof of God, then you will have to petition God.
For He provides proof for all who ask, seek and knock for it as out lined in Luke 11.

At one point, I thought I had proof - and I have since petitioned numberous times with no answer. That is why I am here and asking for debate right now.

 

[motherprayer]

Id like to talk

Do you have a specific topic?

 

[GodlessJezabel]

Id like to talk

Do you have a specific topic?

Hi! I guess the specific topic would be the existence of god... I'm not sure how to make it more specific. I'd be happy to answer questions to narrow it down though. Thank you for your response

 

[Nanopants]

I'm not going to be able to provide you with proof, but I'm anxious to try out a little logic problem, and this would be a good opportunity.

So, do you think that judges should treat people fairly?

 

[GodlessJezabel]

I think it's a judge's job and obligation to be fair.

 

[firstpetertwonine]

Hi Godless, peace be with you. Believe it or not I actually like your screen name, I got a kick out of it.

If you want a debate then many here can accommodate your request. If you want proof of God, then you will have to petition God.
For He provides proof for all who ask, seek and knock for it as out lined in Luke 11.

I second this person. We can try to offer you some reasons to believe (and I happen to believe there are very good, intellectual reasons to believe in Christianity) but ultimately faith is still faith - you have to take the last step of trusting in what those reasons might tell you in spite of the fact that God is not seeable and touchable right here and now before us.

You're having trouble with the very existence of the divine at all? Have you ever heard of the "cosmological" argument for the existence of God? I find this to be the strongest, most convincing argument I know of. It does not prove the veracity of any one specific religion, Christianity or otherwise, but I believe it offers a powerful argument for belief that something divine exists. Try Googling that, lots of good reading to be found about it. We could start with that.

God bless

 

[Nanopants]

I think it's a judge's job and obligation to be fair.

Fair enough. Can we agree that, for whatever reason, fairness from a judge is desirable?

 

[motherprayer]

Hi! I guess the specific topic would be the existence of god... I'm not sure how to make it more specific. I'd be happy to answer questions to narrow it down though. Thank you for your response

I believe in God for a lot of reasons, though I will warn you that none of the reasons I believe involve "empirical evidence" as some people would like to call it.
I believe because God helped me, many times, to see what I could not possibly know in order to guide my steps in the direction I needed to go in order to change my life for the better.
He showed me before I was even a Christian, and that's what got me to believe.
People paint God in so many lights, but God is only one thing, and that is love. Man makes mistakes and God can be a good scapegoat, because He doesn't defend Himself. But the biggest troubles in man's life come from not listening to Him. I learned that lesson the hard way lol

 

[Johnnz]

Today we often confine 'proof' to a rational, scientific model. When it comes to God that just won't work adequately. Why?

a) It's too narrow a concept. 'Proof' has different application depending on the subject matter. Judicial evidence sufficient to convict someone, historical evidence to base something on are quite different from scientific or philosophical proof.
b) We distinguish between objective evidence and subjective experience. However, as living beings, personal experiences and the actual knowing of another cannot be confined to 'objective facts.' Personal knowledge is a different category of knowing.
c) Modern rationalism has not provided us with a conceptual framework of being and morality that is widely accepted as providing a coherent framework for living. It is an emperor without some clothes.

Christian belief in God begins with the knowledge, empirically verified by b) & c) above that the human mind is incapable of encompassing accurate knowledge of God. Thus, there is another category necessary - revelation - a source that transcends our limitations. Jesus stated very plainly "Only the Son (i.e. Me) knows God." I am Truth". It is in the revelation of Jesus to us that we find the most reliable knowledge of God.

John
NZ

 

[GrowingSmaller]

if christ is logos have you really abandoned faith? i mean you are being logical as much as you can be

 

[GrowingSmaller]

do you believe there is a logic to the value of life? a true way leading to life? a branching of spiritual energy into the equations of reality and that life and truth are fullest when witnessed as valuable? that error and death are similar a negation of knowledge? that there is moral error in destructive actions? and peace in the way to the most affirmitive life?

 

[GodlessJezabel]

Hi Godless, peace be with you. Believe it or not I actually like your screen name, I got a kick out of it.



I second this person. We can try to offer you some reasons to believe (and I happen to be there are very good, intellectual reasons to believe in Christianity) but ultimately faith is still faith - you have to take the last step of trusting in what those reasons might tell you in spite of the fact that God is not seeable and touchable right here and now before us.

You're having trouble with the very existence of the divine at all? Have you ever heard of the "cosmological" argument for the existence of God? I find this to be the strongest, most convincing argument I know of. It does not prove the veracity of any one specific religion, Christianity or otherwise, but I believe it offers a powerful argument for belief that something divine exists. Try Googling that, lots of good reading to be found about it. We could start with that.

God bless

I am familiar with the cosmological arguement. However, I find it illogical to assume a "creator" in the absence of an explanation. Just because we aren't certain of the beginnings of the universe does not point to a creator.

Isn't belief without justification (faith) just another way of saying gullibility?

 

[GodlessJezabel]

Today we often confine 'proof' to a rational, scientific model. When it comes to God that just won't work adequately. Why?

a) It's too narrow a concept. 'Proof' has different application depending on the subject matter. Judicial evidence sufficient to convict someone, historical evidence to base something on are quite different from scientific or philosophical proof.
b) We distinguish between objective evidence and subjective experience. However, as living beings, personal experiences and the actual knowing of another cannot be confined to 'objective facts.' Personal knowledge is a different category of knowing.
c) Modern rationalism has not provided us with a conceptual framework of being and morality that is widely accepted as providing a coherent framework for living. It is an emperor without some clothes.

Christian belief in God begins with the knowledge, empirically verified by b) & c) above that the human mind is incapable of encompassing accurate knowledge of God. Thus, there is another category necessary - revelation - a source that transcends our limitations. Jesus stated very plainly "Only the Son (i.e. Me) knows God." I am Truth". It is in the revelation of Jesus to us that we find the most reliable knowledge of God.

John
NZ

Hi John...

Isn't that all we have, though... what we can prove with science?

Basically what you are saying is that anyone who tries to logically reason a god into existence will fail... because god transcends logic? That is ultimately what I have difficulty with. If a god has given me this logical brain, why would he make his existence so difficult for my mind to handle?

 

[GodlessJezabel]

Fair enough. Can we agree that, for whatever reason, fairness from a judge is desirable?

Yes.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

I believe in God for a lot of reasons, though I will warn you that none of the reasons I believe involve "empirical evidence" as some people would like to call it.
I believe because God helped me, many times, to see what I could not possibly know in order to guide my steps in the direction I needed to go in order to change my life for the better.
He showed me before I was even a Christian, and that's what got me to believe.
People paint God in so many lights, but God is only one thing, and that is love. Man makes mistakes and God can be a good scapegoat, because He doesn't defend Himself. But the biggest troubles in man's life come from not listening to Him. I learned that lesson the hard way lol

But diving into the bible, god is not love - he displays many instances of being a mysogonistic tyrannt. The slightest sin causes the wrath and judgement of him.

 

[GodlessJezabel]

do you believe there is a logic to the value of life? a true way leading to life? a branching of spiritual energy into the equations of reality and that life and truth are fullest when witnessed as valuable? that error and death are similar a negation of knowledge? that there is moral error in destructive actions? and peace in the way to the most affirmitive life?

I believe that life is life - and the fact that I am here, living life, is valuable. I don't need anything to know that - this life is all I have, and living it to the fullest is giving my life the utmost meaning.

Death is death, which is a part of life. It is not a negation of knowledge by any means.

I'm not sure what you mean about error. Truth can be found by trial and error...

Peace can come from within.

 

[Nanopants]

Yes.

Ok, good.

So, ideally, if a judge could be perfectly fair, how would you say this judge should go about the business of judging others?

 

[Johnnz]

Hi John...

Isn't that all we have, though... what we can prove with science?

Basically what you are saying is that anyone who tries to logically reason a god into existence will fail... because god transcends logic? That is ultimately what I have difficulty with. If a god has given me this logical brain, why would he make his existence so difficult for my mind to handle?

It's not that logic is abandoned. I won't accept that. I want a reasonable faith. It is not illogical to accept limitations on our intellectual capacity. But information becomes interpreted, and how one does that often is dependant of our preconceptions, often unexamined. The belief in the supremacy and self sufficiency of rationality that has dominated our societies since the Enlightenment is waning. Postmodernism is one challenge.

Here are a couple of links that will give you a better background to what I briefly stated here.

http://www.biblicaltheology.ca/blue_files/Who%20Turned%20Out%20the%20Lights.pdf

http://www.biblicaltheology.ca/Escaping_Margarets_World.pdf

John
NZ