Dealing with the negativity of being a "sinner"?

GrayAngel

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Some have theorized that the writing in the sand were the sins of the accusers. It might be that He was just taking His time to think. It is a little odd that the Bible doesn't explain this. But maybe John didn't even know.

You know, they say that if an eyewitness testimony has too many details, it casts doubt on its truthfulness.
 
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OliverC

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Some have theorized that the writing in the sand were the sins of the accusers. It might be that He was just taking His time to think. It is a little odd that the Bible doesn't explain this. But maybe John didn't even know.

You know, they say that if an eyewitness testimony has too many details, it casts doubt on its truthfulness.

I wonder if Jesus was mimicking something related to how the legal system worked or how the Jews would mark guilty people. Curious topic :)
 
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OliverC

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Quesiton:

Are we following Jesus and Paul's teaching as one?
I am reading Corinthians and I feel like Paul adds laws and guidance which Jesus didn't explicitly explain. I also feel Paul adds restrictions and guidance because he is establishing a church or society, rather than teaching Christ's words.

Do we need to follow Paul's teaching by the letter or are we fit to pick and choose?
 
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GrayAngel

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Paul was commissioned by Christ on the road to Domascus. He was called to be the apostle for the non-jewish converts. And Peter, the leader of the first century church, affirmed Paul's teachings, referring to them as scripture. His teachings are not optional.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Quesiton:

Are we following Jesus and Paul's teaching as one?
I am reading Corinthians and I feel like Paul adds laws and guidance which Jesus didn't explicitly explain. I also feel Paul adds restrictions and guidance because he is establishing a church or society, rather than teaching Christ's words.

Do we need to follow Paul's teaching by the letter or are we fit to pick and choose?

It's important to understand the context. Paul is writing letters to communities dealing with the problems and situations going on in those communities. As such, it can be easy to misinterpret Paul.

Imagine that I have a close friend, and I write him a letter concerning all sorts of things going on in his life, offering advice. Now, him and I have all sorts of extra-letter knowledge about these situations; but if you were to read that letter as an outsider, there's a whole lot of missing information. Thus to try and make sense of my letter to my friend, you may need to find out more information about me and my friend--and even then are likely going to have a highly imperfect record to work with.

That's what happens when we read Paul's letter. We are effectively peeking in on two other party's correspondence. This complicates things as we try to make sense of it. Some things will seem more clear than others, some things are going to make no sense at all, and other things are going to be in a very hazy middle and then we try to do the best with it that we can.

I often see Paul less as setting down universally applicable commandments as putting forth practical solutions to community struggles. For example, when Paul instructs wives to be quiet, he is not saying all women everywhere are to be quiet little church mice without a voice in the Church (in act, this would make no sense given everything else he says throughout his letters); rather he seems to be dealing with a very specific problem, most likely a few Chatty Kathy's who were being disruptive, Paul says they should stop being disruptive and if they want to ask questions they should wait until later.

This reading makes more sense when we consider that most likely early Christian worship followed standard Jewish customs, such as having men and women seated separately. If this is the case then we're not simply talking about a wife whispering to her husband in the back of the church, but interrupting everything going on to talk to her husband across the whole church. The problem wasn't women talking, the problem was a specific one involving women who were persistently making things difficult in that local community, and the instruction was specifically for that community with this specific problem. Not a universal commandment given for all time.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Marahuta

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Quesiton:

Are we following Jesus and Paul's teaching as one?
I am reading Corinthians and I feel like Paul adds laws and guidance which Jesus didn't explicitly explain. I also feel Paul adds restrictions and guidance because he is establishing a church or society, rather than teaching Christ's words.

Do we need to follow Paul's teaching by the letter or are we fit to pick and choose?

Sorry if I don't explain properly...I'm in class >:)To understand Paul's writing better, one must first understand why Paul is writing. The majority of people make the mistake of thinking they are the same as the Gospels. But if you look closer, they are not.Paul is writting in letters. He is either sending the first letter, or responding to letters sent to him. This is why they can be so different to the gospels. While the gospels mention the laws, Paul's writing explains the laws. However one should also be careful to not mix theological explanations and solutions to various problems within the community he is writting to.teacher's coming.God bless,
 
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OliverC

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It's important to understand the context. Paul is writing letters to communities dealing with the problems and situations going on in those communities. As such, it can be easy to misinterpret Paul.

Imagine that I have a close friend, and I write him a letter concerning all sorts of things going on in his life, offering advice. Now, him and I have all sorts of extra-letter knowledge about these situations; but if you were to read that letter as an outsider, there's a whole lot of missing information. Thus to try and make sense of my letter to my friend, you may need to find out more information about me and my friend--and even then are likely going to have a highly imperfect record to work with.

That's what happens when we read Paul's letter. We are effectively peeking in on two other party's correspondence. This complicates things as we try to make sense of it. Some things will seem more clear than others, some things are going to make no sense at all, and other things are going to be in a very hazy middle and then we try to do the best with it that we can.

I often see Paul less as setting down universally applicable commandments as putting forth practical solutions to community struggles. For example, when Paul instructs wives to be quiet, he is not saying all women everywhere are to be quiet little church mice without a voice in the Church (in act, this would make no sense given everything else he says throughout his letters); rather he seems to be dealing with a very specific problem, most likely a few Chatty Kathy's who were being disruptive, Paul says they should stop being disruptive and if they want to ask questions they should wait until later.

This reading makes more sense when we consider that most likely early Christian worship followed standard Jewish customs, such as having men and women seated separately. If this is the case then we're not simply talking about a wife whispering to her husband in the back of the church, but interrupting everything going on to talk to her husband across the whole church. The problem wasn't women talking, the problem was a specific one involving women who were persistently making things difficult in that local community, and the instruction was specifically for that community with this specific problem. Not a universal commandment given for all time.

-CryptoLutheran
Hi ViaCrucis
This is a coincidence as this is exactly the verse I have just read before logging on. Women should not cut their hair, but keep it covered, Women should not talk in Church. Personally I was a bit taken aback by this because I have seen women talking and crossing over isles to greet people in my local Catholic Church. I am not judging them, because I didn't know this until today, but I am struggling to understand how Paul says one thing and the Church and Christians here do another thing? Should I understand that there is some flexibility and why is that flexibility permitted.

It also says homosexuality is a sin. However I don't want to sit in judgement on fellow beings. I want to leave judgement to God only. So how to deal with this?

Just to be very clear, I am not trying to be disruptive with this line of questioning, these are my first impressions from reading the NT for the first time an I am just not clear on where to position this teaching as I see it for the first time and compare it to society today (I am not saying the NT is wrong). :)

Thank you!

Sorry if I don't explain properly...I'm in class >:)To understand Paul's writing better, one must first understand why Paul is writing. The majority of people make the mistake of thinking they are the same as the Gospels. But if you look closer, they are not.Paul is writting in letters. He is either sending the first letter, or responding to letters sent to him. This is why they can be so different to the gospels. While the gospels mention the laws, Paul's writing explains the laws. However one should also be careful to not mix theological explanations and solutions to various problems within the community he is writting to.teacher's coming.God bless,
Hi Marahuta
You explained well, this is a follow on question, as I am tending to put all my questions even if unrelated in this thread as people are kindly giving me guidance as I go. I should start a new thread really. :blush:

Thanks for this explanation. I have covered some thoughts above in this post related to this as I am not sure how to sepeate them, as you wisely suggest, at this point. :)
 
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Marahuta

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Hi ViaCrucis

It also says homosexuality is a sin. However I don't want to sit in judgement on fellow beings. I want to leave judgement to God only. So how to deal with this?

Just to be very clear, I am not trying to be disruptive with this line of questioning, these are my first impressions from reading the NT for the first time an I am just not clear on where to position this teaching as I see it for the first time and compare it to society today (I am not saying the NT is wrong). :)

Thank you!
Homosexuality is a sin according to Christianity, but this doesn't mean you are automatically condemned to hell for being homosexual. God will judge you based on your entire life, what you did and why you did it.

I myself do not critisise others for their sins, for I also sin. I might not be homosexual, but that doesn't mean I am one sin purer than the homosexuals. According to my life record, I could easily be worse.
It is always best to leave judgement to God :)

Hi Marahuta
You explained well, this is a follow on question, as I am tending to put all my questions even if unrelated in this thread as people are kindly giving me guidance as I go. I should start a new thread really. :blush:

Thanks for this explanation. I have covered some thoughts above in this post related to this as I am not sure how to sepeate them, as you wisely suggest, at this point. :)

Yes, I find it difficult too sometimes. What I try to do is look about what else he says in his letters, and look for what he says in other letters on the same subject. It also helps if you try and google about possible problems within the community he is talking to (possible minor cults/religions within the area that might have been recorded). Most of the times you won't find anything, but it's always good to look for it could clear up the verses under question.

I will be looking forward to other threads and questions of yours :)
God bless,
 
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Marahuta

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Yes, they are tricky.
Here's a hint...When you want to understand something that is not of this world, trying to limit it with this world's logic will only make it harder for you.
I used to try and think of things with a limited mind and it was very confusing. As soon as I opened my mind it all cleared up. Don't confuse this with imagination or ignoring things. Think of it like this...The avarage American citizen cannot judge with their own criteria of their world the Massai tribes in Africa.

Get my point? ;)

God bless,
 
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Marahuta

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That is good advice, Marahuta.
I would like to see these teachings of Paul as advice and not laws, so to speak. Maybe I am being a bit hard on myself in respect to them. Perhaps I can put them "on pause" and come back to them later with a clearer view.

I think that would be a good idea. What ever helps you better :)

God bless,
 
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food4thought

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Quesiton:

Are we following Jesus and Paul's teaching as one?
I am reading Corinthians and I feel like Paul adds laws and guidance which Jesus didn't explicitly explain. I also feel Paul adds restrictions and guidance because he is establishing a church or society, rather than teaching Christ's words.

Do we need to follow Paul's teaching by the letter or are we fit to pick and choose?

Paul wrote to the Colossians "The letter Kills, it is the Spirit that brings life". What ViaCrusis wrote brings some light to the subject, I think. I think the safest letter to take straighforwardly is Romans, as Paul had little or no information on their church and was writing to speak the gospel to them clearly. 1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus are the most personal letters, and are therefore the most difficult to interpret in these areas.

Homosexual acts are without question sinful, but that doesn't make homosexuals any different than you and me before God... we are all sinners struggling with our own sins (pride, lust, selfishness, etc). One way that I have come to grips with this regarding homosexuals and the church is to ask: Do they accept homosexual activity is sinful? Are they repentant and trying to fight against their lust? This is the same criteria I would ask of any other sin, to determine whether they are walking with the Lord or not. I DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE'S SALVATION!!!! That is between them and God, but I can use discernment to see if someone is walking in the Spirit. Hope this helps you on this very delicate and controversial issue.

Going back a few pages you had a conversation about the general nature of sin... what is sin? I would suggest that we not get too caught up trying to define what is and isn't sin if the Bible doesn't clearly call it sin. What we need to do is cultivate our relationship with the Holy Spirit and seek to be in obedience to His guidance whenever we receive it. The other road leads to self condemnation for every perceived wrong or self righteousness... either way it leads to self! God wants to lead us to HIMself :)

God bless;
Mike
 
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OliverC

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Hi Mike
You make a strong point, really it is about our relationship with God at the end of the day. Everything else is conduct, as we cannot (or should not) judge others and leave that to God. So I don't see any need to be concerned too much, even if I were to stand next to an acknowledged homosexual in church, who am I to say his sin is worse than another's, it isn't about my judgement (whoso ever has not sinned cast the first stone).

I am coming to terms with the message Paul gives in Corinthians is different to the message in Romans and to Jesus (John's gospel). I don't really know where this is leading me, perhaps towards liberal Christianity.
 
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food4thought

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Hi Mike
You make a strong point, really it is about our relationship with God at the end of the day. Everything else is conduct, as we cannot (or should not) judge others and leave that to God. So I don't see any need to be concerned too much, even if I were to stand next to an acknowledged homosexual in church, who am I to say his sin is worse than another's, it isn't about my judgement (whoso ever has not sinned cast the first stone).

exactly. We can use discernment, though. We can even judge another's actions as right or wrong according to the Bible, but we condemn no one.

I am coming to terms with the message Paul gives in Corinthians is different to the message in Romans and to Jesus (John's gospel). I don't really know where this is leading me, perhaps towards liberal Christianity.

How so? I hold the view that the Bible is internally consistent with itself, and have very few problems with that view. What has you thinking the message is so different?
 
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Marahuta

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Hi Mike
I am coming to terms with the message Paul gives in Corinthians is different to the message in Romans and to Jesus (John's gospel). I don't really know where this is leading me, perhaps towards liberal Christianity.

Could you please post the passages in question to make it easier for us ? Otherwise we'll have to go through the whole letters to find them XD

God bless.
 
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OliverC

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Sorry my friends, didn't mean to leave you both guessing!

Here is an example of some of the verses which are causing me doubt:

Paul confirms that the Jesus has freed us from the Law:

Romans 7.4 - 6
4 That is how it is with you, my friends. You are now part of the body of Christ and are dead to the power of the Law. You are free to belong to Christ, who was raised to life so that we could serve God. 5 When we thought only of ourselves, the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die. 6 But the Law no longer rules over us. We are like dead people, and it cannot have any power over us. Now we can serve God in a new way by obeying his Spirit, and not in the old way by obeying the written Law.

Paul introduces the Law again:

1 Cortinthians 6.9 - 10
Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual will share in God’s kingdom.

Jesus replied:
John 3.18

18 No one who has faith in God’s Son will be condemned.

John replied:
27 John replied: No one can do anything unless God in heaven allows it.
36 Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life.
 
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Marahuta

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Sorry my friends, didn't mean to leave you both guessing!

Here is an example of some of the verses which are causing me doubt:

Paul confirms that the Jesus has freed us from the Law:

Romans 7.4 - 6
4 That is how it is with you, my friends. You are now part of the body of Christ and are dead to the power of the Law. You are free to belong to Christ, who was raised to life so that we could serve God. 5 When we thought only of ourselves, the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die. 6 But the Law no longer rules over us. We are like dead people, and it cannot have any power over us. Now we can serve God in a new way by obeying his Spirit, and not in the old way by obeying the written Law.

Paul introduces the Law again:

1 Cortinthians 6.9 - 10
Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual will share in God’s kingdom.

There are 2 different laws mentioned here. The old and new law. Romans, speaks of the old law. The Jewish law was much stricter because you couldn't be saved through faith. This happened after Christ. In the old times, redemtion and salvation came through the law, so the people were slaves of the law. With the new law we are saved through Christ.

The difference between old and new law are the minor sins. While in the old we had to be very careful for there was nobody to redeme us. In the new, the law focuses with the spiritual, and the major sins.

Corinthians doesn;t speak of the same law as in Romans. In both case evil doers are condemned.

I have a feeling I screwed up the explanation abit :/
tell me if you have any questions on what I just said.

God bless,
 
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food4thought

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Sorry my friends, didn't mean to leave you both guessing!

Here is an example of some of the verses which are causing me doubt:

Paul confirms that the Jesus has freed us from the Law:

Romans 7.4 - 6
4 That is how it is with you, my friends. You are now part of the body of Christ and are dead to the power of the Law. You are free to belong to Christ, who was raised to life so that we could serve God. 5 When we thought only of ourselves, the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die. 6 But the Law no longer rules over us. We are like dead people, and it cannot have any power over us. Now we can serve God in a new way by obeying his Spirit, and not in the old way by obeying the written Law.

Paul introduces the Law again:

1 Cortinthians 6.9 - 10
Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual will share in God’s kingdom.

We are set free from the Law of Moses as our standard for establishing righteousness, as well as all the Law's curses that result from sin, yet sin is still sin. People who claim to be Christian and continually walk in things the New Testament clearly define as sin are in serious jeopardy of losing their walk in the Spirit at the very least (you can see how certain things become such controversial and delicate topics, eh?). The gist of Paul's rebuke was to believers who felt that their salvation meant they could do whatever they wanted and everything was ok... NOT SO. We are called to die to ourselves and follow after the Holy Spirit of God, and I can tell you from experience that the Holy Spirit is quite persistent in pointing out to me my habitual sin and calling me to repent. God is still holy and righteous, and He calls us to "Be Holy, for I am Holy". Holy means set apart and sacred.

I have to go for now, but I'll be back when I can. If my explanation isn't clear enough, let me know and I'll try to clear it up a bit.

May the Lord bless you as you seek Him;

Mike
 
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