Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

[Proselyte]

Thyneighbor, I am glad that you are with us, that you survived your suicide attempt. I value all life, and now you have a second chance at it.

I know this must be confusing for you, it probably would be for me too. All I can equate to what you must suffer are my own habitual sins which I have battled. Those include pre-marital sex with many women, drug use, alcohol abuse, violence, downloading of music and software...just to name a few. As you can see, there have been many many habitual sins in my past. I still have a tendency towards these things...but I have finally put them behind me. They are in my mind as your homosexuality might be, but if we don't practice them, we have won the battle. Your homosexuality is no worse than anything I have done. My offenses are probably worse because they hurt others.

Just pray about it, it's between you and God.

The Bible clearly does make statements against this lifestyle though. Perhaps you will find some conclusion to this my brother.

 

[crumbs2000]

As we have already seen, for every argument that you can provide to prove that homosexuality is a sin, someone else can provide just as convincing of an arguments that it is not.

I am a born again Christian who happens to be gay and I have researched this topic up one side and down the other. I was a member of an ex-gay ministry for many years. Two years ago, I lost all hope and decided to take my own life. I remember praying to God, as my life blood was seeping away, two prayers: “God please take me home” and “Your will be done”. Since you are reading this message you can infer that he answered the later and not the former.

After I was rescued and I was in the hospital I remember praying to God and asking Him where do I go from here? Before I made the attempt, I quit my job, sold all of earthly possessions, and gave away all of my money. But more than that, I wanted to kill myself because I couldn’t live with the doubt and uncertainty with regards to my faith and my sexual orientation? I’m not one of those Christians that says that God talks to them all the time. I can count on probably two hands the number of times that I have gotten a crystal clear message from the Lord. But that day in the hospital was one of them. God said to me, “My child, I am not going to give you the answer to this question. This burden is too heavy for you to hold. Trust in Me. Give this burden to Me and have faith.”

For me, finding the answer to the question of whether homosexuality is a sin or not became all consuming. It had become, in a way, an idol. It had caused a stumbling block to my relationship with God.

Today, I don’t question the rightness or the wrongness of homosexuality. God knows my heart and He knows my desire to have someone to share my life with and to love.

I have read what some of you have written: that you can’t be a Christian and a practicing homosexual. While I am not actually “practicing” and haven’t for many years, if God blesses me with someone I would be and I don’t believe He would condemn me for doing so. To those that would condemn me I would accuse them of being legalistic and hypocritical.

Mar 10:11 He (Jesus) told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman divorces her husband and remarries, she commits adultery."

Jesus clearly states here that if you are married and get divorced, then you are not to remarry. He considers the “new marriage” an adulterous affair. For each day that you live with that new spouse is unrepentant sin. The average divorce rate, even among Christians, is over 50 percent. Why do you allow these unrepentant “remarried” people in to your churches? If they leave their current spouse and join an ex-remarried ministry I guess it would be okay. After all, we hate the sin and love the sinner.


One last thought before I close, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was He said it was first to love God with all your heart, mind and strength and secondly to love your neighbor as yourself. If you ask any Christian what it is that they value most, second to God, they aren’t going to tell you that it’s their car. They won’t say what they value most is their Rolex or their house. I’m fairly certain that most would say that their greatest treasure is their husband/wife and children. If that is true, how can you love your homosexual neighbor as yourself and yet demand that they deny themselves the one thing that you value above all else?

You have many valid points. I must say that I have to agree with your point on the divorce issue.

Have you watched the movie "SAVED". If not I urge you to see it.

Does it matter what other Christians think? If you love God, then you are a child of God. I think that happiness will come your way, and that you will have that special someone.

Just as an aside, do you believe the bible as a book written by God inspired men but completely fallible like the men who wrote it or compiled it? Or do you believe it is the word of God - perfect and contains no errors whatsoever?

The people who believe the latter will always have a bone of contention with homosexuality.

I wish you all the best in your life and may you encounter many loving Christians along the way!!!!

 

[Sam Gamgee]

As we have already seen, for every argument that you can provide to prove that homosexuality is a sin, someone else can provide just as convincing of an arguments that it is not.

I am a born again Christian who happens to be gay and I have researched this topic up one side and down the other. I was a member of an ex-gay ministry for many years. Two years ago, I lost all hope and decided to take my own life. I remember praying to God, as my life blood was seeping away, two prayers: “God please take me home” and “Your will be done”. Since you are reading this message you can infer that he answered the later and not the former.

After I was rescued and I was in the hospital I remember praying to God and asking Him where do I go from here? Before I made the attempt, I quit my job, sold all of earthly possessions, and gave away all of my money. But more than that, I wanted to kill myself because I couldn’t live with the doubt and uncertainty with regards to my faith and my sexual orientation? I’m not one of those Christians that says that God talks to them all the time. I can count on probably two hands the number of times that I have gotten a crystal clear message from the Lord. But that day in the hospital was one of them. God said to me, “My child, I am not going to give you the answer to this question. This burden is too heavy for you to hold. Trust in Me. Give this burden to Me and have faith.”

For me, finding the answer to the question of whether homosexuality is a sin or not became all consuming. It had become, in a way, an idol. It had caused a stumbling block to my relationship with God.

Today, I don’t question the rightness or the wrongness of homosexuality. God knows my heart and He knows my desire to have someone to share my life with and to love.

I have read what some of you have written: that you can’t be a Christian and a practicing homosexual. While I am not actually “practicing” and haven’t for many years, if God blesses me with someone I would be and I don’t believe He would condemn me for doing so. To those that would condemn me I would accuse them of being legalistic and hypocritical.

Mar 10:11 He (Jesus) told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman divorces her husband and remarries, she commits adultery."

Jesus clearly states here that if you are married and get divorced, then you are not to remarry. He considers the “new marriage” an adulterous affair. For each day that you live with that new spouse is unrepentant sin. The average divorce rate, even among Christians, is over 50 percent. Why do you allow these unrepentant “remarried” people in to your churches? If they leave their current spouse and join an ex-remarried ministry I guess it would be okay. After all, we hate the sin and love the sinner.


One last thought before I close, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was He said it was first to love God with all your heart, mind and strength and secondly to love your neighbor as yourself. If you ask any Christian what it is that they value most, second to God, they aren’t going to tell you that it’s their car. They won’t say what they value most is their Rolex or their house. I’m fairly certain that most would say that their greatest treasure is their husband/wife and children. If that is true, how can you love your homosexual neighbor as yourself and yet demand that they deny themselves the one thing that you value above all else?

You are truly a child of God...
Thanks for sharing such a painful, yet wondeful, story about how God loves all his children...


God Bless You

 

[MapleLeaf]

ThyNeighbor

Thank you for sharing your story. Sadly it is repeated way too many times in society today. So many Christians seem to forget all about judging others and the fact that they too are sinners.

God created each of us and God loves each of us.

May the Lord bless and keep you.
May the Lord's face shine upon you
God will grant you peace

Blessings,
MapleLeaf

 

[Colabomb]

Please do not misunderstand this post. PLEASE do not take this wrong!

But I have to ask. Should we tell the Kleptomaniac it is acceptable to steal because they have such a strong urge to do so?

We all struggle with sin. The difference lies in how we respond to our struggles. Do we continually fight, even if we fall, or do we give in?

 

[Proselyte]

Please do not misunderstand this post. PLEASE do not take this wrong!

But I have to ask. Should we tell the Kleptomaniac it is acceptable to steal because they have such a strong urge to do so?

We all struggle with sin. The difference lies in how we respond to our struggles. Do we continually fight, even if we fall, or do we give in?

Right!

This is the kind of example I have been giving. We are not judging. There is a difference between attacking someone who has habitual sin who wants to change, and someone who has habitual sin, advocating that it is ok to continue to do so and to encourage others as well.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Right!

This is the kind of example I have been giving. We are not judging. There is a difference between attacking someone who has habitual sin who wants to change, and someone who has habitual sin, advocating that it is ok to continue to do so and to encourage others as well.

Right but you are judging regardless of what you say.

Unless you equally condemn overweight people (gluttons), those who eat shellfish, wear mixed fibers, plant a field with mixed seeds then you are judging and condeming gay people.

Now Leviticus says people can make atonement by having a priest slaughter a ram - do you think my local Roman Catholic Priest would be willing to do this?

 

[Proselyte]

Right but you are judging regardless of what you say.

Unless you equally condemn overweight people (gluttons), those who eat shellfish, wear mixed fibers, plant a field with mixed seeds then you are judging and condeming gay people.

Now Leviticus says people can make atonement by having a priest slaughter a ram - do you think my local Roman Catholic Priest would be willing to do this?

/sigh

There is a difference between "judging" someone for unavoidable sin, and allowing behavior the Bible clearly states is wrong, and is being encouraged to others on this forum. Would we turn a blind eye to someone advocating illegal drugs, theft, rape? We are not saying anyone with homosexual tendencies or urges are doomed. We are debating those who say homosexuality is a blessed life style and are telling other Christians it's ok.
In fact, we are being very tolerant. The Bible says

1 Corinthians 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Clearly we are still talking to and trying to help homosexual Christians.

If we turned a blind eye to everything as you are suggesting, new and confused Christians may stumble when they read these behaviors are ok.

 

[MapleLeaf]

/sigh

There is a difference between "judging" someone for unavoidable sin, and allowing behavior the Bible clearly states is wrong, and is being encouraged to others on this forum. Would we turn a blind eye to someone advocating illegal drugs, theft, rape? We are not saying anyone with homosexual tendencies or urges are doomed. We are debating those who say homosexuality is a blessed life style and are telling other Christians it's ok.
In fact, we are being very tolerant. The Bible says

1 Corinthians 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Clearly we are still talking to and trying to help homosexual Christians.

If we turned a blind eye to everything as you are suggesting, new and confused Christians may stumble when they read these behaviors are ok.

Okay 1 quick question for you. 1 Cor 6 was written by Paul, but Paul is not God - he was a human. In fact it was made very clear to us in Systematic Theology (taught at a Catholic Sem) that Paul was really the 1st systematic theologian.

While his word counts for something, in reality it is not the word of God and should NEVER be taken as such. If you want the word of God, look to the OT or the Gospels (even then a literal interpretation was frowned upon).

To say that Paul is speaking the word of God, would in fact be making him a God in his own right... that my friend is idolatry.

If you would like to debate the meaning of 1 Cor 6 based on what was written in Greek and Hebrew AND based on the cultural context in which it was written, I am happy to do that (but not today - a nice pub awaits... time with friends )

 

[Colabomb]

Okay 1 quick question for you. 1 Cor 6 was written by Paul, but Paul is not God - he was a human. In fact it was made very clear to us in Systematic Theology (taught at a Catholic Sem) that Paul was really the 1st systematic theologian.

While his word counts for something, in reality it is not the word of God and should NEVER be taken as such. If you want the word of God, look to the OT or the Gospels (even then a literal interpretation was frowned upon).

To say that Paul is speaking the word of God, would in fact be making him a God in his own right... that my friend is idolatry.

If you would like to debate the meaning of 1 Cor 6 based on what was written in Greek and Hebrew AND based on the cultural context in which it was written, I am happy to do that (but not today - a nice pub awaits... time with friends )

The Gospels were not written by Christ. How do you know they do not fall under the same "Biases"?

 

[Colabomb]

Right but you are judging regardless of what you say.

Unless you equally condemn overweight people (gluttons), those who eat shellfish, wear mixed fibers, plant a field with mixed seeds then you are judging and condeming gay people.

Now Leviticus says people can make atonement by having a priest slaughter a ram - do you think my local Roman Catholic Priest would be willing to do this?

This is a strawman. We are not under the law, but under Christ.

Homosexuality was condemned however after Christ, after the institution of the Church.

Yes, I'll eat Shellfish, because I am set free from the law. However, being set free from the law does not imply that we may do whatever we please.

 

[Proselyte]

To say that Paul is speaking the word of God, would in fact be making him a God in his own right... that my friend is idolatry.

So you have ruled out that Paul's writings could be God channeling or divinely inspiring His perfect word through Paul? That Paul was an instrument of God? That would not be idolatry.

 

[Kgreg]

So you have ruled out that Paul's writings could be God channeling or divinely inspiring His perfect word through Paul? That Paul was an instrument of God? That would not be idolatry.

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God.

To deny the divinity of the Holy Scriptures is heresy.

 

[Proselyte]

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God.

To deny the divinity of the Holy Scriptures is heresy.

Great! I should have used that quote. I did in an earlier post. Thanks for the support.

 

[Kgreg]

Okay 1 quick question for you. 1 Cor 6 was written by Paul, but Paul is not God - he was a human. In fact it was made very clear to us in Systematic Theology (taught at a Catholic Sem) that Paul was really the 1st systematic theologian.

While his word counts for something, in reality it is not the word of God and should NEVER be taken as such. If you want the word of God, look to the OT or the Gospels (even then a literal interpretation was frowned upon).

To say that Paul is speaking the word of God, would in fact be making him a God in his own right... that my friend is idolatry.

If you would like to debate the meaning of 1 Cor 6 based on what was written in Greek and Hebrew AND based on the cultural context in which it was written, I am happy to do that (but not today - a nice pub awaits... time with friends )

This is liberal Christian doctrine. The old "the Bible is just a book of stories to help us be a better citizen" position.

I love it when new posters arrive here and think they are going to deconstruct 2000 years of Christian orthodoxy.

Maple Leaf, do you know HunterRose or outlaw from Ethics and Morality? Just wondering.

 

[mommylatier2002]

Revelation 22:18-19

John 1:1

FYI the Word=Bible

2 Peter 1:19-21

For one-- theology is not Faith. Theology is man-made and it will not get you into Heaven. The Holy-Spirit will-- and that is something that Paul had. Paul was dead to the world-- he was totally souled out for Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:1-3- creating your own idol is trying to rationalize your sin by attempting to discredit the Bible based on your personal feelings. remember-- feelings lie.
Anything catholicism says about Paul doesn't influence me. The Bible (Acts 13:19) states Paul was filled by the Holy spirit and lots of people got mad at him for what he preached. HEAD TO THE CONVICTION. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. (1st Peter 5:5)

I have love for you and do not want to see you parish. There are a lot of things my flesh wishes the Bible doesn't say but It does and I want to see Him.

 

[No Swansong]

Right but you are judging regardless of what you say.

Unless you equally condemn overweight people (gluttons), those who eat shellfish, wear mixed fibers, plant a field with mixed seeds then you are judging and condeming gay people.

Now Leviticus says people can make atonement by having a priest slaughter a ram - do you think my local Roman Catholic Priest would be willing to do this?

Actually Paul's writings are New Testament not Old Covenant from which we are freed.

 

[ThyNeighbor]

Have you watched the movie "SAVED". If not I urge you to see it.

No, but I just looked it up on the internet and it looks interesting.

Does it matter what other Christians think? If you love God, then you are a child of God. I think that happiness will come your way, and that you will have that special someone.

I wish that I could say that it doesn't matter what other Christians think. We are all influnenced by the opinion of others to some degree, especially by those with whom we call family. Other Christians are my brothers and sisters. When they say that I am not one of them because I am gay, it hurts. When they define me by sexuality, make assumptions about my behavior, and speak of me as if I was less than human, it hurts.

Thank you for that. It is my prayer that God will put someone in my life.

Just as an aside, do you believe the bible as a book written by God inspired men but completely fallible like the men who wrote it or compiled it? Or do you believe it is the word of God - perfect and contains no errors whatsoever?

I believe that the original text is the inspired Word of God and is without error. I do not believe that man's translation or interpretation of that text is infallible. If there was perfect translation then there would be no need for more than one version and history has shown us time and again that man's interpretation is fallible.

The people who believe the latter will always have a bone of contention with homosexuality.

I wish you all the best in your life and may you encounter many loving Christians along the way!!!!

I think that within 10-20 years people will view homosexuality the way we view slavery today and that the church will change it's position.

If you were to take a Southern Baptist preacher who from the 1800's and bring him forward in time to today I think he would call us all heretics. Likewise, I think if you bring a Christian from the future backwards in time today he would call fundamentalists Christians today prejuduced bigots. Time will tell.

Thank you again for your kindness.

 

[Colabomb]

ThyNeigbor.

I would like to make it clear to you that those of us who are against homosexuality are not anti-homosexual. We value you as a person that God saw fit to die for, with Thoughts and Emotions like anyone else. To go out of our way to hurt you would be nothing but sinful.

The debate will get even more heated I am sure. But understand in the midst of all of this, we still love you, and we pray for you.

God Bless

 

[Proselyte]

ThyNeigbor.

I would like to make it clear to you that those of us who are against homosexuality are not anti-homosexual. We value you as a person that God saw fit to die for, with Thoughts and Emotions like anyone else. To go out of our way to hurt you would be nothing but sinful.

The debate will get even more heated I am sure. But understand in the midst of all of this, we still love you, and we pray for you.

God Bless

My feelings exactly.