Dealing with the negativity of being a "sinner"?

[OliverC]

There are 2 different laws mentioned here. The old and new law. Romans, speaks of the old law. The Jewish law was much stricter because you couldn't be saved through faith. This happened after Christ. In the old times, redemption and salvation came through the law, so the people were slaves of the law. With the new law we are saved through Christ.

The difference between old and new law are the minor sins. While in the old we had to be very careful for there was nobody to redeem us. In the new, the law focuses with the spiritual, and the major sins.

Corinthians doesn't speak of the same law as in Romans. In both case evil doers are condemned.

I have a feeling I screwed up the explanation abit :/
tell me if you have any questions on what I just said.

God bless,

Hi Marahuta
Thanks. I had a feeling that my confusion hangs on the word "Law" but I am not 100% clear about these laws. Your explanation helps, it means I need to be more clear about the Law of the Jews first and foremost. I am not sure how I can be clear on that law, do you know where I should look?

We are set free from the Law of Moses as our standard for establishing righteousness, as well as all the Law's curses that result from sin, yet sin is still sin. People who claim to be Christian and continually walk in things the New Testament clearly define as sin are in serious jeopardy of losing their walk in the Spirit at the very least (you can see how certain things become such controversial and delicate topics, eh?). The gist of Paul's rebuke was to believers who felt that their salvation meant they could do whatever they wanted and everything was ok... NOT SO. We are called to die to ourselves and follow after the Holy Spirit of God, and I can tell you from experience that the Holy Spirit is quite persistent in pointing out to me my habitual sin and calling me to repent. God is still holy and righteous, and He calls us to "Be Holy, for I am Holy". Holy means set apart and sacred.

Hi Mike
I agree. Sin is sin. My understanding at present is as follows:

Jesus removes the original sin, or the burden and wipes the slab clean in a way through baptism. Jesus also removes the old law (as per quotes).

Sin still exists in the world (not too sure why, I think it is something to do with Satan or the flesh?)

Anyway we can overcome our sins, as you say through guidance of the Holy Spirit (Thank God!) and repentance through prayer. I can relate to your testimony, I also know when I sin.

My hang-up is homosexuality. Which is a bit absurb because I am not homosexual and have no vested interest. What is bothering me is that I don't think homosexuals have a choice, Paul thinks they did? Jesus teaches love and I have added a couple of verses in my post above to show this (sorry to have not done it in the first reply, it was taking me some time to reply).

If either of you see anything to add or correct in my understanding I would appreciate your comments.

 

[Marahuta]

Hi Marahuta
Thanks. I had a feeling that my confusion hangs on the word "Law" but I am not 100% clear about these laws. Your explanation helps, it means I need to be more clear about the Law of the Jews first and foremost. I am not sure how I can be clear on that law, do you know where I should look?

I am only going to answer to the quote about me so I don't confuse things up.

The old law is basically of no interest to us anymore, fo Christ is the law now. The old law is the Jewish law which can be found troughout the Old testament, but I suggest you google for it or you will get confused.

Salvation in the old times was through the law, which meant there was no one to take upon himself the possible mistakes you made, therefore the law had to be strict. That is why Paul characterized the old men as 'slaves of the law. That law was made to restrict the flesh so that through actions you will receive grace.

Now, Christ takes upon him our sins which means that, while there are still restrictions of sin in the law, we are not slaves of the law. Now we are saved by faith, and acts are evidence of that faith. This does not mean we are free to sin. We must still strive for good, those who on purpose do evil (as mentioned in Corinthians) do not have faith.

Hope I cleared things up.
Unforunately it's bed time, cya in...10 hours? maybe.

May God's grace rain upon you,

 

[OliverC]

Hi Marahuta
Thank you, sleep well, its lunch time here.
I am happy for anyone to address any part of my posts.

I am stuck. I don't know what to think. I am going to have to accept this to be a Christian, correct?

 

[food4thought]

Hi Mike
I agree. Sin is sin. My understanding at present is as follows:

Jesus removes the original sin, or the burden and wipes the slab clean in a way through baptism. Jesus also removes the old law (as per quotes).

Jesus indeed wipes away original sin. He also wipes away our guilt for every sin we ever do... past, present, AND future. He wiped away all our sins the moment we accepted Him by faith and repented (IE, turned from our selfish sinful life and to Him). If I am not mistaken, it is only a Catholic view that He only wiped away original sin... protestants believe He wiped them ALL away.

Baptism is another area where Christians have different views on what it actually accomplishes... my belief is that water baptism is an outward testimony of an inward change. In other words, baptism doesn't wash you clean, it is symbolic of the cleansing work that Christ did in your heart through faith. We do it because Christ commanded it.

Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses with His perfectly obedient life and His substitutional death on our behalf. We are now free from all the condemnation of the Law of Moses, yet we are called to holiness and to follow the dictates of the New Testament. Mainly this means abstaining from some obvious evil (murder, hate, lies, sexual immorality, etc.), loving God, specially loving our brothers and sisters in Chirst, and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

Sin still exists in the world (not too sure why, I think it is something to do with Satan or the flesh?)

Both really. Sin remains because we still have our old sin natures in us even though we have been given a new nature through faith in Christ. We still desire sin at times. Also, the devil is a real entity and has 1/3 of the angels following him... they create quite a bit of chaos as well. Of course, there are still several billion unsaved people on earth, following their own hearts/desires. So yes, sin is definitely alive and well on earth and will be until the end.

Anyway we can overcome our sins, as you say through guidance of the Holy Spirit (Thank God!) and repentance through prayer. I can relate to your testimony, I also know when I sin.

yes. we all have a conscience that tells us when we do wrong (if we don't squash it the way some have done). The holy Spirit is above and beyond our conscience, leading us to do and not do according to His will. Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between the two, but believe me there are times when there is absolutely no question lol

My hang-up is homosexuality. Which is a bit absurb because I am not homosexual and have no vested interest. What is bothering me is that I don't think homosexuals have a choice, Paul thinks they did? Jesus teaches love and I have added a couple of verses in my post above to show this (sorry to have not done it in the first reply, it was taking me some time to reply).

If either of you see anything to add or correct in my understanding I would appreciate your comments.

This is such a hotly debated topic in the world and in the church that I hesitate to continue speaking on it here. Suffice it to say that God loves homosexuals the same as He loves you and me, but sin is sin and God will weed sin out of our lives if we cooperate with His Holy Spirit. If we aren't cooperating, something is very wrong with our spiritual lives. We all have sinfull desires, and on that we have no choice. We all have a choice on whether to give in to those desires and fulfill them.

 

[food4thought]

Hi Marahuta
Thank you, sleep well, its lunch time here.
I am happy for anyone to address any part of my posts.

I am stuck. I don't know what to think. I am going to have to accept this to be a Christian, correct?

In order to be a Christian you must accept that Jesus is the Son of God, that He lived a sinless life, that He died on the cross for our sins, that God rose Him from the dead, and that He is returning in the future to judge the world.

Everything else is secondary. Believe that, repent from your selfish/sinfull life, ask the Lord Jesus into your heart, and confess that publicly and you will be saved (Romans 10:8-11). The rest can be worked out by you and the Holy Spirit through your spiritual growth/sanctification. I would just suggest that you take the Bible as your authority over your own preferences and over what any man or woman says to be so. Trust God, not yourself or any other man/woman.

 

[OliverC]

Thanks Mike
I didn't know some of those details, so it is helpful to me

I like your approach. Thank you.

 

[Marahuta]

In order to be a Christian you must accept that Jesus is the Son of God, that He lived a sinless life, that He died on the cross for our sins, that God rose Him from the dead, and that He is returning in the future to judge the world.

Everything else is secondary. Believe that, repent from your selfish/sinfull life, ask the Lord Jesus into your heart, and confess that publicly and you will be saved (Romans 10:8-11). The rest can be worked out by you and the Holy Spirit through your spiritual growth/sanctification. I would just suggest that you take the Bible as your authority over your own preferences and over what any man or woman says to be so. Trust God, not yourself or any other man/woman.

Up and shinning again. Making mum miserable as usual C:<
hope you had a happy lunch

I double what Mike said.

God bless,

 

[OliverC]

Good morning Marahuta.
I am sure your mum still loves you.
I haven't been connected all day :o

Yes, sounds words from Mike.

 

[Marahuta]

Good morning Marahuta.
I am sure your mum still loves you.
I haven't been connected all day :o

Yes, sounds words from Mike.

Aw, she odes, but I just tease her a lot :3
I won't be on again for quite a long time. We'll be out all day.

I am afraid that while I am good at explaining some things, I am bad at explaining others X3 But...what can we do

Have a nice day,
God bless,

 

[OliverC]

Marahuta
Your answers are all good

I have a question for you or who ever comes across this:

Is the soul eternal or can it die somehow?
Is it born when our body is born or is it somewhere else before our birth?

I am asking in respect to the bible and/or Christian theology.

 

[Marahuta]

Marahuta
Your answers are all good

I have a question for you or who ever comes across this:

Is the soul eternal or can it die somehow?
Is it born when our body is born or is it somewhere else before our birth?

I am asking in respect to the bible and/or Christian theology.

Glad I helped

I am not sure, but I supposeI can try.

A soul does not die. It can only be destroyed if God wills it, nothing else can destroy it.

Souls are created by God when we are born. The soul is basically God's gift of life. It is where all our good and bad deeds are recorded (kinda like a hard drive)

God bless,

 

[food4thought]

Glad I helped

I am not sure, but I supposeI can try.

A soul does not die. It can only be destroyed if God wills it, nothing else can destroy it.

Souls are created by God when we are born. The soul is basically God's gift of life. It is where all our good and bad deeds are recorded (kinda like a hard drive)

God bless,

I would agree with Marahuta here except I believe a soul is created at conception or as soon as the baby is capable of receiving it, my guess would be late in the first trimester at the latest. We really haven't got much Scripture to work with on these questions. Psalm 139 is a good place to start when dealing with preborn life, and there is a verse somewhere early in Jeremiah that speaks of preborn life as well.

As far as the soul dying, I guess that would depend on your definition of death. Some believe all lost souls will eventually be annihilated by God. Other believe that the lost soul lives on in eternity apart from God. The Bible teaches that the lost soul "dies", but is it death as an ending, or death eternal? Many good Christians fall on either side of this debate, and I lean towards eternal punishment because of this verse:

Rev 20:10 NKJV The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented* day and night forever and ever.

*note it says tormented, not tortured... torment is self inflicted, torture is inflicted by another. VERY important distinction to make here.

There are also passages in the gospels where Jesus speaks of the state of the lost, and He seems to imply lasting punishment.

These are deep issues, really. You have a good inquisitive mind, Oliver.

 

[OliverC]

Thanks Mike
My mind is a bit too inquisitive, sometimes I think it would be easier to love Christ and leave the rest to God

But your answer is helpful, I had not noticed the difference between torture and torment. I am of the impression that the real battle is whilst living and not at the time of death.

Heaven, hell and death (as found in the Bible) appear to me to be spiritual more than physical (although they are spoken of as being in the future, after the physical death), I think it is about understanding them as they affect us, right now, whilst embodied in the present moment.

This leads to a change of behaviour, values and of course faith. For me this is really all that matters (how we conduct ourselves whilst living that is), because personally I think it is only God who will decide the fate of each soul, but it is 'me' that will decide my conduct today. This mean fear of hell is poor conduct, it is better to love and provide charity and support. Instead of desire for heaven, again it is better to desire to give.

What do you think?

 

[Marahuta]

Thanks Mike
Heaven, hell and death (as found in the Bible) appear to me to be spiritual more than physical (although they are spoken of as being in the future, after the physical death), I think it is about understanding them as they affect us, right now, whilst embodied in the present moment.

This leads to a change of behaviour, values and of course faith. For me this is really all that matters (how we conduct ourselves whilst living that is), because personally I think it is only God who will decide the fate of each soul, but it is 'me' that will decide my conduct today. This mean fear of hell is poor conduct, it is better to love and provide charity and support. Instead of desire for heaven, again it is better to desire to give.

What do you think?

My personal opinion is that it is better to do something out of love and not out of fear. For example, it is better to not violate the law because you do not want to ruin other people's lives, than to do something good because you are afraid of going to prison.
or
It's best to love God, than fear hell.

God bless,

 

[OliverC]

My personal opinion is that it is better to do something out of love and not out of fear. For example, it is better to not violate the law because you do not want to ruin other people's lives, than to do something good because you are afraid of going to prison.
or
It's best to love God, than fear hell.

God bless,

I think that is wise. It is also pro-active, we are doing something from love. Fear is a paralytic and it stops us from loving or acting. Jesus promoted love and action I hope to conclude that being a Christian implies just that.

 

[food4thought]

Thanks Mike
My mind is a bit too inquisitive, sometimes I think it would be easier to love Christ and leave the rest to God

so true... I also wish I could just stop wondering about certain things and simply trust God, but an inquisitive nature just seems to be part of my mental make-up.

But your answer is helpful, I had not noticed the difference between torture and torment. I am of the impression that the real battle is whilst living and not at the time of death.

Absolutely. How we live our lives here and the decisions we make will affect our eternity.

Heaven, hell and death (as found in the Bible) appear to me to be spiritual more than physical (although they are spoken of as being in the future, after the physical death), I think it is about understanding them as they affect us, right now, whilst embodied in the present moment.

[edit] True... there is a spiritual aspect to the subject of death, but physical death is a reality that is spoken of in the Bible as well. Jesus spoke of spiritual life/death in John's gospel when He said:

Joh 10:28 NIV I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We start eternal life the day we receive Christ, not when we die, though... so your perception that it is the moment we live in that counts is very true. IDK what kind of music you like, but this is a song along these lines by a christian band called Switchfoot that I think you'll enjoy:

Switchfoot Afterlife Lyrics (Track 01) - YouTube

This leads to a change of behaviour, values and of course faith. For me this is really all that matters (how we conduct ourselves whilst living that is), because personally I think it is only God who will decide the fate of each soul, but it is 'me' that will decide my conduct today. This mean fear of hell is poor conduct, it is better to love and provide charity and support. Instead of desire for heaven, again it is better to desire to give.

What do you think?

Desiring a good thing isn't necesarilly bad, but I agree. Living and loving God and others is the key... not fearing punishment.

 

[OliverC]

Hi Mike
The search for truth is a part of us, that is for sure.
I liked the music, it is very appropriate to our topic too. I wonder what Marahuta thinks of it?

I don't know at this stage (because it is a bit early perhaps) how to separate the wheat from the chaff, in respect to Christian theology and practice. There are so many different views. I don't mean the chaff hasn't value (the expression seems to fit what I am trying to get at). I feel it is important to find where to focus the attention so that Christianity works for me/us and the secondary topics don't creep in and disturb the primary importance. Is that something you have fine tuned for your living and found contentment or have you found the search continues?

 

[food4thought]

Hi Mike
The search for truth is a part of us, that is for sure.
I liked the music, it is very appropriate to our topic too. I wonder what Marahuta thinks of it?

I don't know at this stage (because it is a bit early perhaps) how to separate the wheat from the chaff, in respect to Christian theology and practice. There are so many different views. I don't mean the chaff hasn't value (the expression seems to fit what I am trying to get at). I feel it is important to find where to focus the attention so that Christianity works for me/us and the secondary topics don't creep in and disturb the primary importance. Is that something you have fine tuned for your living and found contentment or have you found the search continues?

In a sense, I have the answer: Life is relationship, and love is always right relationship... so love is always the primary thing. Act in love, speak in love, receive in love. Love God, love others, love self (in that order).

Now, as for living that out... lol

 

[OliverC]

In a sense, I have the answer: Life is relationship, and love is always right relationship... so love is always the primary thing. Act in love, speak in love, receive in love. Love God, love others, love self (in that order).

Now, as for living that out... lol

lol, yes, living the love is the challenge and the reward I have come to see that people cannot help but act the way they did or do because of circumstance. I don't know if there is something in Christian theology which describes that idea or is similar?

That outlook has brought me a lot more room to love others whereas before it was easier to look to who to blame or where to focus my anger/revenge. I can even extend that to criminals and crime, it removes my need to judge and lets me leave the final judgement to God; we are all victims, we are all sinners in that way.

Might sound easy, but it takes some practice that's for sure.

 

[food4thought]

lol, yes, living the love is the challenge and the reward I have come to see that people cannot help but act the way they did or do because of circumstance. I don't know if there is something in Christian theology which describes that idea or is similar?

Sounds like what the Bible calls "the natural man"... that is the man apart from God. Our conscience spurs us towards the right path, but gives us no strength to fulfill what is right (IE, love). Love should be the consistent attitude of a Christian walking in the Spirit, but sadly many Christians are not walking in the Spirit but in their own flesh for various reasons... this is a major stumbling block to many people that Christians are doing such a poor job of living out the truth. The important thing to remember is that human failure does not change the truth.

That outlook has brought me a lot more room to love others whereas before it was easier to look to who to blame or where to focus my anger/revenge. I can even extend that to criminals and crime, it removes my need to judge and lets me leave the final judgement to God; we are all victims, we are all sinners in that way.

Might sound easy, but it takes some practice that's for sure.

We all desire justice for everyone else and mercy for us Being able to forgive and love someone who has wronged you is a powerfull thing, and it sets us free to love without bitterness of heart. God will judge everything and everyone in time... sometime the patience for those who truly deserve judgment to get theirs is painfull, but God demands that of us. Many Christians are pacifists for this reason. Personally, I think I agree with the man who said "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Sometimes, fighting for what is right is the only truly loving path because of all the damage that some evil can do.