Death Penalty...right or wrong?

[Sam Gamgee]

Here's a great fact-sheet about the death penalty in the US.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf

 

[tulc]

Where does it say it's for the church age?..........

Uhmmm I thought He WAS describing the Church? "This is how it was (Old Testament), and now this is how I want you to be (New Testament)" otherwise:
It's ok to stay angry with your brother
Looking at women with lust is ok
you can divorce your wife for anything
making oaths isn't a big deal
revenge is just fine
don't love your enemies
don't pray for those who persecute you etc.
All those are covered in that same section of scripture are they also only for the millenium? Just wondering.
tulc(got to run, Mrs.tulc needs a ride!)

 

[enelya_taralom]

I was just recently in a really good debate about the death penalty (here if anyone is interested http://www.christianforums.com/t1921028). Basically the person I was debating with brought it to my attention that with Genesis 9:4 and 9:6, in addition to verses such as Romans 13: 1-7 that God has/ did institute a place for capital punishment and people to enforce it in our society.

I really struggled with this because I had never given much thought to the justice, establishments, institutions etc of God. I was very much against the death penalty and concentrated solely on God's mercy and grace, which I have now come to realize, is not absent in the enforcement of such a practice. The robber on the cross next to Jesus was granted forgiveness, but that did not come with an exclusion of being crucified.

Anyway, I came to realize that ultimately it was really more the behavior of people such as the ones you can find "celebrating" the enforcement of such a practise (gathering outside courthouses with signs such as "Fryday" etc) that worries/ frightens me and made me oppose the death penalty. The act of killing is nothing to rejoice in, regardless of whether or not it sanctioned, justified etc. Capital punishment has its place in society but it should be enforced within the spirit of Christ's law as demonstrated in Matthew 8:7, forgiveness, love, humility etc and not within the spirit of hate etc. I also don’t think that, just because God instated it, that it’s something we should immediately jump to and apply in every case. There is such a thing as context, and as demonstrated with Cain, and Paul there are times when it’s not what God will command.

It frightens me, though, that people rejoice in killing, and that some have demonstrated or implied getting a sense of joy out of the enforcement of capital punishment. God may have instated capital punishment but He still "causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45 as translated in the NIV). He also sent us a Messiah that commands us to not judge, forgive, "pray for those who persecute you" and love our enemies ("If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" Matthew 5:46-47).

Jesus got the chance to live out those words when, "nailed to a cross, he prayed for his persecutors (Luke 23:34). The example of Stephen, the first Christian martyr (Acts 7:60), shows that some of Jesus' followers also put his command into practice- a fact that surely impressed one persecutor named Saul" - highlight in the NIV Student bible.

I think that if a family member of mine was murdered I would not press for the enforcement of capital punishment nor would I want a loved one of mine to do the same if I were to be murdered, as I personally don't think I could enter into that in the proper spirit. Basically, I think that the above verses sum up things well, but I wrote this in my journal a few weeks ago, and think that it may offer some insight, at least to how I view and have come to understand capital punishment.

"I have now come to accept that capital punishment does have its place, but I am not convicted about it as I was in my opposition of it. I think if I were, my heart would/could be in the wrong place, rejoicing in the fact that it's necessary, when though it has its place, ideally we should never need it because no one would murder, and thus I have no conviction / joy in its enforcement. It in some cases will be God's command, and that's that."

 

[Linus]

How can we as humans instate capitol punishment? We are not flawless like God in our judgements, if we are to have capitol punishment, then we are bound to execute innocent people. To say otherweise would be utter ignorance.

Capitol punishment isn't wrong per se but there are not one single human judicial system that would guarantee that no innocent people would be killed.

 

[jasperbound]

How can we as humans instate capitol punishment? We are not flawless like God in our judgements, if we are to have capitol punishment, then we are bound to execute innocent people. To say otherweise would be utter ignorance.

Capitol punishment isn't wrong per se but there are not one single human judicial system that would guarantee that no innocent people would be killed.

The same can be said for incarceration. After all, people are wrongfully incarcerated, and some of these innocent people might even die in prison! And even if they are found to be released decades later with little compensation, would that make up for everything they suffered in prison?
My problem with anti-capital punishment people is that they completely ignore this even though the death penalty isn't the only way innocent people wrongfully suffer.
The problem isn't the punishment.

 

[enelya_taralom]

How can we as humans instate capitol punishment? We are not flawless like God in our judgements, if we are to have capitol punishment, then we are bound to execute innocent people.

Yes, our judgement is falliable, which is why authorities should take very serious precaution when passing any sort of judgement. It would certainly be a tragedy for an innocent's life to be ended at the hand of capital punishment, but it would also be the same for an innocent who spends any large portion of their life in prison. As someone already said in this thread, the problem isn't so much with the punishment but more with the process leading up to punishment. The intresting thing too, is that despite the fact that innocents would die at the hand of capital punishment, God still institued it, "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" - Gen 9:6, and the people to enforce it, Romans 13:1 - 4. True this was established for the gulity, but at the same time God, being onimpensent would have known that man's fallibilty would enforce this upon innocents, such as John the Baptist, or, yes, even God's own son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Linus]

Yes, our judgement is falliable, which is why authorities should take very serious precaution when passing any sort of judgement. It would certainly be a tragedy for an innocent's life to be ended at the hand of capital punishment, but it would also be the same for an innocent who spends any large portion of their life in prison. As someone already said in this thread, the problem isn't so much with the punishment but more with the process leading up to punishment. The intresting thing too, is that despite the fact that innocents would die at the hand of capital punishment, God still institued it, "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" - Gen 9:6, and the people to enforce it, Romans 13:1 - 4. True this was established for the gulity, but at the same time God, being onimpensent would have known that man's fallibilty would enforce this upon innocents, such as John the Baptist, or, yes, even God's own son, Jesus Christ.

That may be but there are many that have been executed that were innocent, there are many on the death row today that are probably not guilty. Are these lifes expandable, is it worth it to risk one innocent man being killed instead of putting they behind bars for the rest of their lifes?

 

[linssue55]

Uhmmm I thought He WAS describing the Church? "This is how it was (Old Testament), and now this is how I want you to be (New Testament)" otherwise:
It's ok to stay angry with your brother
Looking at women with lust is ok
you can divorce your wife for anything
making oaths isn't a big deal
revenge is just fine
don't love your enemies
don't pray for those who persecute you etc.
All those are covered in that same section of scripture are they also only for the millenium? Just wondering.
tulc(got to run, Mrs.tulc needs a ride!)

Then HE can show me where it say's specificaly, and only for the church age, don't you think?...... "Turn the other cheek", just in case HE forgot. Then I will show where it is only for the millenium.

 

[Rev. Smith]

The same can be said for incarceration. After all, people are wrongfully incarcerated, and some of these innocent people might even die in prison! And even if they are found to be released decades later with little compensation, would that make up for everything they suffered in prison?
My problem with anti-capital punishment people is that they completely ignore this even though the death penalty isn't the only way innocent people wrongfully suffer.
The problem isn't the punishment.

It is wrong that the innocent are incercerated, and there are many good people around the country working on that as well. The unique feature of killing convicts is that it can't be undone. As terrable as it is to keep a man wrongly in prison, when the wrong is proven we can let him go, and try to compensate him. When we kill him, there is nothing we can do but say "oops".

I do agree that the problem lies in our system, by making it into a contest instead of a search for truth we get too many prosecutors and cops who are more concerned with their "box score" then they are with justice, and the system encourages this. Wrongful prosecution is a crime with no penalty. Mostly these cases are shrugged off and the defendant told he should have had a better lawyer.

On paper our system looks good, but in practice too many of the procedures that are supposed to be safeguards have become rubber stamps.

Until we can reform the system I don't think we need to get to the morality of the death penalty, I think we need to admit that were simply not competant to administer it.

 

[Newsboy1900]

It is wrong that the innocent are incercerated, and there are many good people around the country working on that as well. The unique feature of killing convicts is that it can't be undone. As terrable as it is to keep a man wrongly in prison, when the wrong is proven we can let him go, and try to compensate him. When we kill him, there is nothing we can do but say "oops".

I do agree that the problem lies in our system, by making it into a contest instead of a search for truth we get too many prosecutors and cops who are more concerned with their "box score" then they are with justice, and the system encourages this. Wrongful prosecution is a crime with no penalty. Mostly these cases are shrugged off and the defendant told he should have had a better lawyer.

On paper our system looks good, but in practice too many of the procedures that are supposed to be safeguards have become rubber stamps.

Until we can reform the system I don't think we need to get to the morality of the death penalty, I think we need to admit that were simply not competant to administer it.

I,,,, AGREEE :d

 

[tulc]

The same can be said for incarceration. After all, people are wrongfully incarcerated, and some of these innocent people might even die in prison! And even if they are found to be released decades later with little compensation, would that make up for everything they suffered in prison?
My problem with anti-capital punishment people is that they completely ignore this even though the death penalty isn't the only way innocent people wrongfully suffer.
The problem isn't the punishment.

...what the Rev said!
tulc(which is what I was going to say but he said it better!)

 

[tulc]

Then HE can show me where it say's specificaly, and only for the church age, don't you think?...... "Turn the other cheek", just in case HE forgot.

Wasn't that what He was doing?

Then I will show where it is only for the millenium.

Cool! I look forward to it!
tulc(always looking for more ideas!)

 

[linssue55]

Wasn't that what He was doing?

No, he hasn't shown me the verse that says "turn the other cheek" is for the church age, that is what I am waiting for?

 

[tulc]

No, he hasn't shown me the verse that says "turn the other cheek" is for the church age, that is what I am waiting for?

Oh. How do you decide which Scripture's are for now and which are for some other time? Also maybe you can explain which parts of the Sermon on the Mount are for us and which for later?

Then I will show where it is only for the millenium.

still looking!
tulc(pouring some coffee, having a great night!)

 

[Rusticus]

One of the questions seldom asked is: What do we want to achieve?

Do we want to PUNISH, or do we want to PREVENT the crime from being committed in the first place?

There is no doubt that killing someone as punishment is much more about giving society the feeling of "revenge" than actually punishing the crimimal.

It is glaringly obvious that the death penalty is not working to prevent crimes from being committed. (Because if it did, there would be no need to execute anyone.)

Surely it makes much more sense to try to prevent crimes from being committed in the first place than to punish the criminal afterwards. All we have to do is to come up with suitable punishments that really deter people from committing criminal acts.

 

[Rev. Smith]

No, he hasn't shown me the verse that says "turn the other cheek" is for the church age, that is what I am waiting for?

I'll never show you that, becasue I believe that Jesus is God, and that all that he taught was truth, in any age, in any time, for any purpose.

When he told me that I must learn to forgo anger and hate, recrimination and revenge I believed him, and I try (oh, how I try).

So please, go ahead and show me how the chruch, or any human authority can negate the teachings of God Incarnate. tulc and I are both at a loss as to how you got there....

 

[jasperbound]

I'll never show you that, becasue I believe that Jesus is God, and that all that he taught was truth, in any age, in any time, for any purpose.

I too believe that Jesus is God, and that all He taught was truth, in any age, in any time, for any purpose. However, that said, I place more favor on Scripture than I do the Gnostic-like revelations of people.

 

[Rev. Smith]

I too believe that Jesus is God, and that all He taught was truth, in any age, in any time, for any purpose. However, that said, I place more favor on Scripture than I do the Gnostic-like revelations of people.

tulc and I are just waiting for linssue55 to explain to us why "turn the other cheek" (and all of the rest of Jesus' commands to forbear and forgive) don't apply because this is the "church age"

 

[Harlan Norris]

I've always believed that the death penalty was ok because the government has been placed in authority by God to punish those who disobey the law...but I've heard many Christians saying it is wrong because everyone is God's creation and no one has the right to kill anyone no matter what. What are your thoughts on Romans 13:1-7? Does that passage justify the death penalty? I'd like to hear people's thoughts. Thanks!

~Erica~

Well, this is how I see it. The death penalty is God ordained. That being said, I believe that as a Christian, I am not able to judge anothers life.I was actually chosen to sit on a capitol case. When asked if I had any reservations about the death penalty, I said yes, religious. What religion? the judge asked. Christian, I said. He asked me to explain. I said that my faith forbids me to judge the life of another.The short story is that I was dismissed. However I broke no law. In colorado refusing to hand down a death sentence for religious reasons is legal. If on the other hand I had no choice but to sit on the jury, because the law didn't allow for any reason involving religion. I would have done so. So, one might ask how do you get a jury in a capitol case? No worrys mate, plenty are willing to judge.

 

[lismore]

How can we as humans instate capitol punishment? We are not flawless like God in our judgements, if we are to have capitol punishment, then we are bound to execute innocent people. To say otherweise would be utter ignorance.

Capitol punishment isn't wrong per se but there are not one single human judicial system that would guarantee that no innocent people would be killed.

Thats true friend

If the wrong person is executed you cant bring that person back.