When we observe the natural processes that produce them.
I have never seen a tv or computer designed or constructed. Have you? We observe how we as designers produce them and what they appear like as a result. If we were to go to a deserted island and we found a structure that had a roof made from leaves and was propped up with sticks that were tied with vines and inside was a bed made from more leaves and nothing else would you think this was designed or not?
Plastic, for one. I'm not talking about the atoms they are made of.
I'm talking about the molecules they form.
Synthetic plastics typically have high molecular weight which means that each molecule can have thousands of atoms bound together. The plastics we use are manufactured to mimic those things in nature that have that same molecular weight. Such as wood, horn and rosin to name a few. The plastic is produced by the conversion of natural products from nature or chemicals therein such as natural gas, oil or coal.
Plastics are made up of natural elements like carbon which need stars to exist which need fine tuning to exist.
As far as I know, plastic is not a material that exists in nature without human manufacturing.
It is designed to function the same as those elements in nature that have the same high molecule weight.
That is patently false. When the universe came into existence, there was NO matter. It was far to hot for that.
Nothing existed when the Big Band happened but it is true that all that exists today from all the materials created in that moment, ourselves included.
Next, there are plenty of elements (like carbon etc) that are forged inside the cores of stars. These stars explode and spread that newly forged matter out in the cosmos. In that explosion, even heavier elements like are forged.
Very true and if not for fine tuning stars could not have formed and life could not have evolved.
It's not a red herring. It's simply what we would need to try and draw the conclusions that you are drawing here. How can we determine if something is one way or the other if we have a set of exactly 1?
Do we need more than one watch to know if it is designed?
I disagree that the universe appears designed. It doesn't appear designed at all to me.
That is due to the fact that you are either unaware or ignorant of fine tuning that produces the appearance.
Or... you are just expressing a subjective opinion which is loaded with your a priori beliefs... One that requires no validation or explanation or contemplation from us. Your opinion is just that... an opinion.
Lets get this straight. The fine tuning of the universe is an established fact, the finished product appears designed. These two things are confirmed by scientists. The first is determined by measurement, testing and observation. The second, not based on any biased religious beliefs, is that this observation appears to be an intentional phenomena with the purpose for life to exist. The subjective part of this is what is used to explain the phenomena.
Me no care. Come back when you have evidence that can be objectively evaluated.
Fine tuning is the evidence.
I'm sure a geologist would be able to give you over 100 environmental factors and features that had to be present at the right time in the right circumstances to get to end up with a specific rock.
OH so you trust geologists to conclude that over 100 environmental factors and features have to be present at the right time in the right circumstances to end up with a specific rock but you dismiss astrophysicists conclusions that the universe is fine tuned to such a degree as to specifically end up with life and that it gives the appearance of an intent for a purpose?
The problem is that you don't care about random rocks. You don't feel the need to engage in teleological fallacies concerning those rocks. But you do feel the need to assume that you as a human are special and the center and reason for existence.
I have never claimed in this entire thread that human life is special. All life exists due to fine tuning. I totally subjectively believe that to be the case, but that is not what I am arguing for in this thread.
yes, yes... we've been over that. If things would be different, then things would be different.
Like I said, you can stick your head into the sand if you wish. It doesn't change the fact that fine tuning is real and it produces the appearance of design due to its appearance of an intent for a purpose.
The same goes for the rock. If the things would have been different then a certain specific rock wouldn't be the way it is. Big whoop.
Right, and if you want to deny scientific evidence...big whoop. Scientists take it more seriously.
The only reason why we would recognise that as designed is because.... are you ready for it.... we have an enormous set of examples of english words, we even invented the language.
Nonsensical.
It again comes down to being able to contrast it to other patterns.
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We recognize design, scientists without religious biases recognize that the universe appears to have been "fixed" a "put up job" and the appearance of design is overwhelming. Their words not mine. Their assessment of the phenomena not mine.
Where the line is drawn comes down to is this appearance due to actual design or not. That is the question. You can deny if you wish that this appearance of design is actual which is your right and based on your own subjective opinion and I will claim that in all circumstances that when something looks designed it is very possible it is.
