LDS Dead Faith or Dead Works?

[Rescued One]

I know you have read the NT. So reconcile these two scriptures:
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

God forgave sinners before He made them new creatures.

Ephesians 4
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus is the centerpiece of the Church of Jesus Christ. How could Jesus be involved in spiritual darkness?

He isn't. He isn't.

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

 

[He is the way]

God forgave sinners before He made them new creatures.

Ephesians 4
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

And we LOVE Him be keeping the commandments of LOVE:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:1 - 4)

1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 

[Peter1000]

If the Mormon church separates itself ftom Christians, it is an abomination to God.

*

* an abomination to God, not of God.

And I testfy that Joseph Smith brought and still brings blindness to many people:

He lied when he taught:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right -- and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight....

"He again forbade me to join with any of them" (Joseph Smith - History 1:18-20).

He lied repeatedly.

Why would JS at the age of 15 come out of that grove of trees and lie?

Why, when he was shot at and beat up and took to court and his life was starting to be a hell, why would he continue the lie?

Why, when he had to move to another place because of the persecution and threats on he and his wife would he continue the lie?

Why, when he was dragged from his home in the middle of the night and tarred and feathered and beaten and left for dead would he continue the lie.

Why, when he and his people were on the verge of destruction from mobs from hell, and their women were raped and their property stolen and burned in the middle of the winter and forced to march 400 miles to the other side of the Mississippi river would he continue the lie.

Why, when he was taken to jail and promised protection from the governor, then the men sworn to protect him turned on him and was ready to kill him would he continue the lie.
He chose to continue the truth and was killed for his testimony.

Any where along that cruel path he could have pulled the plug and got out from under the pressure of that lie. Why you ask. Because as JS said, he had seen God and Jesus and he knew that They knew and therefore he could not say otherwise.

IOW he was telling the truth.

 

[Rescued One]

Why would JS at the age of 15 come out of that grove of trees and lie?

Why, when he was shot at and beat up and took to court and his life was starting to be a hell, why would he continue the lie?

Why, when he had to move to another place because of the persecution and threats on he and his wife would he continue the lie?

Liars know what happens to liars.

Why would JS at the age of 15 come out of that grove of trees and lie?

Have you never heard of fifteen-year-old liars?

Why, when he was dragged from his home in the middle of the night and tarred and feathered and beaten and left for dead would he continue the lie.

If he admitted to lying, he most certainly would have been killed and probably by Mormons.

Why, when he and his people were on the verge of destruction from mobs from hell, and their women were raped and their property stolen and burned in the middle of the winter and forced to march 400 miles to the other side of the Mississippi river would he continue the lie.

You like to ask questions, but not provide answers. If you do answer, why should we believe your narrative? Now tell us that Mormon men never raped anyone. My ex-brother-in-law was a Mormon child molestor.

Why, when he was taken to jail and promised protection from the governor, then the men sworn to protect him turned on him and was ready to kill him would he continue the lie.
He chose to continue the truth and was killed for his testimony.

You don't know the motives of those who wanted him dead. He was not a righteous man and provoked many people with his sins.

Any where along that cruel path he could have pulled the plug and got out from under the pressure of that lie. Why you ask. Because as JS said, he had seen God and Jesus and he knew that They knew and therefore he could not say otherwise.

He never saw God. Neither did he repent of his lies, foundng an illegal bank that failed, stealing of other men's wives, his destroying the Nauvoo Expositor printing press. Horse thieves were hung; do you think wife stealers had free reign?

Purchase a copy:
Nauvoo Expositor

IOW he was telling the truth.

I doubt that he ever told the truth!

 

[He is the way]

Liars know what happens to liars.



Have you never heard of fifteen-year-old liars?



If he admitted to lying, he most certainly would have been killed and probably by Mormons.



You like to ask questions, but not provide answers. If you do answer, why should we believe your narrative? Now tell us that Mormon men never raped anyone. My ex-brother-in-law was a Mormon child molestor.




You don't know the motives of those who wanted him dead. He was not a righteous man and provoked many people with his sins.



He never saw God. Neither did he repent of his lies, foundng an illegal bank that failed, stealing of other men's wives, his destroying the Nauvoo Expositor printing press. Horse thieves were hung; do you think wife stealers had free reign?

Purchase a copy:
Nauvoo Expositor



I doubt that he ever told the truth!

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:21 - 25)

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
24 However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.
25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Bump for @Peter1000

You lack understanding of God's grace. Just because one does not forgive a trespass, does not mean they lose their salvation. That's just silly.

Case in point - A woman I was recently talking with at church has been a believer most all of her life. She is a former nurse. A patient died on her watch many years ago. A lawsuit was filed. During a deposition, the doctor suggested it may have been the nurse's fault for dispensing the incorrect dosage of medicine, even though she followed the correct prescription/procedure. Lawsuit was settled, doctor eventually retired and moved away, she eventually retired. She and the doctor continued to stay in touch over 10-15 years, but the issue was never discussed. After all those years, she held on to that bitterness. During our discussion, she realized she needed to forgive him for saying what he said.

In Christian theology, she is still a child of God and would have been saved if she had died during those 10-15 years. Her relationship with God during this time was broken, even if just a little bit. When she realized her need to forgive, and did, her burden was lifted and her relationship with God was restored. At least as far as it relates to that matter. There was much joy in her after that.

In your theology, she lived 10-15 years without salvation until she forgave the doctor. How sad.

Tell me, which theology most closely reflects the grace of God?

 

[Peter1000]

Liars know what happens to liars.

What happens to liars in a little NY town in 1830, when a 15 year old suddenly stops telling the lie and the truth starts making its way to the surface. Just what happens to liars in this setting?
So are you telling me at the age of 15, JS was conjuring up a church of his own. Did he lie to everybody to get this church started at 15 years old. Come on.

Have you never heard of fifteen-year-old liars?

Yes I have, they lie about stealing that candy bar, or pushing a guy into a mud puddle, or throwing a baseball through a window, but I have never heard a 15 year old tell a lie in regards to setting up his own church and start finding followers at the age of 15. Come on.

If he admitted to lying, he most certainly would have been killed and probably by Mormons.

Not at the age of 15-23. Most people thought he was out of his mind, and dismissed him. He could have run away, and in the 1800's could have got lost for good. Nobody was going to kill him at that age.

You like to ask questions, but not provide answers. If you do answer, why should we believe your narrative? Now tell us that Mormon men never raped anyone. My ex-brother-in-law was a Mormon child molestor.

Bad answer, what has men in the Church of Jesus Christ today have to do with wild mobs in Missouri in 1830's sorely persecuting the people of the church?

You don't know the motives of those who wanted him dead. He was not a righteous man and provoked many people with his sins.

Does there need to be an understanding as to why a man was murdered by a state mob, whose duty it was to protect JS? Is it OK in your mind to murder an unrighteous man?

He never saw God. Neither did he repent of his lies, foundng an illegal bank that failed, stealing of other men's wives, his destroying the Nauvoo Expositor printing press. Horse thieves were hung; do you think wife stealers had free reign?

Everyone of your accusations are based upon false pretenses.
JS saw God and Jesus Christ. That is his testimony, and you cannot refute his testimony until Jesus comes a second time. Unless you were a fly on JS lapel and you witnessed everything that he did and you can tell us from observation that he did not see God. Good luck with that.

He founded a bank that failed because of a perfect storm in the economy and a bad manager of the bank did not do well.

JS did not steal any mans wife. By permission of the men, he married some women that were married only for time, and then they continued to live with their husband in this life. He did not ever consummate any "for time only" marriages.

One of the mistakes JS made (he was a normal human) was destroying the press.

He never stole a horse.

He never stole a wife.

You need to study with a real church historian that can tell you the whole truth.
Rather than a Mormon hating person that would not begrudge telling a lie because they are Mormons.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rescued One]

What happens to liars in a little NY town in 1830, when a 15 year old suddenly stops telling the lie and the truth starts making its way to the surface. Just what happens to liars in this setting?
So are you telling me at the age of 15, JS was conjuring up a church of his own. Did he lie to everybody to get this church started at 15 years old. Come on.

Yes, he lied.

Yes I have, they lie about stealing that candy bar, or pushing a guy into a mud puddle, or throwing a baseball through a window, but I have never heard a 15 year old tell a lie in regards to setting up his own church and start finding followers at the age of 15. Come on.

Use your logic. You have not heard every liar of any age.

Not at the age of 15-23. Most people thought he was out of his mind, and dismissed him.

You don't know what most people thought. You were not a fly on every person's lapel.

He could have run away, and in the 1800's could have got lost for good. Nobody was going to kill him at that age.

What they thought or could do is not our privilege to know.

Bad answer, what has men in the Church of Jesus Christ today have to do with wild mobs in Missouri in 1830's sorely persecuting the people of the church?

Bad response. You rely on prejudiced statements by Mormons.

Does there need to be an understanding as to why a man was murdered by a state mob, whose duty it was to protect JS? Is it OK in your mind to murder an unrighteous man?

Of course not! I'm a Christian. Joseph Smith had a gun that he used in response to the angry mob. Jesus didn't attack His accusers.

Everyone of your accusations are based upon false pretenses.

Then prove that or stop accusing me.

JS saw God and Jesus Christ. That is his testimony, and you cannot refute his testimony until Jesus comes a second time. Unless you were a fly on JS lapel and you witnessed everything that he did and you can tell us from observation that he did not see God. Good luck with that.

You weren't there either. We don't have to wait for Jesus' second return (which Joseph Smith said already happened). Unless you were a stupid fly on JS lapel (if he even had a lapel), you can't tell us from observation that he saw God. But we have God's word on the matter.

He founded a bank that failed because of a perfect storm in the economy and a bad manager of the bank did not do well.

Again, you were not there.

JS did not steal any mans wife. By permission of the men, he married some women that were married only for time, and then they continued to live with their husband in this life. He did not ever consummate any "for time only" marriages.

Were you a fly on his lapel?

from the Nauvoo Expositor:
We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us-freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good.-We are aware, however, that we are hazarding every earthly blessing, particularly property,and probably life itself, in striking this blow at tyranny and oppresion: yet notwithstanding we most solemnly declare that no man, or set of men combined, shall, with impunity, violate obligations as sacred as many which have been violated unless reason, justice and virtue have become ashamed and sought the haunts of the grave, though our lives be the forfeiture.

more:
Nauvoo Expositor Excerpts

One of the mistakes JS made (he was a normal human) was destroying the press.

The crime that he committed was destroying evidence against him.

He never stole a horse.

He never stole a wife.

He stole several wives.

You need to study with a real church historian that can tell you the whole truth.
Rather than a Mormon hating person that would not begrudge telling a lie because they are Mormons.

You have no clue who hates Mormons! You sound very desperate.

 

[Rescued One]

What happens to liars in a little NY town in 1830, when a 15 year old suddenly stops telling the lie and the truth starts making its way to the surface. Just what happens to liars in this setting?
So are you telling me at the age of 15, JS was conjuring up a church of his own. Did he lie to everybody to get this church started at 15 years old. Come on.

Yes, he lied.

Yes I have, they lie about stealing that candy bar, or pushing a guy into a mud puddle, or throwing a baseball through a window, but I have never heard a 15 year old tell a lie in regards to setting up his own church and start finding followers at the age of 15. Come on.

Use your logic. You have not heard every liar of any age.

Not at the age of 15-23. Most people thought he was out of his mind, and dismissed him.

You don't know what most people thought. You were not a fly on every person's lapel.

He could have run away, and in the 1800's could have got lost for good. Nobody was going to kill him at that age.

What they thought or could do is not our privilege to know.

Bad answer, what has men in the Church of Jesus Christ today have to do with wild mobs in Missouri in 1830's sorely persecuting the people of the church?

Bad response. You rely on prejudiced statements by Mormons.

Does there need to be an understanding as to why a man was murdered by a state mob, whose duty it was to protect JS? Is it OK in your mind to murder an unrighteous man?

Of course not! I'm a Christian. Joseph Smith had a gun that he used in response to the angry mob. Jesus didn't attack His accusers.

Everyone of your accusations are based upon false pretenses.

Then prove that or stop accusing me.

JS saw God and Jesus Christ. That is his testimony, and you cannot refute his testimony until Jesus comes a second time. Unless you were a fly on JS lapel and you witnessed everything that he did and you can tell us from observation that he did not see God. Good luck with that.

You weren't there either. We don't have to wait for Jesus' second return (which Joseph Smith said already happened). Unless you were a stupid fly on JS lapel (if he even had a lapel), you can't tell us from observation that he saw God. But we have God's word on the matter.

He founded a bank that failed because of a perfect storm in the economy and a bad manager of the bank did not do well.

Again, you were not there.

JS did not steal any mans wife. By permission of the men, he married some women that were married only for time, and then they continued to live with their husband in this life. He did not ever consummate any "for time only" marriages.

Were you a fly on his lapel?

from the Nauvoo Expositor:
We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us-freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good.-We are aware, however, that we are hazarding every earthly blessing, particularly property,and probably life itself, in striking this blow at tyranny and oppresion: yet notwithstanding we most solemnly declare that no man, or set of men combined, shall, with impunity, violate obligations as sacred as many which have been violated unless reason, justice and virtue have become ashamed and sought the haunts of the grave, though our lives be the forfeiture.

more:
Nauvoo Expositor Excerpts

One of the mistakes JS made (he was a normal human) was destroying the press.

The crime that he committed was destroying evidence against him.

He never stole a horse.

He never stole a wife.

He stole several wives.

You need to study with a real church historian that can tell you the whole truth.
Rather than a Mormon hating person that would not begrudge telling a lie because they are Mormons.

You have no clue who hates Mormons! You sound very desperate.

 

[He is the way]

So it boils down to the fact that dead faith is not saving faith. Only faith with works will save anyone:

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 20)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?