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Neither does it declare they have been martyred, nor does it say they are the spirits of dead saints. If we study 1 thes. 4 & 5 and try to fit it somewhere in John's narrative of Revelation, the only place I can put it is just before the 6th seal. I am not alone in this either.It doesn't say resurrected from the dead in Revelation 7.
You're right, it does not say souls in Revelation 7. I was thinking of Revelation 6:9, because it is the same saints, who also have white robes.No they are not, they are in THE THRONE ROOM with God, see post #279.
Them in Revelation 6, seen in the 5th seal are the same ones in Revelation 7.Neither does it declare they have been martyred, nor does it say they are the spirits of dead saints. If we study 1 thes. 4 & 5 and try to fit it somewhere in John's narrative of Revelation, the only place I can put it is just before the 6th seal. I am not alone in this either.
WHAT ? { Crossover....ZOOMING BY....RT goes in for the 360 DUNK BOOM !! BOOM }
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
I am putting it together for you brother, stop fighting it. I mean that statement you made, reading the text I must say leaves me bewildered !! So they are ON EARTH even though the text says they are in the THRONE ROOM of God which is described in Rev. chapters 4 and 5.
LET US LOOK AT IT IN DEPTH: Discovery mode initiated.
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
There was no Chapters and verses, we are going back and forth between events in Heaven and the goings on down on earth as per the Throne room (Rev. 4 and 5) the Seals on earth (Rev. 6) the 144,000 Jews on earth (Rev. 7) the Multitude in Heaven (Rev. 7) the Trumpet Judgments on Earth (Rev. 8) etc. etc.
Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created
Rev. chapter 5
Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
I did this to let it reverberate through everyone's soul, their very fiber of being, where this is happening, this is the Bride in the throne room with God, the Elders, the Multitude that is seen in Rev. 5:9, before Jesus opens they seal they sing thou art Worthy who has REDEEMED us to OPEN THE SEALS. Worthy, worthy, worthy. Amen.
Then we see the Seals effect on the earth in Rev. ch. 6, we then see the 144,000 who I see as Israel Fleeing Judea to Petra, and God SEALING (Protecting them in Petra) and God saying HOLD BACK THE TRUMPET JUDGMENTS (hurt not the Earth, Seas or Trees) until my people are protected in Petra. The 144,000 are the DESCRIBED as coming from every tribe as in 12 x 12 x 12 which means ALL ISRAEL since 12 represents Fullness. So All the Jews who REPENT are 12 x 12 x 12. God protects them, just like is described in Rev. ch. 12 for 1260 days.
Then we see the THRONE ROOM again, the Bride is shown in full now, John has been in the THRONE ROOM the whole time !! Now he is told these in White Robes seen in Rev. 7:9-17 who are also IN THE THRONE ROOM, came out of the Great (2000 year Church Age Tribulation) Tribulation, just as John did who was there also. Its one continuous vision !! Then we see Rev. 8 and the Trumpet Judgments which brings plagues unto what ? The EARTH...SEAS...and TREES that Burn !! Hurt not the earth, sea nor trees until the 144,000 (Jews who Flee) are PROTECTED !!
Meaning they are HUMANS !! They need PROTECTING !! They are the Jews who Flee Judea.
And then as the 7th Seal was opened in Heaven there was silence (half hour) and the Angels were given 7 Trumpets, but WHY THE SILENCE for a time ? The prayers of the Saints were brought before the nostrils of God before His judgments were sent forth,
Rev. 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Everything John has seen has been from THE THRONE ROOM of God since Rev. 4:1, he is a part of the Bride, it is the Bride in Heaven in Rev. 7, no one else !! Amen.
YOu cannot prove that by scripture: you can only guess with no basis. It is a poor guess. The martyrs have been told they must wait for the final martyr before judgment comes. In Revelation judgment begins at the 6th seal - or if you prefer, the 7th seal. The rapture then will come just before that.Them in Revelation 6, seen in the 5th seal are the same ones in Revelation 7.
It is before the sixth seal event, that they are slain for the word of God. I agree that is what the text indicates.
But you are wrong, because heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7.Everything John has seen has been from THE THRONE ROOM of God since Rev. 4:1, he is a part of the Bride, it is the Bride in Heaven in Rev. 7, no one else !! Amen.
What contrived rubbish! Paul says no such thing.in 1 Thes. 5. Paul tells us the rapture will trigger the DAY and His wrath, putting the rapture then just a moment before the 6th seal
Some people ignore that John numbered the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials for sequencing. They imaging they can rearrange what John wrote - even rearrange what John numbered! Outside of what John numbered, the Holy Spirit, guiding John, set the chronology.
I have heard wild theories before, but this one.....how can anybody be so wrong and think they are right? But you do.But you are wrong, because heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7.
God's Throne and the attendants can be seen by those on earth. Ezekiel and Stephen saw it. Yes: John was in heaven writing Revelation, but viewing an earthly scene.
Do you deny the Jesus said several times that no one goes to heaven?
Your 'rapture to heaven' belief is a false as a tin dog. Try believing Bible truth for a change, its better for your soul.
OF COURSE they were and are in agreement, because the Holy Spirit guided John. Whoever said they weren't? However, some people imagine Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture in His gathering! That is a WILD imagination. This Mat. 24 gathering will be 7 plus years after Paul's gathering, and it will about a different group of people.Some people ignore Rev 11 and Rev 14. The also deny that Jesus and John were in agreement about endtimes which is especially puzzling.
Oh yes, He does. You just don't understand Paul. Sorry, but the 6th seal will be opened by Jesus just a moment after the rapture.What contrived rubbish! Paul says no such thing.
The Sixth Seal will be triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12
Somehow no matter how simple things are, you just can't keep up. I asked you to pay attention so you wouldn't make these kind of comments in ignorance. Try to focus................You are the first and only one I have ever read after that imagines that God gets angry, then gets over it, they gets angry again!
Somehow no matter how simple things are, you just can't keep up. I asked you to pay attention so you wouldn't make these kind of comments in ignorance. Try to focus................
Chapter 1
There was a terrible storm on the way to the World Super Bowl. Many cars were swept off the road by the flooding. The game began after the players gathered at midfield to toss a coin. The first cheerleader cheered and the score was 6 to nothing. The second cheerleader cheered and the score was 13 to nothing. The third cheerleader cheered and the score was 20 to nothing. The cars were stuck in the parking lot for hours. There was honking, and beeping and lights flashing and punches thrown.
Chapter 2
It was ten miles to the stadium from the river. The tornadoes came one after another and destroyed may cars. I saw the kickoff and the team in white ran hard and fast. The first cheerleader waved her pom-poms and the score was 7 to nothing. The team in green could not move the move the football. The second cheerleader waved her pom-poms and the score was 14 for the white team and nothing for the green. Then the third cheerleader came forward and vigorously waved her pom-poms and the score was 21 to nothing. The game was over and there was honking and beeping and lights flashing. And many were knocked to the ground because of the punches thrown.
So when you read these two chapters you would claim there are two different games. You would say look at the score.....in one game it says the score is 6 to nothing when the cheerleader cheers.........but in the other game the score is 7 to nothing when the cheerleader waves her pom-poms. Completely different game. And look at the tornadoes that are destroying the cars. You would say.....you are trying to put the tornadoes before the World Super Bowl...when we can clearly see they are after the World Super Bowl. Any one attempting to change the order of an example post in the Christian Forum will fail.
I, however, realize that we are looking at the same game in both chapters. The reason that the first cheerleader cheers when the score is 6 to nothing is because she cheers when the touchdown is scored. However, in the other view the cheerleader does not wave her pom-poms until the extra point is kicked at 7 to nothing. And the same thing happens after the second touchdown and the third touchdown. We are looking at the same game in both chapter 1 and chapter 2 even though the score is different and you have one group of of cheerleaders cheering and one group in another view waving pom-poms. Additionally before the game there is flooding in one view and tornadoes in another view. It's the same game.........it's the same storm before the game, it just that in one view you see flooding and in the other view you see tornadoes. I am not trying to rearrange the chapters I am overlaying the chapters where they go.
I know the odds of you grasping this are slight.......but that's whats going on. I am not rearranging anything. So your comment about God getting angry and getting over it and getting angry again.......are left wanting.
Since them in Revelation 6, the 5th seal ,are told to wait, until joined by their fellowservants and brothers, it is an indication that they are there before the great tribulation is over.YOu cannot prove that by scripture: you can only guess with no basis. It is a poor guess. The martyrs have been told they must wait for the final martyr before judgment comes. In Revelation judgment begins at the 6th seal - or if you prefer, the 7th seal. The rapture then will come just before that.
Again there is no hint whatsoever that this great crowd has been martyred.
Just so you know, there IS NO overlapping. It is all a figment of your imagination.
Sorry, but it is an indication they are church age martyrs. Any 70th week martyr would know they had only 7 years or less to wait out. You will probably have to wait for heaven before you learn the truth. This is not a real important issue.Since them in Revelation 6, the 5th seal ,are told to wait, until joined by their fellowservants and brothers, it is an indication that they are there before the great tribulation is over.
The great tribulation will be 1335 days long.
The six seals basically describes the 7 year 70th week as segments.
Yes, what you suggested is just MORE imagination.
Well, Revelation 16:15-16 is at Jesus's Second Coming. It is not the timing rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonian4:15-18, however.Yes, what you suggested is just MORE imagination.
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