Death before the Fall of Man

[GodSaves]

Theistic evolutionists would like to debate against this so here is the link.
Here are the rules:

1. Let your posts be in love, knowing full well that Jesus Christ is standing and watching.
2. Use only the Bible, not science nor anything else, for your posts. Post scriptural references that back each thing you say.
3. If you are interpreting the Bible, rather than just posting a verse, then explain briefly why you interpreted it that way, again using the Bible as your backing, not science.

Edit: You may use the Greek and Hebrew Bible for better clarification of passages.

Here is the link.
http://www.christianforums.com/t877639

Remember the second commandment of Christ.
God Bless

 

[rmwilliamsll]

define death?
then support that definition from Scripture.

AFAIK the Bible does not define death.

 

[GodSaves]

Genesis 2
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Die
In hebrew = Muwth (mooth) means -> to die, kill, have one executed.

This is the death theistic evolutionists claim is spiritual and not physical. Hebrew does not indicate spiritual death.

 

[GodSaves]

Luke 1

76And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
78because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace."
80And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.


Notice those verses I highlighted. So theistic evolutionsists believe that God created physical death as part of the original creation, before the fall of man.

Notice how God is coming to deliver those from the shadow of death. Why deliver us from something He created, even before the fall, that was meant to be for us in a perfect world?

Lets look at the Greek, in case there are some questions.

Death as used in the above verse means:

Thanatos (than'-at-os) Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #2288
1. death of the body
2. metaph., the loss of life which alone is worthy of name
3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries of sin, as well as physical death as the loss of life concecrated to God and blessed in Him on earth, to be followed by the wretchedness in hell.

There is your definition of death by the Gospel of Luke. As you can see by looking at the Word of God and the meaning of the word in Greek you can get a clear idea that God has mercy to come and save us from death, by the resurrection.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Luke 1

76And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
78because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace."
80And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.


Notice those verses I highlighted. So theistic evolutionsists believe that God created physical death as part of the original creation, before the fall of man.

Notice how God is coming to deliver those from the shadow of death. Why deliver us from something He created, even before the fall, that was meant to be for us in a perfect world?

Lets look at the Greek, in case there are some questions.

Death as used in the above verse means:

Thanatos (than'-at-os) Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #2288
1. death of the body
2. metaph., the loss of life which alone is worthy of name
3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries of sin, as well as physical death as the loss of life concecrated to God and blessed in Him on earth, to be followed by the wretchedness in hell.

There is your definition of death by the Gospel of Luke. As you can see by looking at the Word of God and the meaning of the word in Greek you can get a clear idea that God has mercy to come and save us from death, by the resurrection.

there is no definition of death in those verses.
the strong's definitions are not from Scripture.

define death, using Scripture.

as in modern scientific definitions:

death is the cessation of brain activity.
death is the heart not beating.
death at the cellular level is cessation of metabolism- no mitochronial pH gradient.

etc.

before you enter into the differentiation of:
spiritual vs physical death, you must define death.
by your own criteria only Scripture is acceptable.
not Strong's numbers.
not man's words.

 

[GodSaves]

there is no definition of death in those verses.
the strong's definitions are not from Scripture.

define death, using Scripture.

as in modern scientific definitions:etc.

death is the cessation of brain activity.
death is the heart not beating.
death at the cellular level is cessation of metabolism- no mitochronial pH gradient.


before you enter into the differentiation of:
spiritual vs physical death, you must define death.
by your own criteria only Scripture is acceptable.
not Strong's numbers.
not man's words.

LoL. This seems typical. My fault, I thought one would understand that it is ok to use the Greek and Hebrew Bible. I gave you the reference to strongs so that you can look it up for yourself, easily.

I defined death using scripture, the Greek Bible, and the Hebrew Bible. I guess you rather pick on the smallest of things to elude the actual case I presented.

I can present a thread on how to study the Bible, if needed.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i believe you will find that the Scriptures do not define death.
But rather, what is customary for the Hebrew mindset, operate with a series of analogies. Death is like sleeping, etc.

So i am interested in how you find a definition for something that has proven as elusive as death.

for starters see: http://www.bible.ca/d-death=separation.htm
where it argues almost completely by analogy. however it is a nice site to begin with. but nowhere in this site is there a definition per se of death derived from the very words of Scripture.

---
post posting edit

your posting did not define death.
nor does the passage from Luke.
the strong's definition of thantos is derived from one person's interpretation of a wide variety of usages of the word.

a definition is in the form of:

death is -a description or a formula for determining is something is dead or alive-

for instance:
give the first responder to a traffic accident your definition, can he/she separate the living from the dead with your definition?

why is it that medical science has perhaps 3 or 4 definitions of death? it is not a simple thing.

 

[Amalthea]

GodSaves he has a point with you here. You provided no Scriptural definition of death.

 

[herev]

[Bible]Genesis 2:17[/Bible]
Since they didn't die when they ate the fruit, it had to be in reference to something other than physical death, otherwise Adam and Eve would have thought God a liar (and I could understand that!)

 

[GodSaves]

Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Since they didn't die when they ate the fruit, it had to be in reference to something other than physical death, otherwise Adam and Eve would have thought God a liar (and I could understand that!)

So, they ate of the tree of knowledge and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. They ate of it once. So, same can be said of the tree of life. Eating of it once would have kept man in perfect righteousness and sinless, forever. It was man's first choice, given by God.

Did Adam and Eve at the moment experience the second death? We know what the second death is, it is being thrown into the lake of fire. No one experiences this death until judgement day.

So explain to me from a theistic evolutionists stand point how God created death to part of creation before the fall. Explain where in the Bible it says death, pain, suffering is of God, and not sin. Physical death insues pain and suffering, not only for the one experiencing it but for the ones who know and love the one experiencing it.

When theistic evolutionists claim that God created physical death as part of the creation before the fall of man, they are saying that God is at fault for all the pain and suffering of the world. Since, God did created physical death as part of creation before the fall.

Adam and Eve, notice God made them clothes. God was still with them after they ate of the tree of knowledge, they were not apart from God.

Genesis 3
20 Adam [1] named his wife Eve, [2] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Williams, if you do not want to discuss this topic, then don't. Death is described in the Bible, by the use of the Greek and Hebrew word. You just don't want to look at their meanings. You rather stick strickly to the english word. Are you not aware that the Hebrew and Greek languages are much more expressive. Their words have more depth and meaning than the english languages words.

The word death and die are the in the Hebrew Bible of the OT. The word death is in the Greek Bible of the NT. Each of these means much more than simple death, but rather a kind of death. Look them up, read the original languages of the Bible.

I think you are more intent to argue for the english translations than the original Hebrew and Greek. I think you rather over look that the Hebrew and Greek are needed to fully understand the meaning of passages, by looking at the full meanings of the language used.

So if you don't want to actually study the Bible, then please feel free not to participate in this discussion.

God Bless

 

[GodSaves]

Oh, Williams, thanks for the link. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/ Did you notice that this site is against evolution. =0

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Williams, if you do not want to discuss this topic, then don't. Death is described in the Bible, by the use of the Greek and Hebrew word. You just don't want to look at their meanings. You rather stick strickly to the english word. Are you not aware that the Hebrew and Greek languages are much more expressive. Their words have more depth and meaning than the english languages words.

The word death and die are the in the Hebrew Bible of the OT. The word death is in the Greek Bible of the NT. Each of these means much more than simple death, but rather a kind of death. Look them up, read the original languages of the Bible.

I think you are more intent to argue for the english translations than the original Hebrew and Greek. I think you rather over look that the Hebrew and Greek are needed to fully understand the meaning of passages, by looking at the full meanings of the language used.

So if you don't want to actually study the Bible, then please feel free not to participate in this discussion.

at this point in my studies i don't feel the need to drag out 20 year old textbooks and renew my acquaintance with either Hebrew or Greek. I don't see the need to complexify the discussion with another level of interpretation, this time with the original languages of Scripture. I don't think this level of discussion warrants such, but it that is how you wish to proceed, then i can find my texts ok.

rather i would like to re-ask my fundamental questions which has not been answered.

What is the Scriptural definition of death?

You use terms like: 'spiritual death' and 'physical death' without offering me a definition from Scripture as to how the ancient Hebrew in the OT or/and how the early church defined or conceived of death.

But rather you offer a very high order interpretation of Strong's as to the meaning of the word 'thanatos'. i am sure that you do not believe that the original manuscripts came with Strong's numbers, likewise i would imagine that you do not believe that the Scriptures came with a dictionary, nor a table of contents, nor atlas complete with sketches of Jerusalem etc. Those are, how did someone on this forum express it 'the words of man' therefore inferior to the very words of Scripture.

So again, i ask, what is the Scriptural definition of death?

don't offer me Strong's, offer me a verse or two, in the form of:
death is -xxxxx-.
Not analogies in the form of:
death is like -sleep-
for i have already explained that that is the way Scripture talks about death, not in definitions but in metaphors, analogies, motif, smilies etc. And even then, in the link i gave before, these require a great deal of interpretive analysis to yield a workable definition of death.

How can we proceed to discuss what the curse means, without understanding what death means? even before we attempt to put it into the complex of ancient hebraic history and culture to understand the meaning of Gen2-3.

Again, i have one point to make. how do the Scriptures define death?
you contend in this message that it is described in Scripture?
descriptions are analogies, as in 'death is like sleep', if you need to go this route to define dead then you must gather the analogies and find the common thread that God desires you to take home as the definition of death. I havent seen an attempt to do that either in this posting. Just the statement:

So explain to me from a theistic evolutionists stand point how God created death to part of creation before the fall. Explain where in the Bible it says death, pain, suffering is of God, and not sin. Physical death insues pain and suffering, not only for the one experiencing it but for the ones who know and love the one experiencing it.

which seems to assume some definition of death, not in evidence however, so i certainly can't see if i share that definition. Furthermore you offer 'physical death' as a subset of death without offering what this might mean. Despite the fact that i have twice now made illusion directly to modern biological sciences marked inability to come up with a single comprehension definition of death.

and that is before i even wonder about what 'simple death' is, as i have never seen this usage. or the term 'second death'

btw

Hebrew and Greek languages are much more expressive

i would be interested in you backing up such a statement as it flies in the face of modern linguistics theory. for instance, in my hebrew class i was made aware of the fact that the word in Hebrew for arm can be from wrist to near shoulder thus necessitating latin or english words in Hebrew medical conversation to make a more precise pinpoint of 'where the pain is'. as an aside English in fact has the largest vocabulary of any known language, by far. but that is off topic.

So let me see.
i have asked at least 3 times for your Scriptural definition of death.
yet you don't offer one for our mutual conversation but rather add a series of qualifiers: second, simple, physical, spiritual, as if in doing so we know what you mean. well i for one do not, and would look forward to learning yours.

.....

post posting edit:
crossed in the mail.

Oh, Williams, thanks for the link. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/ Did you notice that this site is against evolution. =0

it is an interesting site, i've spent quite a few hours poking around there, when i get a google hit on them, they are always worth the look. some off the wall, some rather interesting oddities- they are extremely anti-reformed which is how i originally found the site, so i don't (usually) post links to them. but their essay on death is the best i found in the 30 minutes or so i took to find a link to refer to- above.

 

[GodSaves]

So, basically you don't believe in understanding the meaning of the words that are written in the Bible, correct?

#,r'a'h tea.w ~Iy;m'V;h tea ~yih{l/a a'r'B tyivaer.B​

This passage above, you would not be interesting in learning the meaning of the words?

From the hebrew Bible I have given you the word die in hebrew and the meanings that that hebrew word holds. And yet you seem to say this is not from the Bible but from strongs. The definition of the word is from strongs, but the word itself is in the Bible with the meaning. I am quite confused that even if I pull out a passage from the Bible you will try and debate the words used saying they are not of the Bible, when in fact they are in the Bible.

I guess this is the attempt to quiet/side step the arguement. Clever.

Maybe if you take a look at the link I posted in the OP, you will see that it talks about physical death being created by God and used before the fall of man. Then maybe, just maybe, you can present scriptures that back up this belief held by theistic evolutionists.

At the fall of man, man was seperated from God. I think all sides can agree, then again maybe not. Man did not that day die spiritually, hence the lake of fire, nor did man die physically that day. I believe man did start dying physically that day, and man had to make the choice to believe, follow and accept God/Jesus to be saved from the second death.

The problem I see is that theistic evolutionists insist that God created physical death, suffering, and pain as part of creation before the fall of man. So back up these beliefs with scripture.

 

[herev]

So, they ate of the tree of knowledge and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. They ate of it once. So, same can be said of the tree of life. Eating of it once would have kept man in perfect righteousness and sinless, forever.

Bold above my emphasis--that is an assumption and not my opinion.

Did Adam and Eve at the moment experience the second death? We know what the second death is, it is being thrown into the lake of fire. No one experiences this death until judgement day.

I see no reason not to believe that the second death is in the same realm as the first--The first spiritual death was to separate man from his face to face daily walking with God--without shame, without guilt. The second death makes it permanent, with no ability to communicate or commune with God, which was obviously not the intent of the first.

So explain to me from a theistic evolutionists stand point how God created death to part of creation before the fall. Explain where in the Bible it says death, pain, suffering is of God, and not sin. Physical death insues pain and suffering, not only for the one experiencing it but for the ones who know and love the one experiencing it.

Where there is physical life--there is physical death. There couldn't have been a garden had there not been death--nutrients are needed to feed the living things. Adam and Eve ate something, didn't they--to eat of a living thing brings death to at least part of it.
But as I have said before, I believe that the first humans capable of understanding the concept of God were Adam and Eve. They were plucked up and put in the Garden, where it was NOT God's will that they suffer or die (physically or spiritually). They had the Tree of Life which would keep them alive forever, but they were banned from the Garden because of their sin. So, one could say that being banned led to their physical death (IMHO), but since it clearly (think "plainly") says "on that day" or "when" then I beleive the death referred to is not physical--they didn't die then.

When theistic evolutionists claim that God created physical death as part of the creation before the fall of man, they are saying that God is at fault for all the pain and suffering of the world.

Not necessarily, see my thoughts above--the Garden was a respite from what was created on the outside. And it must be added that just because we see death as suffering does not mean God does. We can't look at everything--or even anything--concerning God and limit Him to human understanding.

Adam and Eve, notice God made them clothes. God was still with them after they ate of the tree of knowledge, they were not apart from God.

Genesis 3
20 Adam [1] named his wife Eve, [2] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Yes, hence the difference between the first and the second death

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I don't know how long to wait for a Biblical definition of death.
For i don't believe that the Bible actually defines death anywhere, rather it offers us a series of metaphors in the form of:

Bible verses that use sleep, as a metaphor for Death:

1. "And many of those who
2. sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2 "Our friend Lazarus has fallen
3. asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples therefore said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. Then Jesus therefore said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Jn 11:11-14 Ps 90:5 Thou hast swept them away like a flood, they fall
4. asleep Mt 9:24 He began to say, "the girl has not died, but is
5. asleep." And they began laughing at Him. Mt 27:52 tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen
6. asleep were raised; Mk 5:39; Lk 8:52 The child has not died, but is
7. asleep Ac 7:60 "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, Stephen fell
8. asleep. Ac 13:36 "For David ... fell
9. asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay 1 Co 15:6,18,20,51 some have fallen
10. asleep ... those who are asleep, we shall not all sleep, 1 Th 4:13-15 those who are
11. asleep ... have fallen asleep in Jesus 2 Pe 3:4 ever since the fathers fell
asleep

from: http://www.bible.ca/d-death=sleep.htm

but this is NOT a definition, it is a metaphor, an analogy.
The task of the exegete is to see the commonalities between sleep and death, then build from those a working definition of death.

The problem with YECist discussions of:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

is that they don't have a firm working definition of death in their mind. Hence the need to continually qualify the term with a series of adjectives to make distinctions that are necessary. We've seen that here with: first, second, physical, spiritual, simple etc. Why is this needed unless there appears to be a number of different kinds of death in the Scriptures?

If you would spent some time looking at the various passages on death in the Scriptures you would find that Scripture treats the death of plants (and possibly puts insects into this class rather than animals, although i am not real certain of this) differently then it treats the death of animals and treats the death of human beings differently than that of animals.

Furthermore there seems to be a multiple number of contradictory ways to talk about the death of people. This is the source of the need for these further descriptive adjectives, pointed out above.

Since no one else has offered a definition i suppose i must myself:

for animals death is the cession of breathing and movement.
for human beings death is two fold:
spiritual death is separation from God.
physical death is the separation of body and soul with the subsequent decay of the body.

I think that one of the YECist tactics is to fold into their definition of death, additional things like suffering. but i am unable to confirm this as i don't know the YEC definition of death, and i can only see what they write and assume a definition underneath those writings. I see no evidence in Scripture that the definition of death includes suffering for either plants or animals. However from the dialog on the cross i realize that suffering is a serious part of human death, not just the separation of body and soul but the anticipation of that awful event in the mind of human beings.

But this is not at the level of Scripture, but rather a higher level of theorizing very much dependent upon systematic theology. That is the reason i continue to insist on a Biblical definition of death, for whatever definition offered is not the very verses of Scripture, for they don't exist. but a systematic theology dependent theory about what Scripture means when it speaks about death. but i suppose that point is missed by the YECist who assume that their definition of death=suffering is the only possible Scriptural one, without actually having to deal with presenting one.

o'well. that is the best i can do to hold up my end of the conversation when the YECist will not offer a verse or set of verses to define death. I for myself do not because i dont believe that they exist, but that the definition of death is a high order systematic theological term not a strictly Biblical theological term. But it does show the difficulty if not the impossibility of keeping any conversation on the subject at the strictly low word level as so many YEC insist, but rather operates on the level of a mixture of words and 'theories of man'.

....
post posting edit.
death is given a lot of metaphors, sleep is just the dominant one, certainly not the only one.

it is interesting that human death is often compared to plant death. According to Scripture a seed dies when planted in the ground and is reborn a new plant, likewise the human body when planted in the ground, dead, is reborn into the next world.......but these are complex metaphors very very dependent upon high order theology for their interpretation.

 

[Remus]

I have just a few of questions if I may.

But as I have said before, I believe that the first humans capable of understanding the concept of God were Adam and Eve. They were plucked up and put in the Garden, where it was NOT God's will that they suffer or die (physically or spiritually). They had the Tree of Life which would keep them alive forever, but they were banned from the Garden because of their sin.

Do you think they had sinned before being put into the garden? How long do you think they lived in the garden?

So, one could say that being banned led to their physical death (IMHO), but since it clearly (think "plainly") says "on that day" or "when" then I beleive the death referred to is not physical--they didn't die then.

Why would you take this "day" as a literal day and not the previous ones?

Thanks

 

[GodSaves]

Genesis 2 -- KJV
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2 -- NIV
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 2 -- AMP
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Genesis 2 -- NLT
17except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

Genesis 2 -- NKJV
17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Genesis 2 -- NASB
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Not sure where anyone has gotten the idea that on that day they will die. I have provided many different translations for you to look at. If the actually day is mentioned it is said "in that day." In that day sounds a bit more metaphorical, i believe meaning in those times, after the sin.

 

[herev]

I have just a few of questions if I may.

Sure

Do you think they had sinned before being put into the garden?

No, and again, my view is not a majority view here among TE's. It is my own theology. But I believe they were moved into the garden as they entered the "age of accountability." When they became aware of God and therefore Sin, God removed them from their environment and placed them in the Garden with Him that He had prepared for them.

How long do you think they lived in the garden?

unknown

Why would you take this "day" as a literal day and not the previous ones?

Excellent question!!! The short of it is I don't. I don't suspect that it was a literal day, but I find it intriguing that the creationist seem to think that it is not literally "in that day" while at the same time requiring a belief in the other days as literal 24 hour periods. My point is to question how this is possibly consistent in their beliefs. For me, the point is that the scriptures suggest an immediate result or at least very quickly after the action of choosing to not follow God, yet Adam physically lived for a long time after that. I suggest that the death would be immediate only if it is a spritual death.

Thanks

No problem!

 

[herev]

Not sure where anyone has gotten the idea that on that day they will die. I have provided many different translations for you to look at. If the actually day is mentioned it is said "in that day." In that day sounds a bit more metaphorical, i believe meaning in those times, after the sin.

Metaphorical? Did you really say you think it was metaphorical?

But there is no reason to suggest that the literal interpretation of it would mean in those times--none. So is it literal or not? If it is literal, then it cannot have been physical death, as they didn't die on that day, in that day, when, or then. Adam lived a long, long time--as did Eve.

 

[Vance]

Ah, man, Herev, you beat me to it.

Consistency, Godsaves! You can't be arguing for strict literalism on the one hand and then start arguing metaphorical language when it suits your needs. My gosh, next you will be saying that Song of Solomon is a metaphor for Christ and the Church!