Date of authorship of Revelation

[Jipsah]

And if we remain consistent in our applied hermeneutics, we won't artificially bring in a nod to gematria and assume that this is the interpretive key of the book when it might very well not be.

Worth Price Charged opinion here. The Revelator seems to assume that his readers will know to whom "666" refers. IMO that lends credibility to the idea that it's simply an encoded name used to keep the the letter itself from becoming a basis for arrest/perscution/execution.

 

[samaus123456789]

Worth Price Charged opinion here. The Revelator seems to assume that his readers will know to whom "666" refers. IMO that lends credibility to the idea that it's simply an encoded name used to keep the the letter itself from becoming a basis for arrest/perscution/execution.

I made a post about it. It links back to Solomon 3 times via 666, and also wisdom, and understanding which links to the modern country "Israel", and the mark of the beast is the hexagram. It is in heavy code so that it can only be unlocked by someone that studies the bible a lot, studies the life of Solomon deliberately, and specifically, is willing to follow the text of the bible wherever it leads, and is willing to say what the bible says even if it is unpopular amongst other Christians. Also if it said in plain language "the mark of the beast is the hexagram on the future country Israel" the Christian Zionists would mock the bible, and say it has been corrupted that is not what it said originally.

 

[Jipsah]

T

But then again i tend to ihinkI made a post about it. It links back to Solomon 3 times via 666, and also wisdom, and understanding which links to the modern country "Israel", and the mark of the beast is the hexagram. It is in heavy code so that it can only be unlocked by someone that studies the bible a lot, studies the life of Solomon deliberately, and specifically, is willing to follow the text of the bible wherever it leads, and is willing to say what the bible says even if it is unpopular amongst other Christians. Also if it said in plain language "the mark of the beast is the hexagram on the future country Israel" the Christian Zionists would mock the bible, and say it has been corrupted that is not what it said originally.

That kinda sounds " too clever by half", but then again I tend to think most explanations of Revelation are.

 

[samaus123456789]

The beast country is "israel". Mystery Babylon is physical Jerusalem once it is world capital. Revelation 13 mark of the beast is the hexagram.

 

[samaus123456789]

Even though true I am not anti-Semitic . There are many scriptures to prove Jerusalem is the harlot city. Revelation 11:8 Too many people today don’t realize that if that day is not Far off they will be worshiping the man of sin. Revelation 12:9 People refuse to believe that Satan has indeed deceived the world. The big revival they say is coming is when they are worshiping the man of sin. Then if you try to warn them you make yourself a target.

Yes the Christian zionists. They don't like to hear anything contrary to what they believe. It is hard to talk to them.

 

[Jipsah]

Ah, that's what I love about the Revelation. Everyone who reads it understands it perfectly (just ask 'em!), but no two of them agree. It's like a biblical Rohrschach inkblot.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Worth Price Charged opinion here. The Revelator seems to assume that his readers will know to whom "666" refers. IMO that lends credibility to the idea that it's simply an encoded name used to keep the the letter itself from becoming a basis for arrest/perscution/execution.

I don't think so, but I'm not going to argue about it. I have my hermeneutical reasons, and if other people don't want to engage them, so be it. Notice here, too, that I'm not here to tell other, fellow Christians what to believe "correctly." So, no shirt off my Christian back if they disagree with me, brother Jipsah.

 

[Jan001]

I a

Yes I believe it was Paul now, and can not be referring to someone else.
Claudius was known to kick people out (Acts 18 2), and exile people (Slavonic Josephus). Nero was known to kill people. One of those churches in Revelation (the rich one) was hit with a big earthquake 60 AD although they recovered by their own finances without need of government aid (Tacitus), and they would of rebuilt quickly by the sound of it. I want to date Revelation as early as possible because chapter 1-12 was about to come on the whole world (of first century Israel- Judea, Samaria, Galilee although mainly Judea), and those first Christians needed time to read the book, and understand ch 1-12 was about them. So I believe it was written 41-49 AD. Nero is too late I feel.

I agree that Revelation, chapters 1-12, was imperative for the first-century Christians to read and understand, as was Matthew 24, chapters 1-35.

The heaven and the earth of the Jews (their temple) literally passed away in 70 AD.

Nero committed suicide on June 9, 68 AD. He killed many Christians. He was an antichrist.

I think the final antichrist, aka the man of sin, will pretend to be the Jewish Messiah and that he will literally kill Enoch and Elijah, who have come back to earth to witness to the Jews that Jesus Christ is their true Messiah.

 

[Jan001]

Even though true I am not anti-Semitic . There are many scriptures to prove Jerusalem is the harlot city. Revelation 11:8 Too many people today don’t realize that if that day is not Far off they will be worshiping the man of sin. Revelation 12:9 People refuse to believe that Satan has indeed deceived the world. The big revival they say is coming is when they are worshiping the man of sin. Then if you try to warn them you make yourself a target.

I agree; the great city, the harlot, is Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8
and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

Luke 13:22-24
He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Few people will be approved to inherit eternal life. Many people will not.

 

[samaus123456789]

I a

I agree that Revelation, chapters 1-12, was imperative for the first-century Christians to read and understand, as was Matthew 24, chapters 1-35.

The heaven and the earth of the Jews (their temple) literally passed away in 70 AD.

Nero committed suicide on June 9, 68 AD. He killed many Christians. He was an antichrist.

I think the final antichrist, aka the man of sin, will pretend to be the Jewish Messiah and that he will literally kill Enoch and Elijah, who have come back to earth to witness to the Jews that Jesus Christ is their true Messiah.

The man of sin had to happen before 70 AD. He was going to sit in the physical temple of God which stopped existing 70 AD. If a replica OT temple was built the God of Abrahams spirit would not be in it so it can not be a temple of God. It was likely one of the zealots that put a statue of himself in it by the sound of it. I made a post on Daniel 9 how it ended 70 AD Daniel 9 ended 70 AD . Rev 1-12 happened 70 AD so the two witnesses happened 70 AD. Yes according to Gospel of Nicodemus, History of Joseph the Carpenter, and Apocalypse of Peter the two witnesses were going to be Enoch, and Eiljah. All 3 texts are internally written pre 70 AD, and have a prophecy of those 2 witnesses looking forward not written past tense. All 3 texts are apocrypha inspired for the wise only. Gospel of Nic, and History of Joseph are the most important two out of them. Josephus described this guy
Jesus ben Ananias - Wikipedia

which is interesting although it does not match Rev 11. So that is not one of the two witnesses but it gives an idea of what they might of looked like to outsiders- crazy people.

 

[samaus123456789]

Are you aware that in Israel today there is a very popular movement to build the third temple ? The ”Temple Mount Faithful “ is just one group and certain prominent members of the Israeli government along with some false Christians are involved. Google the information about this, you may find it interesting.

Yes. The church was the third temple born in a day on Pentecost so the believers body has the holy spirit now. There is no clear cut mentions of a third physical temple anywhere in the bible. The one in Rev 11 was the one being destroyed 70 AD (Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad Rev 13-22 is future). And the other ones in Math were also before 70 AD. Mystery Babylon is physical Jerusalem (ask chat gpt to show how Rev 17, 18 compares to Jerusalem in theOT) so maybe they will build a replica temple who knows. It is the ultimate insult to God to think sacrificing animals in a temple can get forgiveness of sins. God hates that country.

 

[samaus123456789]

There seems to be a lot of people here that believe the temple in Revelation is the second temple.

Yeh it was the second temple destroyed 66-70 AD . I will make a post about Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad

 

[samaus123456789]

Before anyone becomes a Christian they are “in the world“ , they are unconverted and still in their sins. The scripture says all have sinned, just what is it that determines this ? What is that we have done that makes us sinners ? Scripture says we need Jesus to have these sins forgiven, so we need Jesus to take away whatever it is that says we are sinners. I know we are saved from our sins but what is it that calls us sinners
because that is what we need saved from. All people need saved from whatever it is that calls us sinners. People in the past, the present and the future all need saved from whatever it is that says we are sinners.
Sure, we need saved from sin but sin is the result of whatever it is that defines what sin is. What is it ?

Adam, and Eve the first sinners. God created everything good and very good so no disease or pain or death but they broke Gods one command to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good, and evil so God cursed the world in Genesis 3. All humans after them have 'sinned'. Creation was around 5500 BC. Creation . com and answers in genesis have articles about creation vs evolution biology fossils etc if someone has not looked into that already.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

So apparently Gods perfect law involves sacrificing animals on a temple mount temple in Judea, not wearing mixed fabrics, stoning other people to death, not eating shellfish, not once lying. So everyone has broken those laws. And it was saying even if someone followed all it still doesn't make them righteous only belief in Jesus death burial resurrection does. Eventually in Revelation 20-22 in the future in the new Jerusalem there is no more curse from Genesis 3. Believers have glorified bodies not ones that get sick and worn out like on earth, and believers life forever with God Jesus angels etc.

1 Corinthians 2 9 No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him

1. The Origin of Human Sin — Adam’s Fall​

Genesis 3 (the entire chapter)​

Human sin begins when Adam and Eve disobey God.

Specific verse describing the consequence:

Genesis 3:6​

“The woman took of the fruit… and ate; she also gave to her husband… and he ate.”

This act introduces sin and death into human history.

Genesis 3:17​

“Because you have eaten… cursed is the ground because of you.”

---

2. All Humans Inherit a Sinful Nature​

Psalm 51:5​

“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

Shows sin is not just actions — it’s a condition.

Job 14:4​

“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one.”

This describes inherited impurity.

---

⚖️ 3. All People Commit Sin​

Romans 3:23​

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

This is the clearest universal statement.

1 Kings 8:46​

“There is no one who does not sin.”

Even the Old Testament states universal sinfulness.

Ecclesiastes 7:20​

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.”

---

4. Adam as the Source of Human Sin​

Paul’s theology directly connects all human sin to Adam’s act.

Romans 5:12​

“Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.”

Romans 5:19​

“Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners.”

This explains why we are sinners — we inherited Adam’s fallen condition.

---

5. Sin is Universal in the Human Heart​

Jeremiah 17:9​

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.”

Mark 7:21–23​

Jesus explains sin comes from within:

“From within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts… All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

---

6. Humans Cannot Attain Righteousness on Their Own​

Isaiah 64:6​

“All our righteous acts are like filthy rags.”

Even our best deeds cannot erase our sinfulness.

---

⭐ Summary: Why Humans Are Sinners (Biblical Teaching)​

1. Adam’s original rebellion brought sin into the human race (Rom. 5:12).
2. All humans inherit a sinful nature (Ps. 51:5).
3. All commit personal sins (Rom. 3:23).
4. The human heart is corrupted and produces evil (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21).
5. No one is righteous by themselves (Eccl. 7:20; Isa. 64:6).

Put together:

We are sinners both by inheritance and by personal choice.

 

[Jan001]

Jeremiah 3:3 KJV A harlots forehead, Revelation 17:5 I am thinking that the worlds churches will be led by the man of sin into Judaizing, basically denying Christ. They already see Israel as GODS only chosen people and some go as far as using things out of the law to increase church revenue, tithes and offerings. With this mindset already in place it would not be difficult for the false prophet to deceive them by calling fire down from heaven to burn the sacrifices at the temple.

I agree that Judaizers will always be among us.

I think the final false prophet will be the leader of the counterfeit worldwide "Christian" church, claiming to be Christian but denying Jesus Christ the Lord by their works/actions. Titus 1:16

I don't think the final false prophet would have the power to actually cause fire to come down from heaven. 1 Kings 18:30-39
Perhaps he will manipulate natural elements to make it appear as if he is doing this.

 

[Jan001]

The man of sin had to happen before 70 AD. He was going to sit in the physical temple of God which stopped existing 70 AD. If a replica OT temple was built the God of Abrahams spirit would not be in it so it can not be a temple of God. It was likely one of the zealots that put a statue of himself in it by the sound of it. I made a post on Daniel 9 how it ended 70 AD Daniel 9 ended 70 AD . Rev 1-12 happened 70 AD so the two witnesses happened 70 AD. Yes according to Gospel of Nicodemus, History of Joseph the Carpenter, and Apocalypse of Peter the two witnesses were going to be Enoch, and Eiljah. All 3 texts are internally written pre 70 AD, and have a prophecy of those 2 witnesses looking forward not written past tense. All 3 texts are apocrypha inspired for the wise only. Gospel of Nic, and History of Joseph are the most important two out of them. Josephus described this guy
Jesus ben Ananias - Wikipedia

which is interesting although it does not match Rev 11. So that is not one of the two witnesses but it gives an idea of what they might of looked like to outsiders- crazy people.

These extrabiblical narratives are not actually Scripture; otherwise, they would have been included in the canons. The early church fathers, with the help of the Holy Spirit, determined which of the many early church writings were Scripture and which were not.

If the preterist view is the correct view:

If this man of sin lived in the first century AD., he was most likely John of Gischala.

AI summary: The "man of sin" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a figure associated with the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, according to preterist interpretations. One prominent candidate is John of Gischala, a Jewish Zealot leader who rose to power during the Great Revolt against Rome. He is believed to have fulfilled the prophecy by throwing off the Mosaic Law, inciting civil war, famine, and crime in Jerusalem, and positioning himself as a despotic ruler who symbolically and literally "took his seat in the Temple of God," exalting himself over the Temple’s objects of worship. His actions are seen as aligning with the description of the man of sin who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God.

It seems to me that these Thessalonians and the other first-century Christians could have been the intended audience for the actual fulfillment of the following:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Is the breath of his mouth actually the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Does his appearing and his coming mean the appearance and the power of the Roman armies? Luke 21:20

It seems to me that it is St. Michael, the archangel, who will bind the final antichrist and false prophet and cast them into the lake of fire. St. Michael is of the same angelic hierarchy as Satan, and so he will defeat Satan at the sound of the last trumpet.

So much fun to speculate!

What is important, though, is to ask ourselves, "Am I ready to meet the Lord right now?" If our answer is "no," then we need to repent and confess our sins so that Jesus will forgive us and we will become God's friend once again.

 

[samaus123456789]

These extrabiblical narratives are not actually Scripture; otherwise, they would have been included in the canons. The early church fathers, with the help of the Holy Spirit, determined which of the many early church writings were Scripture and which were not.

If the preterist view is the correct view:

If this man of sin lived in the first century AD., he was most likely John of Gischala.

AI summary: The "man of sin" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a figure associated with the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, according to preterist interpretations. One prominent candidate is John of Gischala, a Jewish Zealot leader who rose to power during the Great Revolt against Rome. He is believed to have fulfilled the prophecy by throwing off the Mosaic Law, inciting civil war, famine, and crime in Jerusalem, and positioning himself as a despotic ruler who symbolically and literally "took his seat in the Temple of God," exalting himself over the Temple’s objects of worship. His actions are seen as aligning with the description of the man of sin who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God.

It seems to me that these Thessalonians and the other first-century Christians could have been the intended audience for the actual fulfillment of the following:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Is the breath of his mouth actually the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Does his appearing and his coming mean the appearance and the power of the Roman armies? Luke 21:20

It seems to me that it is St. Michael, the archangel, who will bind the final antichrist and false prophet and cast them into the lake of fire. St. Michael is of the same angelic hierarchy as Satan, and so he will defeat Satan at the sound of the last trumpet.

So much fun to speculate!

What is important, though, is to ask ourselves, "Am I ready to meet the Lord right now?" If our answer is "no," then we need to repent and confess our sins so that Jesus will forgive us and we will become God's friend once again.

Yes History of Joseph, and Gospel of Nic are inspired scripture written when they said they were. They are only for the wise same with 1Enoch, and others. God never intended them to be in the main canon otherwise swine might stumble across them accidentally. The main canon is for everyone unworthy (swine) or worthy where as some extra books which are inspired are hidden (apocrypha) from swine, and revealed to the humble. God thought there was too much valuable information in them to have them public, and people would mock it so he hid them ie excluded them from the main canon.

That is interesting breath of his mouth could be the Roman armies, I never thought of that. otherwise Jesus must of killed that zealot around 70 AD when he came back. Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad rev 13-22 is future.


Anti Christ in John was 70 AD too it says it was the final hour (of the temple still standing, and the Mosaic covenant). There had been anti christs when that was written pre 70 AD there was going to be some major one at that time, and there will be more in the future.
I have posts on the 2 canons, rev 1-12, and judes quotation of enoch about 70 ad/second coming.