Death & Resurrection - What happens?

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
all (the dead) await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

And Peter says to fix your hope completely on the 2nd coming. 1 Peter 1:13

Not sure that is true. Elijah and Enoch got to heaven without resurrection and there may be others we do not know about.

True - but the focus of this thread is on the resurrection and the Bible points to the Christians to the 2nd coming resurrection event.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

We know that some heavenly citizens were resurrected before the big event of the resurrection e.g. Moses ( also there is a strong tradition regarding Mary).

Also there is this verse:

Matthew 27:52

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
No - all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

And Peter says to fix your hope completely on the 2nd coming. 1 Peter 1:13

Not sure that is true. Elijah and Enoch got to heaven without resurrection and there may be others we do not know about.

True - but the focus of this thread is on the resurrection and the Bible points to the Christians to the 2nd coming resurrection event.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

We know that some heavenly citizens were resurrected before the big event of the resurrection e.g. Moses ( also there is a strong tradition regarding Mary).

Also there is this verse:

Matthew 27:52

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.[/QUOTE]

 

[Eloy Craft]

- all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

This may include those who didn't experience death or like Moses taken up whole after.

Matthew 27:52

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

A distinction is likely between their state and Resurrection that Christ won.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
- all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

This may include those who didn't experience death or like Moses taken up whole after.

No text says that Elijah or Enoch await the resurrection.

Jude refers to the book "the Assumption of Moses" indicating that Moses had already been bodily resurrected and assumed bodily into heaven - prior to Matthew 17 where he appears with Elijah.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
- all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

This may include those who didn't experience death or like Moses taken up whole after.

No text says that Elijah or Enoch await the resurrection.

Jude refers to the book "the Assumption of Moses" indicating that Moses had already been bodily resurrected and assumed bodily into heaven - prior to Matthew 17 where he appears with Elijah.

 

[mindlight]

BobRyan said: ↑
No - all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

And Peter says to fix your hope completely on the 2nd coming. 1 Peter 1:13



True - but the focus of this thread is on the resurrection and the Bible points to the Christians to the 2nd coming resurrection event.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

We know that some heavenly citizens were resurrected before the big event of the resurrection e.g. Moses ( also there is a strong tradition regarding Mary).

Also there is this verse:

Matthew 27:52

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

The appearance of being asleep is a good description of a dead body but 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23 imply that one can be with the Lord in a disembodied form. Soul sleep does not look biblical to me. Basically we live once are judged at the moment of our deaths ( Hebrews 9) and then go either to paradise or Hades. At the end of time we are resurrected and receive a glorified version of our bodily form back.

I wonder what the difference is between those who never lost their bodies e.g Enoch and Elijah and normal believers who exist with God in a disembodied form. If there is no difference then what is the value of receiving a resurrection body?

 

[God bless Joshua]

So Christian martyrs may already be with God but the rest of us await the resurrection?

There are 2 important points seen by John in heaven
1.The great multitutde who came out of the tribulation
2. the souls under the Altar waiting for their numbers accomplished in the grief tribulation.

Where will we belong if we are left behind ?

 

[Eloy Craft]

BobRyan said: ↑
- all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.



No text says that Elijah or Enoch await the resurrection.

Jude refers to the book "the Assumption of Moses" indicating that Moses had already been bodily resurrected and assumed bodily into heaven - prior to Matthew 17 where he appears with Elijah.

Do you think Paul didn't know about Enoch or Elijah? That if Paul thought that their state of life was a resurrection of the flesh he would teach 'all await the resurrection'?Do you suggest at the Transfiguration they were talking to Jesus from the heaven that He would open with His death? That they had won centuries before Jesus what Jesus came to accomplish? No where does it say they were resurrected either. That's not a term used to describe what happened to them. Enoch walked with God and God took him. Elijah 'went up'. Just because someone doesn't experience death or their body reunites with their soul, doesn't equate to resurrection.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I wonder what the difference is between those who never lost their bodies e.g Enoch and Elijah and normal believers who exist with God in a disembodied form. If there is no difference then what is the value of receiving a resurrection body?

They aren't longing for their bodies. They are in the natural state of human life. Human nature is a body and soul. A disembodied soul exists in an unnatural state. Elijah and Moses are still 'persons' A disembodied soul is no longer a person. Interesting that the Apostles knew who they were having never seen them before. They should have been two strangers Jesus was talking to. The mode of knowing before the fall was intuitive. There is nothing to obstruct the mind from knowing the truth of another person. I suggest that they existed in an immortal state but not a state that is only accessible by conquering death by their own power like Jesus did. They were not glorified. They are waiting for that. They were in a similar state as Adam in Paradise before the fall, like Jesus on earth before the resurrection.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
- all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

This may include those who didn't experience death or like Moses taken up whole after.

No text says that Elijah or Enoch await the resurrection.

Jude refers to the book "the Assumption of Moses" indicating that Moses had already been bodily resurrected and assumed bodily into heaven - prior to Matthew 17 where he appears with Elijah.

Do you think Paul didn't know about Enoch or Elijah?

Far be it from me to claim such a thing.

Hebrews 11 says Enoch did not die. No one who has not died would need to be resurrected from the dead... "by definition".

That if Paul thought that their state of life was a resurrection of the flesh he would teach 'all await the resurrection'?Do you suggest at the Transfiguration they were talking to Jesus from the heaven that He would open with His death?

All three were standing there together in Matthew 17 - all in glorified form. Sinless and not in need of resurrection of any kind.

Enoch walked with God and God took him. Elijah 'went up'. Just because someone doesn't experience death or their body reunites with their soul, doesn't equate to resurrection.

I never claimed that Enoch or Elijah needed resurrection from the dead -- they never died so they would not need it.

 

[Eloy Craft]

says Enoch did not die. No one who has not died would need to be resurrected from the dead... "by definition".

that is only your definition.

 

[Eloy Craft]

never claimed that Enoch or Elijah needed resurrection

that response is odd since that is my claim.

 

[BobRyan]

that response is odd since that is my claim.

Just goes to show that we can't differ on every point.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Heb 11 says Enoch did not die. No one who has not died would need to be resurrected from the dead... "by definition".

that is only your definition.

How many ways to say it...?

Heb 11 says Enoch did not die. No one who has not died would need to be resurrected from the dead... "by definition".

 

[Eloy Craft]

How many ways to say it...?

Heb 11 says Enoch did not die. No one who has not died would need to be resurrected from the dead... "by definition".

When the resurrection of the dead happens there will be people alive on earth who will also be changed according to St Paul. They haven't died yet they need resurrection.

 

[BobRyan]

When the resurrection of the dead happens there will be people alive on earth who will also be changed according to St Paul. They haven't died yet

And no one who is alive at that time will need a resurrection from the dead - they are not dead.

I think you are conflating "translation" of the living righteous -- with "resurrection of the dead" - both of which will happen at the 2nd coming as we see in 1Cor 15 and 1Thess 4. The term "resurrection" only covers one of those concepts. You seem to be using it to cover both.

But translation of the living is not at all "resurrection from the dead" other than the end-result of being alive and having a new body.

1Thess 4 "the DEAD in Christ will rise FIRST" -- resurrection
1Thess 4 "THEN we who ARE alive and REMAIN will be caught up" --translation

 

[Eloy Craft]

And no one who is alive at that time will need a resurrection from the dead - they are not dead.

I think you are conflating "translation" of the living righteous -- with "resurrection of the dead" - both of which will happen at the 2nd coming as we see in 1Cor 15 and 1Thess 4. The term "resurrection" only covers one of those concepts. You seem to be using it to cover both.

But translation of the living is not at all "resurrection from the dead" other than the end-result of being alive and having a new body.

1Thess 4 "the DEAD in Christ will rise FIRST" -- resurrection
1Thess 4 "THEN we who ARE alive and REMAIN will be caught up" --translation

But aren't you saying that Elijah and other's aren't waiting for the 2nd coming to be 'translated' among the living righteous? That they had been elevated to the state of life that Jesus accessed by conquering death before Jesus did?

And thank you for clarifying terms. I'm sure it will help alot communicating these concepts