Darkness falls ...

[Guywiththehead]

TheListener, how do you explain how, in America, atheists have the lowest average divorce rates and commit less crime than theists? (Atheists make up 2% of all prisoners and 8-16% of the American population.) Thinking that the only way morality can be present is with religion is completely absurd, especially when the majority of theists barely pay attention to the Bible's morals.

 

[Sanguine]

Should I have one of Adolf Hitler?

Anything to get rid of Norm.

 

[ebia]

School curriculums in the state are likewise set by educators. The problem is -- and it's a problem you've got as well, if you haven't noticed -- our educators have forgotten how to educate, and they're claiming they won't be doing their jobs properly if they don't teach our kids nonsense as well as knowledge.

I'm never very happy critisizing another country, but I can't really avoid agreeing with, and mentioning that neither your education system nor your teacher training systems have a very good reputation internationally.

At what level are your curriculums decided, how much is determined at state level, locally and within individual schools, and how much say do parents and other non-educators have within that process? My understanding from what people have been saying in other threads is that stuff is set at some kind of local school-board level. There is no equivalent of that here - the states set the guidelines (mostly in quite general terms up till year 10, and quite specific terms for years 11 & 12) and schools fill in the details.

If anyone's interested, this is what the CSF II (The Victorian Curriculum & Standards Framework) says for Biological Sciences at level 6 (approx. years 9 & 10):
http://csf.vcaa.vic.edu.au/sc/liscbs06.htm

 

[ebia]

TheListener, I know that we nominally speak the same language, but what the [expletive deleted] is "footy"?

(Australian Rules) Football.

 

[TheListener]

(Australian Rules) Football.

You must be from Melbourne.

Here in Sydney footy is NRL (AKA rugby)

 

[TheListener]

TheListener, how do you explain how, in America, atheists have the lowest average divorce rates and commit less crime than theists? (Atheists make up 2% of all prisoners and 8-16% of the American population.) Thinking that the only way morality can be present is with religion is completely absurd, especially when the majority of theists barely pay attention to the Bible's morals.

Would you be kind enough to quote where you got your statistics from?

 

[David Gould]

Your avatar angers and saddens me. Should I have one of Adolf Hitler?

Peace.

You do not like the Soviet propoganda art? I think some of it is fabulous stuff.

 

[TheListener]

You do not like the Soviet propoganda art? I think some of it is fabulous stuff.

http://www.communistsforkerry.com/

Enjoy!

 

[ebia]

You must be from Melbourne.

Country Vic. NSW is about 10km away.

 

[David Gould]

http://www.communistsforkerry.com/

Enjoy!

ROFLMAO

 

[David Gould]

That is a good link for Victorian education standards. But is it set by educators or can it be set by, for example, politicians directing the educators? In other words, if enough people wanted it, could that be altered to include ID? My suspicion is that without constitutional protection, legislators could shape that to be what they want it to be. And money - and, more importantly, votes - can buy a whole lot of legislators ...

If I was the ID movement, I would get hundreds of fundamentalists to move to marginal electorates.

 

[Dannager]

Would you be kind enough to quote where you got your statistics from?

Could you provide a source for the statistics cited in the following claim you made?

Go and have a chat with some survivors of rape and survivors of childhood abuse.

A vast majority go unreported.

Go and have a chat with some police officers.

Most offences are either unproved so the assailant walks or they get a slap on the wrist (Section 10 with a good behaviour bond in NSW).

If the victim is a child %99.9 chance the pedophile will get away with it.

You obviously haven't heard everything.

Furthermore, could you please provide evidence of a causative relationship between agnosticism or atheism and increased criminal activity? Heck, even a correlative relationship would be a start. Until you've shown one, your information is a bunch of unconnected statistics lacking relevance to the topic at hand.

 

[TheListener]

[Edit]

 

[Electric Sceptic]

You'll need to grow up a bit more to understand these things.

You'll need to drop the patronising attitude if you want people to take you seriously.

A non-religious person may see nothing wrong with sexual immorality but we have such a generation being raised at the moment that the future will hold incredible evil.

Christians are NOT exempt from falling into this nor are they exempt from being victims.

It's the world we live in.

Again, I tell you, you need to grow up a bit more to understand this.

This just dodges the question. You've made the claim that without god, immorality is the result. Youv'e been asked to show ANY sort of correlation between godlessness (ie., atheism) and immorality. Can you do so, or not? (Hint: some numbers showing that a high proportion of atheists are in jail would be good; numbers showing that more secular nations have higher crime rates would also work).

 

[TheListener]

You'll need to drop the patronising attitude if you want people to take you seriously.

I apologise, peoples ignorance to that topic pushes my buttons.

This just dodges the question. You've made the claim that without god, immorality is the result. Youv'e been asked to show ANY sort of correlation between godlessness (ie., atheism) and immorality. Can you do so, or not? (Hint: some numbers showing that a high proportion of atheists are in jail would be good; numbers showing that more secular nations have higher crime rates would also work).

And I ask you in return, is it only crime rates that show godlessness? I put it to you sexual immorality, divorce rates, alcohol abuse rates, homosexuality, greed etc should also be included which puts pretty much the whole world in the 'godless' category. Which is exactly why the whole world desperately needs a saviour.

But if you don't see a problem with these things then your only benchmark is criminals in prison. I can't give you an answer to that one.

 

[nvxplorer]

A non-religious person may see nothing wrong with sexual immorality but we have such a generation being raised at the moment that the future will hold incredible evil.

What is sexual immorality, and how does it threaten society?

Is prostitution immoral and threatening? If so, why is my city the #1 place to do business in the US?

Christians are NOT exempt from falling into this nor are they exempt from being victims.

So then, your claim as to the actions of a non-religious person is meaningless.

It's the world we live in.

This is the point that you seem to be missing.

Again, I tell you, you need to grow up a bit more to understand this.

How grown must I be? I get my AARP card in two years. Is that grown enough?

 

[TheListener]

What is sexual immorality, and how does it threaten society?

Is prostitution immoral and threatening? If so, why is my city the #1 place to do business in the US?

What does prostitution do to harm a society? Are you seriously asking me that?

 

[Electric Sceptic]

I apologise, peoples ignorance to that topic pushes my buttons.

By "ignorance" you mean "disagreement with me" and "asking me to support my claims".

And I ask you in return, is it only crime rates that show godlessness? I put it to you sexual immorality, divorce rates, alcohol abuse rates, homosexuality, greed etc should also be included

Great, then show that any of THESE things are more prevalent among the 'godless'. In short - support your claims. So far you haven't even attempted to do so.

What does prostitution do to harm a society? Are you seriously asking me that?

If he's not, I will. What does prostitution do to harm a society?

 

[nvxplorer]

I apologise, peoples ignorance to that topic pushes my buttons.



And I ask you in return, is it only crime rates that show godlessness? I put it to you sexual immorality, divorce rates, alcohol abuse rates, homosexuality, greed etc should also be included which puts pretty much the whole world in the 'godless' category. Which is exactly why the whole world desperately needs a saviour.

But if you don't see a problem with these things then your only benchmark is criminals in prison. I can't give you an answer to that one.

US divorce rates.

Jews: 30%
Born again: 27%
Other Christian: 24%
Atheist/agnostic: 21%

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

 

[David Gould]

And I ask you in return, is it only crime rates that show godlessness?

We are not asking you to show godleesness. We are asking you to show how godlessness leads to bad things.

I put it to you sexual immorality

Which is what, exactly?

divorce rates,

Which are highest among conservative Christians ...

alcohol abuse rates,

Do you have any evidence that alcohol abuse is worse now than it was in the 1920s, for example?

homosexuality,

Uh huh.

greed

What do you mean by 'greed'? Australia gave hundreds of millions of dollars to the victims of the tsunami. We provide much in the way of aid to our regional neighbours. We have risked Australian lives in missions in East Timor and the Solomon Islands. And so on and so on. A hundred years ago, we did none of these things. 'Why help slanty-eyed [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s?' was the attitude. No longer.

etc should also be included which puts pretty much the whole world in the 'godless' category. Which is exactly why the whole world desperately needs a saviour.

You have yet to demonstrate that being in the 'godless' category is actually a bad thing.

But if you don't see a problem with these things then your only benchmark is criminals in prison. I can't give you an answer to that one.

You make statements. You provide no evidence. Show me how greed is getting worse - and I do not want anecdotes, I want statistical evidence. Show me how alcoholism is on the rise - I want statistical evidence. Et cetera.