Dealing with Liberal Christians

redleghunter said:

I think I made that distinction earlier on. And as I said to you some are more pronounced (read challenging) than others.

The formula for "success" I believe is to present the truth in love. There's a reason churches have pastoral care for individuals and family. I don't think anyone here said these matters are easy to deal with. They are not. But we know our Awesome God is above any of our challenges.

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What matter needs to be dealt with when one is intersexed?

Basil the Great said:

The Bible says nothing directly about transgenderism, as no doubt such was not even contemplated 2,000 years ago.

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Not quite true.

DEUTERONOMY.22:5 = 5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

GingerBeer said:

What matter needs to be dealt with when one is intersexed?

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Not seeing where I said such.

FireDragon76 said:

if you throw out every sinner in a church I'm afraid churches would be very empty indeed.

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.
1CORINTHIANS.5: =
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

discipler7 said:

Not quite true.

DEUTERONOMY.22:5 = 5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

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Fair enough, though I suppose if a child waits until a sex change to stat wearing the clothes of the other sex, that they can claim they are not breaking the O.T. admonition. Also, many would claim that Christians are not obligated to honor the O.T. laws, other than the Ten Commandments. Again, everyone, I personally have deep reservations about this entire subject. However, I am not certain that it is fair for us to condemn it on moral grounds. I guess I would say what Pope Francis said on the airplane, early on in his reign, when he replied to the press by saying, "Who am I to judge?", though in his case I thought it was a strange statement..

redleghunter said:

Not seeing where I said such.

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Good that you didn't say such. Was it lurking in the wings waiting to come on stage later when the discussion gets around to an intersexed person choosing a mate and marrying?

HereIStand said:

The desire to change from male to female or vice versa is psychological. A person is drawn to the idea and (sadly) is encouraged by therapists, parents, teachers, and now clergy. Christians need to be forgiving of sex-changes, but opposed to them.

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Not quite true.

ROMANS.1:18-32 says that God knowingly changes a man into a homosexual because the man had knowingly "changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things"(eg idols) = he had rejected God and His Law as evil and oppressive.

redleghunter said:

Good question. Can you link me to the threads where Christians argue in favor of sanctifying those sins?

As far as I have observed not one Christian (save one who advocated pre marital sex and I deabted) on CF or any other site I visit advocated what you listed were not sins.

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Please remember that CF has rules against the kind of posting you describe, except in a couple of forums, and even those have to be done with care. Many other sites have similar rules. Because of CF rules, not many liberals find it worth being active here. The same is true of other sites.

Here's my summary of why many Christians don't think homosexuality and living as a transgender are sins: liberal approaches to homosexuality and transgender. Note that it's in the liberal forum, which is just about the only place such a posting would be legal.

For a site where you'll see many Christians who accept these things, look at Welcome!. The liberal Christian section of Patheos is also useful. However there's one big hole: you'll find almost nowhere constructive dialog between the two sides. I'd like to encourage that, but emotions are high on both sides, and it's hard.

Lybrah said:

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

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1 Corinthians 6:9-10 — Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Leviticus 18:22 — Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

From the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, the scriptural position remains unchanged. The Bible doesn't care about political correctness. According to the scripture, men who behave effeminately or engage in homosexuality are considered an abomination and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

redleghunter said:

Do you see this as open sin within the church which is ignored. Or supposedly ignored because no one openly confesses such?

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We are less focused on the Reformed-style emphasis on transformation through a crisis of despair. The theology of Gerharde Forde seems to be very influential in how pastors approach talking about sin and the Law now days, recognizing that if you have a congregation of elderly people, they already have the Law in some form weighing on them, it's called mortality.

For example, at communion each Sunday we present ourselves before Christ and fellow church members as sinners saved by Grace. In my church we have a moment of personal reflection and prayer confessing the sins we committed to God with a heart and mind of repentance.

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We do something similar at church, but the confession is communal and collective, and it's at the beginning of the service.

Repentance isn't a theme in the same way as other churches. We don't understand it as something we do, but something God does in us. In this way we are alot like many Anglicans or Presbyterians.

Should someone who is in rebellion not recognizing their sin as such partake of the elements?

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The Lutheran response would recognize there is a little rebel in all of us, so all that is required to receive communion is faith. Some of our older liturgies, just as the Anglicans had, contained admonitions before communion that a person should be desiring to live "in love and charity with their neighbor". And that's sort of implied by how we understand faith, to a certain extent.

GingerBeer said:

What matter needs to be dealt with when one is intersexed?

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Thoughts, doctrines, dogmas, teachings, practices, righteousness, peace, joy, the kingdom of Yahweh (God), Yahweh's discipline, training and correction and revelation and chastisement and judgment, and on and on and on.... quite a lot actually.... oh, and forgiveness, grace, mercy, in God's Purpose .... God's Plan... God's Way .... yes, quite a lot of life ....

Lybrah said:

Thanks for your replies. But what happens is that I get treated like I said something really mean and rude, and people tell me how bigoted and hateful I am. Then I feel bad and question, am I wrong? Am I NOT being godly? What if I am wrong, and God would not approve of me thinking this way? I get accused of being crazy and then wonder if I am indeed wrong. What if I am really being hateful?

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How are you approaching them? Are you letting them start the conversation, or are you the one starting a conversation about it?

FireDragon76 said:

We are less focused on the Reformed-style emphasis on transformation through a crisis of despair.

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Huh? That's not a Reformed concept.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Thoughts, doctrines, dogmas, teachings, practices, righteousness, peace, joy, the kingdom of Yahweh (God), Yahweh's discipline, training and correction and revelation and chastisement and judgment, and on and on and on.... quite a lot actually.... oh, and forgiveness, grace, mercy, in God's Purpose .... God's Plan... God's Way .... yes, quite a lot of life ....

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My understanding of intersexed is that it's not so much the "Hey, I want to be something other than what I am" but rather those unfortunate folks that actually, biologically, are a mixture of both or you have a hard time discerning what they actually are. People with malformed genitalia, or genitalia that presents somewhere "in between".

Those, while exceedingly rare, are not things that can be addressed through dogma, righteousness, etc. Those ones really are a matter of "Well, what do you do when the person isn't quite what we think of a male, and isn't quite what we think of as a female?"

DZoolander said:

Those, while exceedingly rare, are not things that can be addressed through dogma, righteousness, etc.

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I don't think I meant they can be addressed through those ,
but those are things that often have to be dealt with ---

GingerBeer said:

needs to be dealt with

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Lybrah said:

Thanks for your replies. But what happens is that I get treated like I said something really mean and rude, and people tell me how bigoted and hateful I am. Then I feel bad and question, am I wrong? Am I NOT being godly? What if I am wrong, and God would not approve of me thinking this way? I get accused of being crazy and then wonder if I am indeed wrong. What if I am really being hateful?

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All good questions to consider.
The answers come after much testing, trials, and purifying as God directs life,
in line with all His Word. (not many people ever have the answers)

hedrick said:

Huh? That's not a Reformed concept.

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I'll take your word for it, I mispoke. We understand large sections of Christianity such as Baptists, Congregationalists, the Puritan tradition, as being Reformed in some way, due to the historical influence of Reformed churches and Calvinism. And those traditions tend to emphasize having a conscious experience of being saved through a crisis and experiencing God's grace.

Do Presbyterians believe in regeneration as a separate event from baptism? We see the Christian life as a journey starting from childhood. Except for more pietist Lutherans, we do not really focus on what other Christians might call being "born again", and even then the pietists see it in slightly different terms.

Lybrah said:

How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

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There's been lots of talk in this thread about the ethics, but I think we need a response to this. Fortunately, salvation doesn't depend upon being right about all issues of theology and ethics. If you're wrong, you're wrong, but Christ still died for you.

In my view the devil's work isn't so much people being wrong, but the animosity within the Christian community. However that's hard to avoid. Conservatives honestly believe that they can't maintain fellowship with those who disagree.

Paul is an interesting example, because he was involved in a number of controversies. The best known, of course, is about circumcision of Gentile Christians. He was pretty hard-core, and in Gal 5:12 was pretty blunt. But to my knowledge he didn't actually recommend throwing the people he disagreed with out of the community.

Another issue was sacrificing meat to idols. There he very clearly tried to promote mutual toleration. Similarly with arguments over the sabbath and other celebrations.

But this is always easier on the liberal side. The conservative side on the issue of meat sacrificed to idols is visible in Rev 2:14. But speaking to my own liberal community, I advocate that we not resort to the "bigot" business for people who are, after all, just trying to be true to the faith in which they grew up. I acknowledge that it's harder on the other side, where the tradition demands that homosexuality not be tolerated.

redleghunter said:

I would not say kooky but strange and confusing.

For example, in the military a gay man is still a man meaning he will dress as a man and follow the male grooming and uniform standards. Same for females. That was really and honestly not a difficult transition for the military as I observed before retiring three years ago.

Now for transgender soldiers? Very confusing. A biological male who identifies as a female but has not made any physical changes other than cosmetic, is now allowed to shower with females. What makes it inappropriate in my estimation is even though a biological male identfies as female does not mean they are no longer physically attracted to females. Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner mentioned he/she is still attracted to females.

So you have a physically identifiable male who identifies as a female who still is sexually attracted to females using the same shower/bathroom facilities as females.

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Yeah, I can imagine it would be strange.

I also draw a distinction between gay people and trans because of how they view others. Like, I've got gay friends. I can hang out with them - they know I'm not gay - so there's no "issue" between us. My not being gay is not seen as some sort of bigotry to them. Nobody ever accuses me for being "homophobic" because I don't want to have sex with them.

But Trans people...it's an entirely different dynamic. I've got one trans friend (Male to Female) that I grew up with. We're friends on facebook...so I get to see all of the stuff that they post up on their wall...and it's different than the kind of stuff you see gay people writing about.

Trans people - the ENTIRE focus of their movement is being accepted as being that thing they wish to be. Like, my friend believes that there is NO fundamental difference between "him" and my wife in terms of being a "real woman". And, there's a lot of stuff that tangentially comes as a consequence of taking that position.

For example - there's this ongoing dialog on whether or not a trans person is obligated to tell someone that they're dating that they're trans (including pre-operation) when they've still got a dongle swinging between their legs. Their position is NO. That person has NO obligation to tell someone that they're dating that they're trans...because if you admitted that...that would mean that you're somehow different. That you're not a "real" woman. After all - my wife didn't need to tell anyone that she was dating that she was a woman. Why should the trans person?

And if the guy, upon discovery of the fact there's a dongle hanging there, gets upset about it...that's his problem. He's too focused on genitalia - and not the important and REAL things that make a woman a woman. It's his shortcoming that he doesn't understand or believe that a woman can have a penis - and if he has a problem with that - it's because he's a bigot and transphobic.

That kind of stuff really gives me problems. Unlike gay people, trans people want YOU to change how YOU look at sexuality. They want YOU to be cool (if you're a dude) with your partner having a penis - lol - and still consider yourself straight.

It's wacky...and a huge part of why I bristle about trans in a way that I don't bristle about gays.

FireDragon76 said:

I'll take your word for it, I mispoke. We understand large sections of Christianity such as Baptists, Congregationalists, the Puritan tradition, as being Reformed in some way, due to the historical influence of Reformed churches and Calvinism. And those traditions tend to emphasize having a conscious experience of being saved through a crisis and experiencing God's grace.

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The "born again experience" is evangelicalism, not Reformed.

Do Presbyterians believe in regeneration as a separate event from baptism? We see the Christian life as a journey starting from childhood. Except for more pietist Lutherans, we do not really focus on what other Christians might call being "born again", and even then the pietists see it in slightly different terms.

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The classic Reformed view is that regeneration is something God does in us, and is what makes faith possible. Quoting Westminster, baptism is "a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life."

We don't, quite, believe in baptismal regeneration, in the sense that baptism is a direct cause of regeneration. But they're closely connected. "The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time."