Death & Resurrection - What happens?

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I was talking to a hospice nurse , after the Good Friday service, in church today about her experience of patients dying. This conversation provoked some questions.

As a believer I believe that I like Jesus will one day die (unless he comes back before that) and then will be resurrected.

But what does it mean for me to die and be resurrected.

1) SOUL SLEEP: Do you believe that you are conscious when you die. that you experience death with some kind of consciousness. It seems that a large number of people have had out of body experiences which seem to imply that a person remains conscious even when clinically dead. Or will everything just go dark until God resurrects us with new glorified bodies.

2) DISEMBODIED SPIRITS: In revelation it talks about the martyrs under the throne exclaiming to God "How long O Lord until we see justice". Are these disembodied spirits waiting to be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection. Can some spirits get lost on their way or clinging to this life and its unfinished business become ghosts?

3) THE PATH THE DEAD TAKE: Jesus said to the thief on the cross - this very day you will be with me in paradise, but that same day he went to preach to the spirits of the dead in Hades. I have some difficulty getting my head around the fact he was somehow in heaven and hades in the same moment. When we die do we go straight to be with God and then later get resurrected to a judgment whose conclusion is already clear. Is our actual judgment at the end of time or at the moment of our death.

I would be interested to hear Christian reflection on each of these 3 main questions.
 

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1) SOUL SLEEP: Do you believe that you are conscious when you die. that you experience death with some kind of consciousness. It seems that a large number of people have had out of body experiences which seem to imply that a person remains conscious even when clinically dead. Or will everything just go dark until God resurrects us with new glorified bodies.

I don't think we'll be conscious of this world; I think we move on.

2) DISEMBODIED SPIRITS: In revelation it talks about the martyrs under the throne exclaiming to God "How long O Lord until we see justice". Are these disembodied spirits waiting to be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection. Can some spirits get lost on their way or clinging to this life and its unfinished business become ghosts?

No ghosts... Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

3) THE PATH THE DEAD TAKE: Jesus said to the thief on the cross - this very day you will be with me in paradise, but that same day he went to preach to the spirits of the dead in Hades. I have some difficulty getting my head around the fact he was somehow in heaven and hades in the same moment. When we die do we go straight to be with God and then later get resurrected to a judgment whose conclusion is already clear. Is our actual judgment at the end of time or at the moment of our death.

Jesus is Jesus; He could/can be in more than one place at the same time.

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8.
 
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1) SOUL SLEEP: Do you believe that you are conscious when you die.
Angel Gabriel who has watched mankind civilization since the time of Adam has said that people who die will sleep in the dust until the judgment day.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Even Daniel was told that he shall rest/die and awaiting his heritage at the end of days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

and Paul has written about those people who are ASLEEP/died :
1 Thes 4:13 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP......

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

Those SLEEP/DIED in Christ will be raised (as foretold by Gabriel too) including the thief on the cross :
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 
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God bless Joshua

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2) DISEMBODIED SPIRITS: Are these disembodied spirits waiting to be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection
In the vision of the Grief Tribulation, John saw a great multitude of people in heaven
revelation7.jpg


John has been explained who are these multitude,
14....These are they which came out of great tribulation,
These multitude with their physical bodies wont suffer from hunger or heat or thirst any longer.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Their bodies therefore become incorruptible as prophesied by Paul :
1 Cor 15:52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

THE GREAT MULTITUDE CONSIST OF THE RESURRECTED CHRISTIANS SINCE THE EARLY CHURCH (including the thief on the cross) AND THE LIVING SAINTS.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
lasttrumpet.jpg



BUT JOHN HAS ALSO SEEN THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS IN HEAVEN, THESE WERE ASKED TO BE PATIENT.
slide_8.jpg

11...they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Copts-2.jpg


THE MARTYRS UNDER THE ALTAR WHO DIED IN 7 YEARS OF GRIEF TRIBULATION WILL BE WAITING FOR THEIR RESURRECTION SO TO RULE WITH CHRIST WHEN THE TRIBULATION IS OVER.
Rev 20:4 ....and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived again....

So these martyrs souls will be placed immediately under the altar during the Grief Tribulation, which is the final 7 years of sinful civilization.
 
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mindlight

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I don't think we'll be conscious of this world; I think we move on.

Even if I pass directly to another plane of existence if my consciousness remains mine then I think it will include connections and memories with people I have loved. Moving on to the greater love of God will not diminish my love for my wife or children or parents or brothers but will put it in a new overwhelmingly more powerful context and perspective.

No ghosts... Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

Solomons observations on the fact that the dead fade from the memory of the living and are not available for comment not with standing there is not denial of the possibility of ghosts in these verses.

Jesus is Jesus; He could/can be in more than one place at the same time.

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Presumably we who image God have some kind of capacity to persist as a body while non the less being transported to another plane of existence. Is the consciousness we have tied to that body though and does it dissipate with the bodies disassembling in the grave or does it persist. It seems that the martyrs under the throne are conscious and even of the tragedies of this life that forced them into Gods throne room. But they are not yet resurrected, so are they disembodied?
 
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mindlight

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Angel Gabriel who has watched mankind civilization since the time of Adam has said that people who die will sleep in the dust until the judgment day.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Even Daniel was told that he shall rest/die and awaiting his heritage at the end of days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

and Paul has written about those people who are ASLEEP/died :
1 Thes 4:13 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP......

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

Those SLEEP/DIED in Christ will be raised (as foretold by Gabriel too) including the thief on the cross :
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

OK that is a biblical defence of soul sleep. So how do you handle accounts of near death experience in which people leave their clinically dead bodies and yet can describe what the people there are doing in their absence and before their return to their bodies. How do you account for the martyrs described in the fifth seal judgment.
 
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mindlight

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In the vision of the Grief Tribulation, John saw a great multitude of people in heaven
revelation7.jpg


John has been explained who are these multitude,
14....These are they which came out of great tribulation,
These multitude with their physical bodies wont suffer from hunger or heat or thirst any longer.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Their bodies therefore become incorruptible as prophesied by Paul :
1 Cor 15:52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

THE GREAT MULTITUDE CONSIST OF THE RESURRECTED CHRISTIANS SINCE THE EARLY CHURCH (including the thief on the cross) AND THE LIVING SAINTS.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
lasttrumpet.jpg



BUT JOHN HAS ALSO SEEN THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS IN HEAVEN, THESE WERE ASKED TO BE PATIENT.
slide_8.jpg

11...they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Copts-2.jpg


THE MARTYRS UNDER THE ALTAR WHO DIED IN 7 YEARS OF GRIEF TRIBULATION WILL BE WAITING FOR THEIR RESURRECTION SO TO RULE WITH CHRIST WHEN THE TRIBULATION IS OVER.
Rev 20:4 ....and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived again....

So these martyrs souls will be placed immediately under the altar during the Grief Tribulation, which is the final 7 years of sinful civilization.

So Christian martyrs may already be with God but the rest of us await the resurrection?
 
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Even if I pass directly to another plane of existence if my consciousness remains mine then I think it will include connections and memories with people I have loved. Moving on to the greater love of God will not diminish my love for my wife or children or parents or brothers but will put it in a new overwhelmingly more powerful context and perspective.

I hope so, otherwise memories and separation would be painful.

Solomons observations on the fact that the dead fade from the memory of the living and are not available for comment not with standing there is not denial of the possibility of ghosts in these verses.

But Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 is pretty direct, don't you think.

Presumably we who image God have some kind of capacity to persist as a body while non the less being transported to another plane of existence. Is the consciousness we have tied to that body though and does it dissipate with the bodies disassembling in the grave or does it persist. It seems that the martyrs under the throne are conscious and even of the tragedies of this life that forced them into Gods throne room. But they are not yet resurrected, so are they disembodied?

Maybe the martyrs were symbolisms.
 
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BobRyan

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I was talking to a hospice nurse , after the Good Friday service, in church today about her experience of patients dying. This conversation provoked some questions.

As a believer I believe that I like Jesus will one day die (unless he comes back before that) and then will be resurrected.

But what does it mean for me to die and be resurrected.

1) SOUL SLEEP: Do you believe that you are conscious when you die. that you experience death with some kind of consciousness. It seems that a large number of people have had out of body experiences which seem to imply that a person remains conscious even when clinically dead. Or will everything just go dark until God resurrects us with new glorified bodies.

2) DISEMBODIED SPIRITS: In revelation it talks about the martyrs under the throne exclaiming to God "How long O Lord until we see justice". Are these disembodied spirits waiting to be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection. Can some spirits get lost on their way or clinging to this life and its unfinished business become ghosts?

3) THE PATH THE DEAD TAKE: Jesus said to the thief on the cross - this very day you will be with me in paradise, but that same day he went to preach to the spirits of the dead in Hades. I have some difficulty getting my head around the fact he was somehow in heaven and hades in the same moment. When we die do we go straight to be with God and then later get resurrected to a judgment whose conclusion is already clear. Is our actual judgment at the end of time or at the moment of our death.

I would be interested to hear Christian reflection on each of these 3 main questions.

1. Soul Sleep is correct see 1 Thess 4. (and the fact that people have odd experiences when their brain is going through a shut-down-sequence should not be too surprising).

1 Thess 4

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

2. The text is from Rev 6 and is very symbolic. It describes all saints in heaven as somehow pinned down below the altar and just crying out for vengeance ...

3. Jesus did not say "you will be in paradise with me today" in Luke 23. In fact in John 20 Jesus at his resurrection had still not been to paradise.

Luke 23
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”​
 
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So Christian martyrs may already be with God but the rest of us await the resurrection?

No - all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

And Peter says to fix your hope completely on the 2nd cominig. 1 Peter 1:13
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Apocalypse of St. John describes the holy martyrs before God, and they are described as not only conscious, but aware of the goings-ons here on earth, and indeed they pray for us on earth. I'm not suggesting that this is to be understood strictly literally (the Apocalypse isn't a literal text), but it is noteworthy that this is how the dead in Christ are depicted in Scripture.

All of the details are not available to us, especially as it concerns the fate of the wicked or the nature of "Hell"; but as far as concerns our hope, we are confident that between death and resurrection we will be with the Lord, and at His coming the dead are raised and we shall share in the beautiful and beatific life of the Age to Come, the new heavens and the new earth which shall never cease. This is the historic teaching of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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So Christian martyrs may already be with God but the rest of us await the resurrection?

All the holy saints who have fallen asleep are with the Lord, present with Him until the Lord comes again in glory and the dead are raised. The author of Hebrews reminds us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Eloy Craft

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3) THE PATH THE DEAD TAKE: Jesus said to the thief on the cross - this very day you will be with me in paradise, but that same day he went to preach to the spirits of the dead in Hades. I have some difficulty getting my head around the fact he was somehow in heaven and hades in the same moment. When we die do we go straight to be with God and then later get resurrected to a judgment whose conclusion is already clear. Is our actual judgment at the end of time or at the moment of our death.
After Adam was banned from Paradise his seventh generation descendant Enoch was taken up body and soul. The heaven Enoch went up to couldn't have been the heaven that Jesus sacrifice opened.

In the OT there are three heavens and the third is where God dwells. There must be another that isn't accessible until Jesus. I believe Enoch was taken up into Paradise. Adam was immortal there and only suffered bodily death after the fall. Elijah was taken up as well. Satan argued over Moses body. This implies the argument was about him going up body and soul too. Paradise was where God was with Adam and Eve. Not the first heaven of sky. Not the second heaven of stars. Paradise to me seems to be the third heaven where God is before the NT.

When Jesus Transfigured He went up Mount Tabor. High up on the mountain where He showed His Glory. Not the Glory of the second coming. But the Glory before He resurrected. In the light of His Transfiguration high on the mountain, the disciples could see Elijah and Moses. I guess Satan lost the argument over Moses' body. The Holy of Holy's had not been opened yet. The veil had not been torn. The door that His Passion opens had not happened. In fact that is what He was talking to Elijah and Moses about. Before Jesus resurrection He was able to be in the heaven where Elijah and Enoch were, the heaven that was accessible ( paradise )before He opened up the highest heaven. The heaven only He could open in the fullness of time.

Before heaven is opened by Jesus, heaven is Paradise, where Adam was before the fall, and where God was with those who He would take up to be with Him.. This was heaven before Jesus Resurrected. This is where Jesus said the Good thief would be with Him on that day. Paradise, where Adam was before he sinned. It would be a couple days before he could be taken up higher with Jesus after the Resurrection along with all the other righteous souls in Hades.
 
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mindlight

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No - all await the resurrection -- even Paul as he reminds us in Phil 3.

And Peter says to fix your hope completely on the 2nd cominig. 1 Peter 1:13

Not sure that is true. Elijah and Enoch got to heaven without resurrection and there may be others we do not know about. We know that some heavenly citizens were resurrected before the big event of the resurrection e.g. Moses ( also there is a strong tradition regarding Mary).

Also there is this verse:

Matthew 27:52

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
 
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The Apocalypse of St. John describes the holy martyrs before God, and they are described as not only conscious, but aware of the goings-ons here on earth, and indeed they pray for us on earth. I'm not suggesting that this is to be understood strictly literally (the Apocalypse isn't a literal text), but it is noteworthy that this is how the dead in Christ are depicted in Scripture.

All of the details are not available to us, especially as it concerns the fate of the wicked or the nature of "Hell"; but as far as concerns our hope, we are confident that between death and resurrection we will be with the Lord, and at His coming the dead are raised and we shall share in the beautiful and beatific life of the Age to Come, the new heavens and the new earth which shall never cease. This is the historic teaching of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLuthearn

Continued consciousness seems to contradict soul sleep. But that is the implication of the passage about the martyrs in Revelation. It is hard to think of them as mere symbols. Martyrdom in the last century is very real and hardly merely a symbol and there is a cry for justice that is very real also.

To some extent we just do not know and simply need to trust that Jesus will work out the details. But to the extent that he has given us guidance I would like to understand.

So do some simply sleep, some remain conscious and some are resurrected straight to heaven like Moses. Do all martyrs do the Moses thing while the rest of us do not. The teaching of the church and scripture does not seem clear here.
 
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mindlight

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All the holy saints who have fallen asleep are with the Lord, present with Him until the Lord comes again in glory and the dead are raised. The author of Hebrews reminds us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

-CryptoLutheran

The Catholic view that the church visible and invisible march side by side and that indeed communication with saints is possible in prayer militates against soul sleep. But since my dead Christian grandfather sends me no messages I guess this witness role is passive in reality. So are all these dead saints asleep and dreaming in some grand dormitory in the sky waiting for the resurrection or are they in conversation with God about the goings on in the church visible here on earth.
 
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After Adam was banned from Paradise his seventh generation descendant Enoch was taken up body and soul. The heaven Enoch went up to couldn't have been the heaven that Jesus sacrifice opened.

In the OT there are three heavens and the third is where God dwells. There must be another that isn't accessible until Jesus. I believe Enoch was taken up into Paradise. Adam was immortal there and only suffered bodily death after the fall. Elijah was taken up as well. Satan argued over Moses body. This implies the argument was about him going up body and soul too. Paradise was where God was with Adam and Eve. Not the first heaven of sky. Not the second heaven of stars. Paradise to me seems to be the third heaven where God is before the NT.

When Jesus Transfigured He went up Mount Tabor. High up on the mountain where He showed His Glory. Not the Glory of the second coming. But the Glory before He resurrected. In the light of His Transfiguration high on the mountain, the disciples could see Elijah and Moses. I guess Satan lost the argument over Moses' body. The Holy of Holy's had not been opened yet. The veil had not been torn. The door that His Passion opens had not happened. In fact that is what He was talking to Elijah and Moses about. Before Jesus resurrection He was able to be in the heaven where Elijah and Enoch were, the heaven that was accessible ( paradise )before He opened up the highest heaven. The heaven only He could open in the fullness of time.

Before heaven is opened by Jesus, heaven is Paradise, where Adam was before the fall, and where God was with those who He would take up to be with Him.. This was heaven before Jesus Resurrected. This is where Jesus said the Good thief would be with Him on that day. Paradise, where Adam was before he sinned. It would be a couple days before he could be taken up higher with Jesus after the Resurrection along with all the other righteous souls in Hades.

Moses was able to speak with the transfigured Christ. As a heavenly citizen of centuries he seemed to know Jesus and be on speaking terms with him. So he is neither asleep not distanced from Christ. How would we know he had never been in Gods throne room. Not sure the scriptures are clear here.
 
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Moses was able to speak with the transfigured Christ. As a heavenly citizen of centuries he seemed to know Jesus and be on speaking terms with him. So he is neither asleep not distanced from Christ. How would we know he had never been in Gods throne room. Not sure the scriptures are clear here.
How could Moses go there before Jesus prepared a place for Him? God was in paradise and on His throne. Christ was in paradise and on earth. Christ was born with a glorified soul. St. Thomas Aquinas taught
 
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Moses was able to speak with the transfigured Christ. As a heavenly citizen of centuries he seemed to know Jesus and be on speaking terms with him. So he is neither asleep not distanced from Christ. How would we know he had never been in Gods throne room. Not sure the scriptures are clear here.
Moses having gone up body and soul he is able to use his brain and talk and think , use his eyes. Disembodied souls don't have bodies but there is a consciousness that is proper to the soul. It's not the same consciousness as with a body. But in heaven souls have divine resources. They are face to face with God. They enjoy the Beatific Vision. They percieve earthly life in as much as it is good. I think they are more aware of earthly life than we are.
 
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