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DEAD Jesus..."according to the scriptures"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Pistos Ergon, Apr 15, 2003.

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  1. Pistos Ergon

    Pistos Ergon Guest

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    In the heart of his message on justification as found in Romans, Paul testifies, “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:6-8) Paul states that Christ did die and that He died for those who hated His Father.

    Writing to the Corinthians, Paul also declared: “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:3) Two significant things from Paul’s words will be noted at this time. First, the gospel he taught was that which he received. Paul declares that he had received first hand instruction from Christ Himself. Earlier in this epistle, he had written: “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you.” (1 Corinthians 11:23a) He also instructed the Galatians: “For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:12) Clearly, what Paul claims to have taught was the pure, direct Gospel of Christ.

    Second, neither Paul, nor the other Bible writers, used words in meaningless ways. When Paul wrote that “Christ died,” he meant just that. The term Jesus Christ is more than a name, it is really a compound of the Son of God’s earthly name, “Jesus” which means Saviour, and His heavenly position, “Christ” (the Anointed One or Messiah). If Paul had wanted to emphasize that it was only the human nature of the Son that died, he could have written that “Jesus died” but instead he wrote “Christ (the Anointed One or divine Messiah) died.” Paul believed that the Son of God really died.

    The testimony of Jesus Christ Himself is equally clear. In Revelation 1:18 Jesus says: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” Jesus says that he was dead. Friend, did He lie? I don’t believe that He ever told anything but pure truth. We can agree with Peter when he stated that Jesus “did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.” (1 Peter 2:22) No, Jesus told the truth when He said that He was the Son of God and that He died. He is “the faithful and true witness.” (Revelation 3:14)
     
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  2. Pistos Ergon

    Pistos Ergon Guest

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    “According to the Scriptures”

    Paul noted in 1 Corinthians 15:3 that “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.” The most graphic and detailed account of Christ’s death is found in Isaiah chapter 53. This chapter describes the totality of Christ’s death. The last three verses of chapter 52 and the first six verses of chapter 53 begin with the sufferings of Yahweh’s servant. However, it must be remembered that the law required death, not torture. Verses seven through twelve speak explicitly of death.1

    “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.” (verse 7) Here Christ is described as being brought as “a lamb to the slaughter.” I grew up in an area where there were cattle and various animals on farms, and any farmer knows what happens during slaughter time. The animal is killed! The Hebrew word for slaughter, tebach, can also be translated “massacre.”

    “He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.” (verse 8) The expression “cut off” is used in Daniel 9:26 to describe the death of the Messiah. Further, the verse states that the Messiah was to be “cut off out of the land of the living.” If one is not living, he must be dead.

    “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.” (verse 9) This text which describes Christ’s burial states plainly that He was to be put in a “grave.” Friends, it is neither legal nor proper to bury people in graves unless they are dead! Further, this text speaks of “his death.”

    “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” (verse 10) This is perhaps one of the strongest statements in all of Scripture concerning the atonement. The Word of God does not say that the Messiah would give his human body for the offering, but instead His “soul.” The Hebrew word for “soul” is nephesh. This refers to the total being, all that lives and breathes!

    “He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” (verses 11, 12) Here is a clear allusion to the drink offering which was poured out to show total and complete sacrifice. The Word states that Jesus “poured out his soul unto death.” Here “soul” is again the Hebrew nephesh. The word for “death,” maveth is from the root word translated “die” in Ezekiel 18:4 where we read that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
     
  3. Pistos Ergon

    Pistos Ergon Guest

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    Thank you, Jesus, for pouring out your soul unto death. :bow:
     
  4. Pistos Ergon

    Pistos Ergon Guest

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    Bump
     
  5. duster1az

    duster1az Member

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    Pistos Ergon writes: "Second, neither Paul, nor the other Bible writers, used words in meaningless ways. When Paul wrote that “Christ died,” he meant just that. The term Jesus Christ is more than a name, it is really a compound of the Son of God’s earthly name, “Jesus” which means Saviour, and His heavenly position, “Christ” (the Anointed One or Messiah). If Paul had wanted to emphasize that it was only the human nature of the Son that died, he could have written that “Jesus died” but instead he wrote “Christ (the Anointed One or divine Messiah) died.” Paul believed that the Son of God really died."

    Are you saying that Christ's Divine Spirit suffered death?

    If your are, and your defenition of spiritual death is seperation from God, please answer how God can seperate from Himself?

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
  6. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    My dearest joy, Tracey:

    Christ is Risen!

    Christ-God is both Man and God.

    He has a divine nature and a human nature.
    Christ has a human soul (along with a human will) and a human body.

    The Person of Christ - Who is Eternal God - unites Christ's humanity with Christ's divinity.

    So when Christ died, his human soul separated from his human body.
    And His Person (along with his human soul) went into Hades to preach the Good News to the captives and to set them free.

    When Christ arose from the dead at His Resurrection, He broke the gates of Hell and set the captives free. Then He rose to His Father in heaven along with all the freed captives.

    Hope this helps.

    Elizabeth
     
  7. duster1az

    duster1az Member

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    Chanterhanson writes: "Christ-God is both Man and God."

    I'm fully aware of the hypostatic union, but through the incarnation Christ never ceased being God. So my question remains, how can God die spiritually?

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
  8. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    My dearest joy, Tracey, Christ is Risen!

    This is a mystery which we will never fully understand. How can we fully understand the Incomprehensible God? He is truly unknowable in His Essence.

    However since Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man. When He died, He experienced Death. He had to die in order to destroy death. When He arose from the dead, He made our own resurrection possible.

    This is the mystery of God's love. God became man so God Himself experienced pain (the circumcision, the whipping, the crucifixion and death itself).

    St. Irenaeus (an early Church Father) said that God became Man so that Man might become God. We can become deified - by grace - if we truly love God. That is what God wants. He wants us to become saints.

    Jesus Christ the God-Man, wasn't some schizophrenic. No, He was truly one Person - the Divine Person - who experienced everything human that we experience. He became one of us to show us the way.

    Hope this helps

    Elizabeth
     
  9. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    Christ's Spirit never died, for as a man's soul lives when He dies for eternity, so also Christ's Spirit was alive after the physical death of the body He was in.

    But thank God He's no longer DEAD Jesus, but ALIVE JESUS!! :D :D
     
  10. Philip

    Philip Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity

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    Christ's body was God too, not just His spirit.
     
  11. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    My dearest Philip

    Christ is Risen!

    Since, hopefully, these forums are an excellent opportunity to learn our faith through these debates, can I ask you a question?

    Isn't it true that in Christ there is no confusion of His Divinity with His Humanity? Isn't He truly God and truly Man, without mixing the two natures.

    Doesn't the term "hypostatic union" mean that the Personhood of Christ - which is Divine - unites the Divine Nature with the Human Nature of Christ?

    Just something to think about!

    Hope this helps

    Your sister in Christ,

    Elizabeth
     
  12. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    Was it? Remember that I'm only 18 here and just asking a question because this honestly confuses me... not just arguing for the heck of it.

    When I say Christ's body, I mean his physcial flesh body. Also all statements about His Spirit are also true today so "Sprit was" means "was/is/will be."

    Christ's body was not pre-existing, His Spirit was. Christ's body was not omnipresent, His Spirit was. Christ's body was not omnipotent, His Spirit was. Christ's body and mind were not omniscient, but His Spirit was.

    I don't see the attributes of God in the physical body of Christ, but rather in His Spirit. For God is spirit remember? (John 4:24)

    The Bible also says that Christ came in the flesh on more than one occasion. (1 Peter 4:1, 1 John*4:2, 2 John*1:7, and John 1:14 to name a few)

    I don't see the Bible saying that Christ came and lived within a diety-body but rather a fleshly body.

    So why do people say that His body was diety as well? I've never seen that. I understand the Spirit being fully God, but not His body...
     
  13. Philip

    Philip Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity

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    "The Word became flesh". Jesus was not a physical man with God living inside Him.

    Agreed, but He became flesh.

    A divine fleshy body.

    We say it because Scripture does.

    John 1:14 RSVA
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    How do you understand this verse?
     
  14. Pistos Ergon

    Pistos Ergon Guest

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    "Are you saying that Christ's Divine Spirit suffered death? If your are, and your defenition of spiritual death is seperation from God..."

    Jesus' soul died.
    Isa 53.12
    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Rev 1.18
    I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Jesus is alive because He was resurrected from the dead.
    Jesus WAS DEAD. He said so. You cannot divide Jesus into parts. My definition of death is probably not the same as yours.

    Was just a part of Jesus dead? No. He said "I..was dead."

    No matter how exalted the preexistent Son was; no matter how glorious, how powerful, or even eternal; if the manhood only died, the sacrifice was only human. And so far as the vicarious death of Christ is concerned, this is Socinianism.
     
  15. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    Dearest Philip in Christ:

    Christ is in our midst!

    I cringed when you said, "Christ's body was God too, not just His spirit." That's not precise theologically speaking. Same with "a divine fleshy body."

    Please try to be correct, even if it takes a little more time to write.

    I think you are doing a fine job, but please take a little more time to be careful. At least you don't quote people out of context. I hope also that the administrators won't appoint people to be moderators who quote people out of context, because if they do I'm out of here.

    YSIC

    Elizabeth
     
  16. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    If you didn't notice... this verse is under my "Jesus came in flesh not in God" section.

    I understand that to mean that they saw the One who God chose. But it says the Christ became flesh. Not God-flesh and not divine flesh... for all human flesh was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) so therefore my own flesh is just as Godly as Jesus' flesh was. So either all flesh is "divine-flesh" as you call it... or all flesh is just that... flesh. Christ's flesh being the same as ours. But Christ had to dwell within the same flesh that we have otherwise He couldn't have fulfilled the covenant requirements by His death. (Hebrews 2:14-18) See even Hebrews 2:14 says that He took on Himself the same flesh and blood as the rest of us!

    Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    Also, you just make your statements with no solid Biblical base behind them. You assume them to automatically be true because of what you've been taught... and are trying to prove a point to me using the same point I don't believe to be exactly true. Which isn't helpful at all....

    But herein lies another problem with the whole thing... keep in mind that Hebrews 2:14 verse also which says "partook of the same." How would one explain Hebrews 2:9 apart from it being in reference to the fleshly body which He took upon Himself? For surely God cannot be lower than angels... and God cannot be divided against Himself... for a house divided against itself shall not stand, remember?

    Also then there lies.... Hebrews 5:7-9 :

    Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
    Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
    Heb 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,


    How can God be "made perfect" since He is perfect already? Unless of course this verse deals with a reference to the perfecting of the fleshly body in which He dwelt... which is the only way this verse could make sense.

    Now if His body then needed to be perfected, how then could it have been "divine-flesh" and/or "God-flesh"?

    You see? This doesn't make sense to say that the body in which Christ dwelt during His stay on this Earth (Hebrews 5:7 calls this the "days of His flesh") was perfect divine nature doesn't make sense in light of what Hebrews says about all of this.

    And thus is my reasoning for why I don't claim that Jesus lived on Earth in a "God-body."
     
  17. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    My Dearest Joy in Christ:

    I have an 18 year old son myself, so I can understand your need to clear up confusing ideas. This kind of theology is deep. If you study philosophy in college that will help.

    What is your belief about your human condition?

    1) Do you believe that you have a body and a soul that animates it.
    2) Will this soul separate from the body at death?
    3) Is your soul immortal and does it go to its eternal reward (to heaven or to hell)?
    4) Will your body be joined with your soul at the Resurrection of the Dead at the end of the world?
    5) Will you have a glorified body for eternity if you are saved?

    If you can answer these questions, then we can see if we can clear up any confusions. If the answer is No, then please give your position.

    Your sister in Christ,
    Elizabeth
     
  18. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    Body yes... soul and spirit animate the body. So yes.

    Yes.

    Yes (and in my case heaven for I have been cleansed for eternity!! :D :D :D)

    My exact body? I'm not sure... I've never really understood whether it was the current body or the glorified body you wrote about it ?#5...

    Yup

    I don't really see what there is to clear up :) And my points made about Jesus' body being fully flesh, ie no more divine than you or I (with respect to flesh only) are very sound. I don't understand why it has been taught that Christ's body was fully God.

    You obviously see a distinction between the soul and the body.... that the body is but a temporary carrier of the immortal soul and spirit. My question in no way takes away the Divinity of Christ for His Soul and Spirit were both fully Eternal God. However, I just think that His earthly body (earthly carrier of His Soul and Spirit) was the same flesh you and I have.
     
  19. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    My dearest Brother in Christ:

    Christ is Risen!

    The reason why I asked you these questions is that I have discussed the Scriptures with members of the SDA (Seventh Day Adventists) who hold a different view than we do about the body. Their theology confuses me, so I won't go into that. Perhaps another thread.

    This is why I asked those questions. And we do agree. That's good.

    The early Church had quite a problem with gnostics who believed that the body temporarily enslaved the soul. They were dualists who believed that the body was evil and the soul good, according to what I was taught. They didn't like the idea of a resurrection of the body.

    Christ, by His Glorious Resurrection, taught that the body is good. We are made in Christ's image, not the other way around. When Satan realized that Christ was going to create humans and then He was going to become Man, Satan rebelled. Satan didn't want to worship the God-Man. Did you know that we are now created a little above angels because Christ ascended into heaven? We are the sons and daughters of the King of Heaven! This idea infuriates the devil, because he wanted to be the top dog. [BTW: My sister graduated from The King's College, a good Bible College for teachers.]

    Yes, Christ has a human body, just like ours. His Sacred Body bled and died for us. But the difference is that a Divine Person - the Eternal Word of God joined that Body in a hypostatic union. It became God's body. Christ became Human. He had to become human to save us by His death on the Cross, and Glorious Resurrection.

    Where it becomes confusing - and Christology is very confusing - is that Christ has a human will (My will) and a divine will (Your will).

    Luke 22:42 "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." (NKJV)

    I am not a theologian, but perhaps Bishop Kallistos Ware, a previous Anglican scholar, who wrote THE ORTHODOX CHURCH can explain it better,

    "Christ must be fully God and fully human. Each heresy in turn undermined some part of this vital affirmation. Either Christ was made less than God (Arianism); or His humanity was so divided from His Godhead that He became two persons instead of one (Nestorianism); or He was not presented as truly human (Monophysitism, Monothelitism).

    Hope this helps.

    Your sister in Christ,

    Elizabeth
     
  20. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    I know that you and I are agreeing on a lot of stuff here, but this one just doesn't seem to make sense to me. You even say it and still hold that His body was Divine somehow. Which to me is very confusing...

    Christ had a human fleshly body. I have a human fleshly body. Now this body (both of em in fact) is made in the image of God. There is nothing inherently evil about it, in fact just the opposite; the Bible says in Genesis that God said, "it is very good."

    Now the point is... Christ's body (body alone- not inclusive of soul and spirit) either had to be fully human... or mine (and yours and everyone else's) at one point had to be fully Divine. For since our bodies are made from the same human flesh, then they must have the same characteristics and one cannot differ from the other or they aren't truly the same flesh and Christ wasn't truly a human, making His death meaningless because the Law and prophets had to be fulfilled by a human. And if God lived His life here on Earth in a Divine body then... well He "cheated" because of course God could fill the requirements of the Law, but the special part came when a human did it. That human being the man Jesus Christ.

    Now Jesus's Spirit being God, I see fully - no problem! His soul... I'm wavering on and here is where I thought the two combined. But His body, I have always thought was fully 100% human just like your's and mine.

    But if His was Divine, then mine must be too - and I don't see that.
     
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