Death Penalty...right or wrong?

[Rusticus]

you must think GOD is barbaric.....

No, I don't.

Some of the authors of the OT give that impression of God.
But Jesus told us that it is not so.

 

[armyman_83]

Who shall we have kill the executioneer,k since he also has shedeth man's blood?

Please, we dont have to act like we dont know what a justice system is. Besides the executioneer is carrying out judgement, God carrys out judgement all the time, but I don't see him going to the choping block.

 

[enelya_taralom]

Please, we dont have to act like we dont know what a justice system is. Besides the executioneer is carrying out judgement, God carrys out judgement all the time, but I don't see him going to the choping block.

Exactly.

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no auhtority except that which God has established... For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." - Romans 13:1 - 4

God established the institution of capital punishment (Gen 9:6) and then established people to enforce it (Romans 13:1 -4)


This doesn't mean we shouldn't forgive the wrongdoer though. Look at the robber on the cross, Jesus forgave him, but that forgiveness did not include an exclusion from crucifixion.


I can definitley understand an opposition to the death penlity though. Up until I had these verses pointed out to me a month and a half ago, I was very much against it aswell. However, as I said in another post of mine, "I have now come to accept that capital punishment does have its place, but I am not convicted about it as I was in my opposition of it. I think if I were, my heart would/could be in the wrong place, rejoicing in the fact that it's necessary, when though it has its place, ideally we should never need it because no one would murder, and thus I have no conviction / joy in its enforcement. It in some cases will be God's command, and that's that."

 

[Try]

This is, interestingly enough, probably the only 'life' issue where I'm comfortable giving an absolute answer and telling everyone to agree with me.



In our society the death penalty is wrong for four reasons:

• It’s clear that we can never be certain that someone is actually guilty. 117 people have been exonerated and freed from death row. Many more have been executed under doubtful circumstances. This is in fact what convicted me against the death penalty. This time last year a series of shocking revelations about DNA evidence freeing people on the Texas death row at the 11th hour made me realize the full force of the passage “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
• It’s applied unevenly- people of color are much more likely to be sentenced to death then whites.
• Jesus told us not to execute people. No-one but God has the right to judge another human as being worthy of death. John 7:53-8:11.

The OT Laws do not bear on modern situations because the Jews only tried people caught in the act (even then, Jesus would have us forgive and pardon even those). Romans 13:1 reads “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.” This means that there should be no violent revolt against the Romans. It does not mean that we in a democracy should not work for a more just and merciful society.



A good resource is the Death Penalty Information Center. You can find stuff about the exonerations there, though I read about the innocence cases that turned me against capital punishment in the Star Telegram.

 

[jasperbound]

It’s clear that we can never be certain that someone is actually guilty. 117 people have been exonerated and freed from death row. Many more have been executed under doubtful circumstances. This is in fact what convicted me against the death penalty. This time last year a series of shocking revelations about DNA evidence freeing people on the Texas death row at the 11th hour made me realize the full force of the passage “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

This is why we should improve the process done to convict somebody (as this argument is more an argument against the process that wrongfully convicts people), because it'd also be terrible to send somebody to prison for a few years only to find out that they are innocent and let them out with just a little bit of a cash and an quick "My bad!" by the government.

It’s applied unevenly- people of color are much more likely to be sentenced to death then whites.

This is an argument for ending the discrimination taking place, but not an argument against the death penalty. After all, aren't there places with a disproportionate number of minorities in prison? That doesn't mean we should get rid of prisons, even though discrimination is occurring, right?

Jesus told us not to execute people. No-one but God has the right to judge another human as being worthy of death. John 7:53-8:11.

According to Holding: "Because the Romans held the rule of life and death and the right to implement CP, this was a challenge to Jesus to commit sedition. If he had said, 'Go ahead,' he would have been arrested. By itself this offers no injunction against CP, since it was not really an option; moreover, Jesus' reply indicates, 'If we are to enforce it this time, some of you are next.'"

It does not mean that we in a democracy should not work for a more just and merciful society.

Agreed, although not even Christians agree on what is a just and merciful society.

 

[Rusticus]

It still comes down to this question: what do we want to achieve?

Revenge or deterrent?

Remember the old saying: an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure...

The real question is this: what is the best way to prevent crimes from being committed in the first place?

 

[HelloToAll]

I've always believed that the death penalty was ok because the government has been placed in authority by God to punish those who disobey the law...but I've heard many Christians saying it is wrong because everyone is God's creation and no one has the right to kill anyone no matter what. What are your thoughts on Romans 13:1-7? Does that passage justify the death penalty? I'd like to hear people's thoughts. Thanks!

~Erica~

The death penalty is 100% justified, and there's nothing barbaric about it. Those murderers who get sent to death row ask for it. Anybody who kills innocent people must be killed like the parasites they truly are!

 

[Rusticus]

The death penalty is 100% justified, and there's nothing barbaric about it. Those murderers who get sent to death row ask for it. Anybody who kills innocent people must be killed like the parasites they truly are!

So, would it be correct to assume that you see the death penalty as society's "revenge"?

Would it not be better to find a way to "deter" would-be criminals in the first place?

I am sure the people who get murdered would prefer prevention to punishment....because it would mean that they would still be alive.

 

[Linus]

To err is human - in other words, if we are to have capitol punishment, innocent people will be put death, in U.S especially black men. There is no 100% guarantee that no innocent lives will be waisted and I can't see no justification of risking killing innocent people instead of giving them life without a chance of parole.

 

[Simonline]

OK, here's something to think about...

Firstly, the death penalty for murder was instigated by God, not Man, for the sole reason that all human life (without exception) is sacrosanct. This is because every human being has been made in the image of God. Therefore, any unlawful taking of a human life is tantamount to a direct attack upon God and he will not, under any circumstances, tolerate such an attack. The punishment is mandatory death by lawful execution. Not up for discussion or debate (Gen.9:6).

This was instigated through Noah and his family (all 7 of them) immediately after the flood, at the 'restart' of the entire human race. Therefore this ruling applies to the entire human race, throughout the earth and is certainly not restricted to any national theocracy (i.e. Israel). The law was instigated by God as a curb on unbridalled human passions and applies to any and all people who commit murder whilst living according to the flesh, irrespective of whether they are 'believers' or 'unbelievers', since God does not show favouritism.

Secondly, if God is Omniscient then by definition he is fully aware of every single person throughout the whole of human history (including 'history' that hasn't happened yet) who would [will] be executed by those in authority for the crime of murder including those executed in error and those unlawfully executed by corrupt officials. However, this did not cause God to abandon instituting the death penalty for murder. Obviously, God considers murder to be so serious a crime that executing the majority of murderers ligitimately is more important than commuting the death penalty for fear of making a mistake.

Thirdly, the death penalty is not meant to be a 'deterent' it is meant to be a punishment, therefore whether it works as a deterent or not is absolutely irrelevant. This is a red-herring argument by those who oppose the death penalty.

Forthly, The teaching of the Messiah that believers should 'turn the other cheek' etc. is teaching for believers who are part of the Church and relates to how believers should respond to those who wrong them.

It does not apply in situations involving criminals who violate the law. Such a policy would very quickly reduce society to abject chaos where criminals can pillage and plunder with impunity on the 'turning the other cheek' principle?! It IS NOT teaching for unbelievers (since they are utterly incapable of living by the Spirit) and certainly not teaching for those whom God has placed in authority in order to govern and regulate unbelievers, at least, not in their capacity as those who uphold and administer the Law (Rom.13:1-7; 1Pet.2:13-14).

The important thing to note is that God has not given the sword to Peter just as he has not given the keys of the kingdom to Caesar. The Church and the State have two entirely separate and distinct roles to fulfill which relate to two entirely separate and distinct groups of people. The two should never be confused. We must not try and run the State as if it were the Church and we must not try and run the Church as if it were the State since God holds both institutions to different standards.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

The death penalty is 100% justified, and there's nothing barbaric about it. Those murderers who get sent to death row ask for it. Anybody who kills innocent people must be killed like the parasites they truly are!

You have an awful lot to learn about the love of God my friend.

All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned everyone to his own way and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all (Isa.53.6)

Simonline.

 

[HelloToAll]

So, would it be correct to assume that you see the death penalty as society's "revenge"?

Actually I don't see capitol punishment as society's "revenge," but as justification, and self defense.

Would it not be better to find a way to "deter" would-be criminals in the first place?

Yes, it would be better to deter would-be criminals before the commit their crime, but the criminals who have already murdered innocent people must be executed.

I am sure the people who get murdered would prefer prevention to punishment....because it would mean that they would still be alive.

As I said in my previous post, the criminals who get sentenced to death row, chose to be in the position they currently are in.

BTW, Happy Birthday.

 

[HelloToAll]

You have an awful lot to learn about the love of God my friend.

Yes, we all must learn about the love of God. Like I said before, Capitol Punishment is self defense against people whose goals are to harm the innocent.

 

[tulc]

As I said in my previous post, the criminals who get sentenced to death row, chose to be in the position they currently are in.

...except of course for those innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. How many of them have to die before it's wrong?
tulc(hopefully not many)

 

[Linus]

...except of course for those innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. How many of them have to die before it's wrong?
tulc(hopefully not many)

So true indeed...innocent peoples lifes are at stake her...

 

[Simonline]

Yes, we all must learn about the love of God. Like I said before, Capitol Punishment is self defense against people whose goals are to harm the innocent.

Since when has God needed to defend himself? Capital punishment has absolutely nothing to do with self defense. It is solely about justice with respect to the Creator's unlawful deprivation of one of his beloved subjects.

Capital punishment is the mandatory punishment for the capital crime of murdering a human being who is made in the image of God - the ultimate form of a direct attack upon God which is absolutely guaranteed to fail, every single time, without exception.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

...except of course for those innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. How many of them have to die before it's wrong?
tulc(hopefully not many)

Whilst I agree that the practise of capital punishment has on many occassions been abused by those in power this does not alter the justness of the practise in principle.

In situations where those in power have abused their positions and authority and in doing so have either murdered innocent people or aided and abetted the murder of innocent people (irrespective of whether it was by means of state apparatus or not) then those people will be made to give an account on the Day of Judgment and will then receive their just recompense for their sin. God will not be mocked, whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.

Before we say, 'well that's OK for justice but what about the life of the person who was murdered?' the answer to that is that it is extremely unfortunate that an innocent person has been unlawfully murdered but we cannot pre-programme our destiny in this life. Furthermore, in the overall scheme of things, the fact that the person has died at the hands of an executioner instead of 'peacefully in his sleep' or by any other cause, whether by accident, fair or foul means, really doesn't make that much difference, since every person has their 'allocated' number of days, irrespective of how or when those days come to an end. This is all part of the great mystery of life and why it is always fundamentally important that we repent of our sins and be reconciled with God whilst we still have the chance, for, apart from Hezekiah and Simeon, no man is promised 'tomorrow' (Lk.13:1-9).

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

So true indeed...innocent peoples lifes [lives] are at stake her...

No they're not, since the Bible has declared everyone guilty (Rom.3:9-20)

The Biblical doctrine of Imputation and Impartation


The Scriptures teach us that death was introduced to the human race through Adam as a result of his sin (Rom.5:12-20) and God with regard to sin and condemnation has used this to condemn the entire human race by association [Adam's guilt is imputed to our 'moral accounts' and his fallen and rebellious nature is imparted to each and every one of us (though, on judgement day, we will only be held accountable for our own specific sin, not Adam's as well.)]. Just as in competition the individual competitor or team either attain victories (or suffer losses) on behalf of the community that they represent (be it either a school, a village, a town, a county, a state, a country or the entire human race) so in this case, Adam, as our representative, suffered the loss of being in that righteous relationship with God, because of his sin, the consequences of which, in turn, have been passed on to us.

This might, at first sight, seem incredibly cruel and unfair of God to do this but his reason for doing this is so that he can use exactly the same principle with regard to salvation in respect of Christ [In order for God to use the principle with respect to redemptive salvation he has also to use exactly the same principle with respect to moral guilt ('sin') and condemnation, otherwise God is violating his just nature and God cannot do that]. This means that salvation can actually be attained solely by Christ, but its benefits can be credited/imparted to us as the community (in this case 'the human race') that Christ represents.

If God did not use this principle then each one of us would individually, have to attain salvation for ourselves, which, for a sinner to try and do in the face of an absolutely holy and righteous God is absolutely impossible (and even that is the biggest understatement ever in the entire history of the human race!)

In other words, God has to condemn the entire human race ['in Adam'] in order that he might then be able to redeem them ['in Christ'] (Rom.11:32). This is what Paul is talking about in his letter to the Romans (Rom.5:12-20) and his first letter to the Corinthians (1Cor.15:20-23).

God could not leave the entire human race in a state of perpetual 'innocence' since it was necessary for us to 'grow up' morally speaking so that we would truly be 'in the image of God' in the fullest and most mature sense. For this reason humanity has to go through the experience of sin and all it's consequences (this is what human history is really all about - the whole of human history has a salvific [salvific = relating to salvation] dimension to it) in order to then experience the saving grace of God which is the means by which we attain spiritual maturity and take our place along side God as 'heirs with God and joint heirs with Christ' (Rom.8:17). How would we ever know of God's grace, mercy redemption etc. unless we had first experienced sin?

Therefore, the idea of an 'innocent person' even an 'innocent baby' is a complete myth....thank God!

Simonline.

 

[Linus]

No they're not, since the Bible has declared everyone guilty (Rom.3:9-20)

Pardon self for the poor spelling above.

Well, by that token, why not kill each and everyone of us. I agree that we are all sinners and deserves death but that is for God to execute, not us mortals.

You can't justify killing a man innocent to the crime he was convicted for by saying, we are all sinners...

 

[Simonline]

everyone in my family believes in capital punishment except for me

if we were to take an eye for an eye everyone would be blind..
all sins are the same, we as people are the ones who judge which are worse than the others...in God's eyes, they are equal.

ye who hath not sinned cast the first stone

OK Nashboo, let's try some joined up thinking shall we?

The principle of 'an eye for an eye' is an expression of God's love and concern for his people in that he imposes limitations on the amount of retribution that an aggrieved 'victim' may exact from the guilty 'criminal'. Whilst, under the law, a person who is wronged is entitled to retribution against the person who wronged them, God has declared that the amount of retribution that the wronged person may exact from the guilty party must NEVER exceed the original offence. This is because God is concerned with justice for all (including the criminal) and not just for the initial victims. No person forfeits their inalienable human rights as a human being made in the image of God, simply because they have comitted a crime (no matter how heinous the crime). This is what differentiates true legal justice from tribal, communal or societal revenge. Society must NEVER be allowed to vent it's sinful and unbridalled passions upon anyone. All authority exists to administer and uphold the law and to prevent human society from degenerating into total anarchy and chaos...the law of the jungle.

Thus we see that 'an eye for an eye' has absolutely nothing to do with a 'demand' for retribution (as everyone mistakenly believes) but rather is a limitation on the amount of retribution that can be exacted from the criminal...an expression of God's love and care for all men, irrespective of whether they uphold the law or not since 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' (Rom.3:23).

Whilst it is true that all sin is equal what do you think the consequences of applying the 'let him who is without sin cast the first stone' principle accross the board with all criminals would be on all human society? It would be a green light for the unbridalled human (sinful) nature which would very quickly result in the complete breakdown of all human society and the universal 'law of the jungle' holding sway. The only reason that this would possibly come about would be because of incredibly nieve Christians who do not understand the relationship between Church and State trying to run the world as if it were the Church when the world is not the Church. Only a fool would nievely expect an unregenerate unbeliever to be able to live as a regenerate believer (i.e by the Spirit of God).

As believers we have to be willing to acknowledge that the majority of people are not believers and some people are never going to become believers. Therefore such people need to be 'managed' in a totally different way to those who are believers since, as unbelievers, they are utterly incapable of living as believers and therefore their unregenerate sinful natures must not be allowed to bring about anarchy, social chaos or the law of the jungle.

Food for thought?

Simonline.