DEAD Jesus..."according to the scriptures"

[CopticOrthodox]

My dearest joy, Tracey:

Christ is Risen!

Christ-God is both Man and God.

He has a divine nature and a human nature.
Christ has a human soul (along with a human will) and a human body.

The Person of Christ - Who is Eternal God - unites Christ's humanity with Christ's divinity.

So when Christ died, his human soul separated from his human body.
And His Person (along with his human soul) went into Hades to preach the Good News to the captives and to set them free.

When Christ arose from the dead at His Resurrection, He broke the gates of Hell and set the captives free. Then He rose to His Father in heaven along with all the freed captives.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I don't think it's quite right to say that his human soul separated from his human body, this is dividing His humanity and divinity.

When Christ died, His spirit and His body became separated. But both His Body and His Spirit remained perfectly united with the godhead. The Body in the tomb was human and God, incorruptable. The Spirit that descended to Hades was human and divine, God and human. His divinity was not separated from His humanity at His death, merely His body and spirit.

 

[MariaRegina]

I know that you and I are agreeing on a lot of stuff here, but this one just doesn't seem to make sense to me. You even say it and still hold that His body was Divine somehow. Which to me is very confusing...

My dearest Brother in Christ, July 8, 2003

Christ is glorified in His Saints! May He also be glorified in us!

His body is human. His body bled and died on the Cross. How much more human can you get.
Somewhere in the Bible, and forgive me for not searching, my eyes are blurring, somewhere it says, “Philip, he who sees Me, sees the Father.” So when you look upon Christ (as Man) you see God.

I guess it's difficult for you to understand this mystery because you probably don't understand the gospel of John chapter 6. Read that and we can discuss that on another thread perhaps entitled: The Eucharist - real or symbolic?

Christ had a human fleshly body. I have a human fleshly body. Now this body (both of em in fact) is made in the image of God. There is nothing inherently evil about it, in fact just the opposite; the Bible says in Genesis that God said, "it is very good."

Yes, very good. We are created good, because what God creates is good. God cannot create evil. Evil results when we of our own free will chose to do evil. The black widow spider is not evil. It is just using poison to be able to eat. If we disturb it, then it bites in self-defense. But it is not evil in itself.

Do you remember in the Old Testament the story in Daniel about the Three Youths who were put in a huge hot furnace? Even the guards who threw the youths in the blazing flames were consumed by it. These three youths were seen walking around in the midst of the huge flames unharmed. In fact, there was a figure seen walking there among them, the figure of a man. This mysterious man has always been interpreted by the Church as Christ. (Even the SDAs believe that.)

Now – the mystery becomes even stronger. This story in the Old Testament occurred before Christ's Incarnation. Christ was walking around as a man on earth before He was even born or conceived in the womb. Kind of like a time machine? However, Christ isn't bound by time like we are. Time is a relative human experience, while Christ is the alpha and the omega.

Now the point is... Christ's body (body alone- not inclusive of soul and spirit) either had to be fully human... or mine (and yours and everyone else's) at one point had to be fully Divine. For since our bodies are made from the same human flesh, then they must have the same characteristics and one cannot differ from the other or they aren't truly the same flesh and Christ wasn't truly a human, making His death meaningless because the Law and prophets had to be fulfilled by a human. And if God lived His life here on Earth in a Divine body then... well He "cheated" because of course God could fill the requirements of the Law, but the special part came when a human did it. That human being the man Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you might want to reword this paragraph or did my paragraphs above clarify things?

Even before that Old Testament passage, did you read about Abraham and the three angels. The three angels represented the Holy Trinity. They also appeared in man's image. The image of Christ-God.

Remember that Christ is the Eternal Word of God. He always existed, but only became Man in our time. Our time is relative (man-made). God's time is eternal.

With God's time there is no past, present and future. God simply is. Heaven will never end. For our finite brains that's a mystery. Yet look, we want to live forever, don't we? We have that desire from God who created us to live forever with Him.

Now Jesus's Spirit being God, I see fully - no problem! His soul... I'm wavering on and here is where I thought the two combined. But His body, I have always thought was fully 100% human just like your's and mine.

Christ's body is 100 percent human just like yours. We are all created in the image of Christ-God, not God in our image.

But if His was Divine, then mine must be too - and I don't see that.

His body was human because He became human. His Body is Sacred because He is God.

Christ became Man so that man could become God. -- St. Irenaeus of Lyons

Christ became Man so that we humans could become like God by grace.

We can never become as God is in His very Nature (Being or Essence). God by nature is God, we by nature are humans, but we can be transformed or deified by Divine Energy (God's grace) into saints. And that is what saints are – they are deified human beings who have truly put on Christ.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[MariaRegina]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I don't think it's quite right to say that his human soul separated from his human body, this is dividing His humanity and divinity.

When Christ died, His spirit and His body became separated. But both His Body and His Spirit remained perfectly united with the godhead. The Body in the tomb was human and God, incorruptable. The Spirit that descended to Hades was human and divine, God and human. His divinity was not separated from His humanity at His death, merely His body and spirit.

My dearest Brother in Christ,

Christ had a human soul. He also had a Divine Spirit. He had a human will and a divine will. The fact that Christ has a human will and a divine will was defined by an Ecumenical Council.

Death is the separation of body and soul (spirit).

We use soul and spirit interchangeably.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[CopticOrthodox]

My dearest Brother in Christ,

Christ had a human soul. He also had a Divine Spirit. He had a human will and a divine will. The fact that Christ has a human will and a divine will was defined by an Ecumenical Council.

Death is the separation of body and soul (spirit).

We use soul and spirit interchangeably.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

What council?

 

[MariaRegina]

What council?

Dearest Coptic:

Christ is in our midst!

Have you ever read THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy Ware (now Bishop Kallistos)?

Timothy Ware wrote the book because he was a Anglican scholar. In the process of writing the book, he converted to Orthodoxy. He covers all the Ecumenical Councils and is very fair and balanced. He doesn't use any name calling and addresses the whole history of the church - the schism of 1054 - the protestant reformation - the problems within the Church of England. It's very complete and yet compact. He is surprisingly charitable and a joy to read. He also treats the Copts with great respect. I know you will enjoy it.

Since this book is a very good history of Orthodoxy (including the history of the Alexandrian Church from which you hail) you might want to pick up a copy in the library or buy it. I saw it at Amazon.com.

YSIC
Elizabeth

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I've read the Orthodox Way, but the Orthodox Church is still a ways down on my list of books to read which I'm getting through far to slowly unfortunatly. In the mean time could you tell me which council this issue was discussed at if you know? I knew that the idea that Christ has two wills was a difference between OO & RC, but I didn't realize that it's an issue between OO & EO. I suspect that it's the mono/mia/duophysite argument thing that that we don't actually believe different things, just talking from a different point of view, but I would like to understand if are able to shed any light.

 

[MariaRegina]

My dearest brothers in Christ:
Christ is Risen!

I just came across a great passage in Bishop Kallistos Ware's THE ORTHODOX CHURCH (p. 33) that addresses what we have been discussing regarding the Word becoming flesh:

God took a material body, thereby proving that matter can be redeemed: 'The Word made flesh has deified the flesh,' said John of Damascus. God has 'diefied' matter, making it 'spirit-bearing'; and if flesh has become a vehicle of the Spirit, then so - through a different way - can wood and paint. The Orthodox doctrine of icons is bound up with the Orthodox belief that the whole of God's creation, material as well as spiritual, is to be redeemed and glorified.

So, there you have it, Christ came to deify us -- at the Last Judgment all those of us who have been granted salvation will have a glorified body, like Christs.

(We will be able to pass through doors, as one of my Catholic nuns told me. Well, the way I look at it, I'll be so happy to be in heaven, it doesn't matter if I can fly through doors. I just want to be with Jesus, my Lord and God, for all eternity.)

YSIC
Elizabeth

 

[Bastoune]

Indeed. "Body He was in" seems to border (in wording) on an ancient heresy of Nestorianism, as if in Mary's womb there was the human nature of Christ totally separate from His divine nature. But Christ was fully human and fully divine inseparably.

Not saying you believe this, but beware that (as the Church Fathers understood well) wording is a very delicate thing!

 

[MariaRegina]

Indeed. "Body He was in" seems to border (in wording) on an ancient heresy of Nestorianism, as if in Mary's womb there was the human nature of Christ totally separate from His divine nature. But Christ was fully human and fully divine inseparably.

Not saying you believe this, but beware that (as the Church Fathers understood well) wording is a very delicate thing!

My dearest Tim:

Christ is in our midst!
He is and always shall be!

Please quote the reference that you mentioned above, as we don't know who said that.

By the way, do you know in what councils the Church Fathers discussed Christ's human and divine wills.

Your Sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[MariaRegina]

my Dearest brothers and sisters in Christ,

Christ is in our midst!
He is and always shall be!

The Third Ecumenical Council was concerned about Nestorianism. Here is information taken from the website listed below:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8066.asp

The Third Ecumenical Council

Held in Ephesus, Asia Minor in 431 under Emperor Theodosius II (grandson of Theodosius the Great). 200 Bishops were present.

The Nestorian Controversy

It concerned the nature of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Nestorius taught that the Virgin Mary gave birth to a man, Jesus Christ, not God, the "Logos" ("The Word", Son of God). The Logos only dwelled in Christ, as in a Temple (Christ, therefore, was only Theophoros: The "Bearer of God". Consequently, Virgin Mary should be called "Christotokos," Mother of Christ and not "Theotokos, "Mother of God." Hence, the name, "Christological controversies".

Nestorianism over emphasized the human nature of Christ at the expense of the divine. The Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous. Our Lord Jesus Christ is one person, not two separate "people": the Man, Jesus Christ and the Son of God, Logos. The Council decreed that Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Logos), is complete God and complete man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary is "Theotokos" because she gave birth not to man but to God who became man. The union of the two natures of Christ took place in such a fashion that one did not disturb the other.
The Creed

The Council declared the text of the "Creed" decreed at the First and Second Ecumenical Councils to be complete and forbade any change (addition or deletion).

Hope this helps!
Elizabeth

 

[Arc]

So when Christ died, his human soul separated from his human body.
And His Person (along with his human soul) went into Hades to preach the Good News to the captives and to set them free.

When Christ arose from the dead at His Resurrection, He broke the gates of Hell and set the captives free. Then He rose to His Father in heaven along with all the freed captives.

Elizabeth

Where do you get that Jesus went to Hades (Hell)


Ephesians 4:
8 Therefore it says,
"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

I understand the above passage as Jesus descending from heaven to dwell among men which is the "lower parts" of the earth. When he ascended, he went back into heaven, were he was before. The captives are us that were held captive by sin, and the gifts are the gifts of the Spirit.

This is why I think that;

John 3:13
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

John 6:62
"What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

PS 139;
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Was David woven together in Hades?


Jesus finished the work of atonement on the cross.

John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Where did his Spirit go?

Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD , the God of truth.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

His Spirit went to heaven, His body lay in the tomb (bowels of the earth) for 3 days. After that time, His Spirit returned to His body and it was raised imperishable.

1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Just as we will be at His second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[MariaRegina]

So when Christ died, his human soul separated from his human body. And His Person (along with his human soul) went into Hades to preach the Good News to the captives and to set them free.

When Christ arose from the dead at His Resurrection, He broke the gates of Hell and set the captives free. Then He rose to His Father in heaven along with all the freed captives.

Where do you get that Jesus went to Hades (Hell)

Ephesians 4:
8 Therefore it says,
"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

My dearest Arc:

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

From what did Christ rise! Death! He rose from the dead. Where did the dead go - to Hades. I believe in the literal meaning of the text. You are a fundamentalist, aren't you?

If Christ didn't descend into Hades, He could not have destroyed death by His death.

From the Apostolic times, the Church has consistently taught that Jesus descended into Hades. Hence St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians. If you read the early Church Fathers you will find confirming texts.

Why did He go into Hades? To preach to the Old Testament captives (saints as well as sinners) the Good News of salvation. All who accepted Christ with repentance of their sins were enabled to rise with Christ into Heaven. Therefore Christ lead the captives out of Hades into Heaven, when He rose from the dead. Thus the early Church honored David the King as St. David. The Orthodox Christians still honor David as a Saint. Likewise, we honor Moses as a Saint.

The Icon of the Resurrection depicts Christ lifting St. Adam and St. Eve out of the gates of Hades with St. David standing next to Christ.

This is why St. John the Baptist died before Christ. St. John prepared the way of the Lord on this earth by his preaching of repentance, then he also prepared the way of the Lord in Hades. Therefore, there is no way that anyone can call the Lord unmerciful. Christ gave the Old Testament people every opportunity to repent and to accept Him as their savior. He also offers that opportunity to us the living.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth



1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[Arc]

From what did Christ rise! Death! He rose from the dead. Where did the dead go - to Hades. I believe in the literal meaning of the text. You are a fundamentalist, aren't you?

If Christ didn't descend into Hades, He could not have destroyed death by His death.

From the Apostolic times, the Church has consistently taught that Jesus descended into Hades. Hence St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians. If you read the early Church Fathers you will find confirming texts.

Why did He go into Hades? To preach to the Old Testament captives (saints as well as sinners) the Good News of salvation. All who accepted Christ with repentance of their sins were enabled to rise with Christ into Heaven. Therefore Christ lead the captives out of Hades into Heaven, when He rose from the dead. Thus the early Church honored David the King as St. David. The Orthodox Christians still honor David as a Saint. Likewise, we honor Moses as a Saint.

I would agree that Hades is "the grave". But going to Hell is for torment as we see in Luke 16:19-31

23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Clearly, if someone was in Hades, they will not be persuaded by anything, even the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham in Genesis, which was Christ.

Christ didn't "preach" as in trying to get them to believe, as Luke 16:31 shows would not be possible. But to proclaim His triumphent victory:

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Christ defeated death, He did not have to break people out of Hades, Hades is in submission to the power of Christ, not the other way around. Although I'm not saying I disagree with your ultimate point, It's just that I hear a lot of stories about Jesus having to go to Hades and suffer again (Spiritually) in Hades for our sins. Who tormented Christ in Hell? Satan? That would be a complete role reversal. Christ was always Christ, He suffered on the cross, not in Hades. Proclaimed victory, I can see that. But as Luke 16 shows, those who are dead go where they are going stay, in torment or rest. Christ deafeated death, he didn't have to "bust" the "good" people out of Hades.

Besides, if he did go to Hades, how long was he there? Christ told the theif next to Him,

Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

When you combine that with:

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Why would you think His Spirit went anywere but up? Proclaiming His vicotry. Being dead is about as low as you can go.

I'm just curious, as I have heard many variations of the "Jesus went to Hell" story.

 

[MariaRegina]

My dearest joy in Christ, Arc:

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

Christ defeated death, He did not have to break people out of Hades, Hades is in submission to the power of Christ, not the other way around. Although I'm not saying I disagree with your ultimate point, It's just that I hear a lot of stories about Jesus having to go to Hades and suffer again (Spiritually) in Hades for our sins. Who tormented Christ in Hell? Satan? That would be a complete role reversal. Christ was always Christ, He suffered on the cross, not in Hades. Proclaimed victory, I can see that. But as Luke 16 shows, those who are dead go where they are going stay, in torment or rest. Christ defeated death, he didn't have to "bust" the "good" people out of Hades.

Besides, if he did go to Hades, how long was he there? Christ told the thief next to Him,

Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Okay, what is paradise? Isn't it where the Lord is?

What is Hades for the Old Testament? It is the grave, where the dead dwell, where Christ is not present.

So, when Christ dies, He goes to Hades and preaches the Good News of Salvation to all who receive Him. For those people who hear Him, they are in Paradise already.

I have been in a beautiful mountain retreat and experienced anguish, yet I have been in a hot humid humble home and experienced paradise on earth. Can you relate to this?

So for the people of the Old Testament who loved Christ and had looked forward to His Coming, they were in Paradise already. The Thief on the Cross was in Paradise when Christ pronounced those word, "This day you shall be with Me in Paradise." He died in joy, his death could not destroy the peace and joy he felt in his heart.

Christ remained in Hades from the moment He died until early on Sunday morning. He was rising to be with His Father when He met St. Mary Magdalen. That is why He cautioned her not to touch Him.

Remember until the Glorious Second Coming of Christ, Hell will not be a place. It is only a state. There are no bodies in Hell that we know of.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth