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Would complexity be an indication of design? I think it would.
Do you have an example of a universe that is the product of natural processes or even know how natural processes would go about designing a universe from nothing?
So I guess we are back to the original issue.
The origins of the universe are unkown, ED.
Don't try to turn it around.
This entire conversation is about certain religious people claiming design (by their deity of choice, off course) and other people responding to those claims.
Having said that, the universe being the result of natural processes is more likely then it being the result of supernatural processes. For the simple reason that we know natural processes exist, but we can't say the same for supernatural processes (or anything else).
Actually it is less likely that natural processes are the cause.
If you are going to go with natural processes then you will have to also concede that natural processes are responsible for the creation of ipods, computers and airplanes through it's process.
Why?
Why?
If you can't work those two things out for yourself, I can see where you are confused about other things.
Why?ED said:Actually it is less likely that natural processes are the cause
ED said:If you are going to go with natural processes then you will have to also concede that natural processes are responsible for the creation of ipods, computers and airplanes through it's process
How does this relate to the experts who have used scientific methods to determine fine tuning and how that has the appearance of design?
Do you feel the scientists are doing this?
-_- fine tuning has not been determined. If it actually had been, I wouldn't be debating you about it.
Everyone has bias to an extent
-_- fine tuning has not been determined. If it actually had been, I wouldn't be debating you about it.
Are we discussing consumer electronics or universes?
Do you have an example of a universe that is the product of natural processes or even know how natural processes would go about designing a universe from nothing?
So I guess we are back to the original issue.
What is more complex, bricks randomly strewn into a pile or a brick wall?Would complexity be an indication of design? I think it would.
Those things don't merely "appear" to be designed. They ARE designed. And the reason we know that is not even because we know of factories and actual human designers that design and produce these things.
We know it purely by contrasting it with other things in the world, things that we know are designed and things that we know are not designed.
Computers, for example, hold plenty of materials that don't exist in nature.
In order to draw the same conclusion for the entire universe, we would have to be able to contrast it with other universes - preferably universes that ARE designed and universes that aren't.
Are random rocks designed? Do they appear to be?
Are you sure I can't come up with random natural rocks that appear designed?
Yes.
However...
- "appearance of X" is subjective to the observer. What appears to be designed to you, might not appear to be designed to me.
- your a priori religious beliefs require you to believe the universe is designed even before the question is asked. So it's not surprising to me that you take the position that you do.
What is more complex, bricks randomly strewn into a pile or a brick wall?
No, not at all.
First, because complexity is rather subjective. What is complex to you might not be complex to me.
Secondly, complexity can be natural. 2 H atoms and an O atom by themselves are relatively simple. After a natural reaction, they form the more complex H2O molecule.
The origins of the universe are unkown, ED.
Don't try to turn it around.
This entire conversation is about certain religious people claiming design (by their deity of choice, off course) and other people responding to those claims.
Having said that, the universe being the result of natural processes is more likely then it being the result of supernatural processes. For the simple reason that we know natural processes exist, but we can't say the same for supernatural processes (or anything else).
Not necessarily.
I can design a rock as a piece of art and it could very well be indistinguishable from a non-designed rock.
Bricks randomly strewn into a pile is a more complex system than a brick wall. A brick wall can be accurately represented with a simpler mathematical formula than randomly placed bricks.What say you?
Bricks randomly strewn into a pile is a more complex system than a brick wall. A brick wall can be accurately represented with a simpler mathematical formula than randomly placed bricks.
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