LDS Dead Faith or Dead Works?

[Rescued One]

The Church of Jesus Christ is certainly not an abomination to God. I was started by Jesus the Christ and he used JS to restore his church in these latter days to the earth again.

Only the future will tell the truth about what I say. His restored church, as prophecied will continue to come out of obscurity and will continue to separate itself from all other churches, whether Christian...

If the Mormon church separates itself ftom Christians, it is an abomination to God.

I say these things only to answer Phoebe Ann that Mormonism is an abomination of God.

*

* an abomination to God, not of God.

And I testfy that Joseph Smith brought and still brings blindness to many people:

He lied when he taught:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right -- and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight....

"He again forbade me to join with any of them" (Joseph Smith - History 1:18-20).

He lied repeatedly.

 

[Rescued One]

It is graced based and work based. We look forward to the grace of God during and after we have done those good works that God hath ordained that we should walk in. (Ephesians 2:10)

We do our works out of the love and grace and faith that God gives us to perform such good works.

If you think we do it to earn points and that enough points automatically gets us into heaven, then you have not been reading any of our posts for the last 2 years. WE DO NOT DO GOOD WORKS TO EARN OUR WAY INTO HEAVEN. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO ANYWAY. WE DO OUR GOOD WORKS BECAUSE WE LOVE GOD AND WANT TO BE LIKE HIM, AND DO THOSE GOOD WORKS THAT HE HAS BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE WALK IN.

I know you would like to continue the charade that we do works to earn salvation, so you can say things against us, but you are telling a falsehood, and you know it. I have told you many times before we do our good works out of love for God.

Why do you do your good works? Or do you despise good works and do not do them for fear of being involved in a works based salvation?

Those are apalling statements! You can say whatever you like, but if you are right your leaders are WRONG!

"Why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight?"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/hymns/come-come-ye-saints?lang=eng&_r=

For all the literal-minded people out there, let me preface this whole article with the statement that the word “estate” as used here has nothing to do with property. I was preparing a lesson on part of the plan of salvation recently and realized I would be talking about the subject of what it means to keep our second estate, now that we have already kept our first estate. It was only then that I recognized that no one had ever defined for me what an estate was, or what it means to “keep” an estate. It seems reasonable to assume that if we had to keep one estate before we could earn the right to come here, and we have to keep this estate before we can become exalted, that perhaps we should know what it means to successfully “keep” an estate...

Abraham 3:26
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
- Kelly Merrill
Kelly is retired and living in Rexburg, Idaho, USA. He currently writes for gospelstudy.us. You can find articles by Kelly on ldsblogs.com, ldsliving.com, and moronichannel.org as well. He has also published multiple works, including Premortal Promises, and Contributions to the Kingdom, both available on Amazon.com.
How to Keep Your Second Estate | Gospelstudy.us

BIBLE:

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We don't deserve eternal life or glory. God gets the glory!

 

[BigDaddy4]

There is no double speak. The bible says that:
Ephesians 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I can guarantee that if you do not the good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them, you will not be saved.

To be honest, your "guarantee" means diddly squat. It ignores God's grace. You are attaching works to salvation, which is what He Is The Way does. Both of you skip Ephesians 2:8-9. First, one accepts God's free gift of salvation (vv 8-9), then they go on to do good works (v 10).

 

[BigDaddy4]

Ephesians 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you understand that if you do not the good works that God has before ordained that we should walk in, you will not receive the free gift of grace?

Then the gift is not free if there are conditions attached to it.

 

[BigDaddy4]

It is graced based and work based.

Double speak. Forked tongue theology.

We do our works out of the love and grace and faith that God gives us to perform such good works.

If this were true by itself, then that would be great. God gives us saving faith, we accept, the go do His will on earth. But you add works as part of your salvation.

If you think we do it to earn points and that enough points automatically gets us into heaven, then you have not been reading any of our posts for the last 2 years. WE DO NOT DO GOOD WORKS TO EARN OUR WAY INTO HEAVEN. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO ANYWAY. WE DO OUR GOOD WORKS BECAUSE WE LOVE GOD AND WANT TO BE LIKE HIM, AND DO THOSE GOOD WORKS THAT HE HAS BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE WALK IN.

Now you are being dishonest. The lds has a long laundry list of things you must do to obtain your exaltation. You do have to earn the highest level. At least be honest about that.

I know you would like to continue the charade that we do works to earn salvation, so you can say things against us, but you are telling a falsehood, and you know it. I have told you many times before we do our good works out of love for God.

Tis not I who tells a falsehood. Do we need to revisit the lds laundry list for the umpteenth time?

Why do you do your good works? Or do you despise good works and do not do them for fear of being involved in a works based salvation?

I am saved because I accepted God's free gift the He offered out of love. I do my "good works" not because I have to check a box for my bishop like the lds do, but because I love him and do what he asks. Well, most of the time. I'm a sinner just like everyone else and yet Jesus still loves me, even when I fail to love him, or others, or do his will.

 

[Peter1000]

If the Mormon church separates itself ftom Christians, it is an abomination to God.

*

* an abomination to God, not of God.

And I testfy that Joseph Smith brought and still brings blindness to many people:

He lied when he taught:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right -- and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight....

"He again forbade me to join with any of them" (Joseph Smith - History 1:18-20).

He lied repeatedly.

That was his testimony to you. You can believe or not, but it will be known in the future as to whether he was right or not. It is just a matter of time. You will know almost instantly upon death, because JS taught that there is a world of spirits that is separate from heaven. Only the Church of Jesus Christ teaches this doctrine. When you die and go to the world of spirits and you find out that it is not heaven, then you will know that JS was a prophet of Jesus the Christ and it will be a aha moment for you.

 

[Peter1000]

Double speak. Forked tongue theology.

If this were true by itself, then that would be great. God gives us saving faith, we accept, the go do His will on earth. But you add works as part of your salvation.

Now you are being dishonest. The lds has a long laundry list of things you must do to obtain your exaltation. You do have to earn the highest level. At least be honest about that.

Tis not I who tells a falsehood. Do we need to revisit the lds laundry list for the umpteenth time?

I am saved because I accepted God's free gift the He offered out of love. I do my "good works" not because I have to check a box for my bishop like the lds do, but because I love him and do what he asks. Well, most of the time. I'm a sinner just like everyone else and yet Jesus still loves me, even when I fail to love him, or others, or do his will.

There is a long list of things that God has told us we need to do. You are right, but we do them because we love him and want to obey his wishes. Doing these things does not earn us salvation into his kingdom, it is only part of the salvation process. For example: if I were to go to the temple and receive my endowment, and then come out of the temple and commit adultery, and I repent not, my salvation will not be complete even if I check off all the boxes.

We must love God and do what he wishes us to do, and so we do them, one by one, as we grow in the gospel of Jesus Christ, using the grace that he gives us to grow our faith, and do the good works that he has before ordained for us to walk in. The process of salvation is to help us grow and develop and follow in the path that Jesus did. To become like him.

We love God so we believe in his Son.
We love God so we have faith in his Son.
We love God so we are baptized.
We love God so we are ordained into his priesthood.
We love God so we are married in him temple.
ETC., ETC., ETC.

 

[Rescued One]

That was his testimony to you. You can believe or not, but it will be known in the future as to whether he was right or not.

Whose testimony to me? Joseph Smith never spoke to me.
I follow the Savior right now. I believe His truth and will never follow Joseph Smith.

It is just a matter of time. You will know almost instantly upon death, because JS taught that there is a world of spirits that is separate from heaven. Only the Church of Jesus Christ teaches this doctrine. When you die and go to the world of spirits and you find out that it is not heaven, then you will know that JS was a prophet of Jesus the Christ and it will be a aha moment for you.

Jesus already taught me that Joseph Smith and Mormonism are an abomination to the True God.

 

[He is the way]

Whose testimony to me? Joseph Smith never spoke to me.
I follow the Savior right now. I believe His truth and will never follow Joseph Smith.



Jesus already taught me that Joseph Smith and Mormonism are an abomination to the True God.

It wasn't Jesus.

 

[BigDaddy4]

It wasn't Jesus.

Jesus, through His Holy Spirit, showed me the spiritual darkness that is the lds religion.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus, through His Holy Spirit, showed me the spiritual darkness that is the lds religion.

Jesus is the centerpiece of the Church of Jesus Christ. How could Jesus be involved in spiritual darkness?

 

[Peter1000]

Then the gift is not free if there are conditions attached to it.

I know you have read the NT. So reconcile these two scriptures:
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

AND
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In John 3:16, Jesus says all you have to do to be saved is believe in him.

Then in Matthew 6:14-15, Jesus says that in order to have your sins forgiven by God, you have to be willing to forgive all men their trespasses against you.

Does Matthew describe a "condition"? I would think that if God does not forgive your sins, because you did not forgive sins, it looks like you can believe in Jesus all you want, but you will not be in the kingdom of God, being full of sins.

So how do we reconcile Mathew 6 and John 3?

Here is how we do it: John 3 represents the beginning of the salvation process. You have to believe in order to go any further. Then if you truly believe you will learn all that is needed to have salvation.
So the next step after believing, is learning what Jesus wants you to do.
The next step is letting the grace of Jesus, given to you freely, lead you to apply what you have learned and becoming like Jesus, and doing the things that the bible clearly teaches us that he did. Just like Jesus could do nothing except what he saw his Father do.

Just one of those things that we learned Jesus did, he was willing to forgive all men their trespasses against him, even those that drove nails through the palms of his hands and crucified him. Even those people he forgave.

That is how we reconcile these 2 scriptures. If you believe, you will do the will of the Father and Jesus. We will not be deterred by some horror that if we do some good works we are trying to earn our way into heaven, and therefore we resist doing good works, which is the heart and soul of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So my motto is: 'Believe' John 3:16, 'and do' Matthew 6:14-15, perfect harmony.

 

[He is the way]

Jesus, through His Holy Spirit, showed me the spiritual darkness that is the lds religion.

That was not Jesus or the Holy Ghost either.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Jesus is the centerpiece of the Church of Jesus Christ. How could Jesus be involved in spiritual darkness?

Just because you attach his name to the name of your religion, does not mean he is involved in your religion. Matthew 7:21-23 shows that Jesus will say he never knew people who think they are doing his work.

I did not say Jesus was involved in spiritual darkness. I said he showed me your religion is spiritually dark.

 

[BigDaddy4]

So how do we reconcile Mathew 6 and John 3?

One's eternal destiny is not reliant on Matthew 6, so there's no reconciliation necessary for those who believe in John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24, Romans 6:23, etc. When the free gift is accepted, we are forgiven and reconciled to God. The lack of forgiveness in Matthew 6 means the relationship with God is damaged, not that one has lost their eternal destiny.

 

[He is the way]

One's eternal destiny is not reliant on Matthew 6, so there's no reconciliation necessary for those who believe in John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24, Romans 6:23, etc. When the free gift is accepted, we are forgiven and reconciled to God. The lack of forgiveness in Matthew 6 means the relationship with God is damaged, not that one has lost their eternal destiny.

Then everyone should believe in Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 14:12)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

(New Testament | Ephesians 2:10)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(New Testament | John 8:47)

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

(New Testament | James 1:12 - 22)

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

(New Testament | Matthew 4:4)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[Peter1000]

One's eternal destiny is not reliant on Matthew 6, so there's no reconciliation necessary for those who believe in John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24, Romans 6:23, etc. When the free gift is accepted, we are forgiven and reconciled to God. The lack of forgiveness in Matthew 6 means the relationship with God is damaged, not that one has lost their eternal destiny.

So IOW rip Matthew 6 out of the bible because grace has you covered? That sounds like an old fashioned indulgence. Believe and your past sins are automatically forgiven, and also your future sins are automatically forgiven, even if I choose not to forgive one that trespassed against me, the Father will not remember Matthew 6, so no problem. Good luck with that theology.

 

[Peter1000]

One's eternal destiny is not reliant on Matthew 6, so there's no reconciliation necessary for those who believe in John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24, Romans 6:23, etc. When the free gift is accepted, we are forgiven and reconciled to God. The lack of forgiveness in Matthew 6 means the relationship with God is damaged, not that one has lost their eternal destiny.

In Matthew 6, God did not say: If you do not forgive someone who trespasses against you, I will not remember it because of the grace of Jesus Christ.

He said: If you do not forgive all who trespass against you, I will not forgive your trespasses against me. Rethink how your eternal destiny will rely heavily on Matthew 6.

A true believer will obey Matthew 6 without a problem. One who is not a true believer will not.

 

[BigDaddy4]

So IOW rip Matthew 6 out of the bible because grace has you covered? That sounds like an old fashioned indulgence. Believe and your past sins are automatically forgiven, and also your future sins are automatically forgiven, even if I choose not to forgive one that trespassed against me, the Father will not remember Matthew 6, so no problem. Good luck with that theology.

You lack understanding of God's grace. Just because one does not forgive a trespass, does not mean they lose their salvation. That's just silly.

Case in point - A woman I was recently talking with at church has been a believer most all of her life. She is a former nurse. A patient died on her watch many years ago. A lawsuit was filed. During a deposition, the doctor suggested it may have been the nurse's fault for dispensing the incorrect dosage of medicine, even though she followed the correct prescription/procedure. Lawsuit was settled, doctor eventually retired and moved away, she eventually retired. She and the doctor continued to stay in touch over 10-15 years, but the issue was never discussed. After all those years, she held on to that bitterness. During our discussion, she realized she needed to forgive him for saying what he said.

In Christian theology, she is still a child of God and would have been saved if she had died during those 10-15 years. Her relationship with God during this time was broken, even if just a little bit. When she realized her need to forgive, and did, her burden was lifted and her relationship with God was restored. At least as far as it relates to that matter. There was much joy in her after that.

In your theology, she lived 10-15 years without salvation until she forgave the doctor. How sad.

Tell me, which theology most closely reflects the grace of God?

 

[BigDaddy4]

A true believer will obey Matthew 6 without a problem. One who is not a true believer will not.

What a bunch of bunk. Only Jesus knows who a "true believer" is. A "true believer" would not follow a false prophet or be a member of a church that teaches false doctrine.