Dark Matter

[Justatruthseeker]

Michael is being disingenuous here. Dark matter is theorized not to react with regular matter, or react very little at all. As I have said there is evidence for it in galactic collisions and in the speed of rotations of both galaxies and galactic clusters. Scientists are still working on how to observe it in the laboratory. Michael has a dislike of science that has to be done through observation. Not everything can be reproduced in the laboratory.

Right, so dark matter violates E=mc^2, since nothing can exist without energy, but of course Fairie Dust doesn't emit in the EM spectrum, conveniently. And if it doesn't react with regular matter, then how does it interact gravitationally? And if it only interacts once ever billion or so occurrences (your excuse for non-detection), then how does it hold the universe together gravitationally and affect galaxy rotation curves?

You theorize this matter that interacts gravitationally, then claim you can't detect it because it interacts so very rarely with normal matter. Double-talk. General Relativity that I expect you follow forbids dark matter, as all matter in GR MUST contain energy, that is the entire premise behind E=mc^2. So we throw that out now too just to save your Fairie Dust theory?

There is NO observations of it at all in galactic rotation curves. It is you that is being disingenuous. You mean a force is acting that you can not explain, so you hypothesize Fairie Dust, instead of what we observe everywhere we have ever sent a space probe, electrical forces in plasma.

As a matter of fact, we have all the plasma you could ever dream of right where your dark matter is hypothesized to be.

Milky Way Galaxy is dwarfed by its massive hot gas "halo"

Why do you ignore it? Are your astronomers afraid to call it what it is? Plasma? Any gas at a million degrees is ionized and is a plasma. And what heats this gas to a million degrees out in the cold of space? let me give you a hint, electrical activity.

Induction heating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as we know, plasma is highly electrically conductive.

Plasma (physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But go ahead, hand-wave some more in favor of Fairie Dust.

 

[Michael]

That is not true. When two galaxies collide there are two separate "lensing" events that have been observed.

That's correct. There are the "stellar infrastructures" that basically pass right on through each other. Since stars are separated by vast distances, the odds of a "direct hit" between stars in passing galaxies are infinitesimal.

Then of course you have those million degree plasmas surrounding every galaxy that we just found in 2012. Those plasma bodies *do* interact with each other, and slam into each other.

Nothing exotic is required to explain the passing on through of the stellar structures, nor the interactions of million degree plasma bodies.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

It has been detected, light is warped when it passes through it, and yet inexplicably the behavior of the mass the light passes through doesn't match up with typical matter.

And light is warped when it passes through a medium.

Colossal Gas Cloud Discovered Around Milky Way | Space.com

And for that you are incorrect. It is these plasma halos that astronomers are now using to explain quasars. It just happens to be this highly ionized "gas" that they now want to use to explain the emission and absorption profiles. Profiles that do not match any expansion profile from Doppler shift.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.0446v1.pdf

You have no evidence of dark matter, just plasma halos surrounding every galaxy exactly where your dark matter is theorized to be, and what do you know, it turns out that where this dark matter is supposed to be, we find instead plasma. Plasma that you constantly ignore.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.6005

http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.5825

http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/496/1/253/fulltext/

But you, you want a mass-less photon to be affected by gravity, when it is much more reasonable to assume that an electromagnetic event is affected by electromagnetic phenomenon.

http://www.plasmaphysics.org.uk/research/lensing.htm

http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/darkmatter.htm

 

[florida2]

Right, so dark matter violates E=mc^2, since nothing can exist without energy, but of course Fairie Dust doesn't emit in the EM spectrum, conveniently. And if it doesn't react with regular matter, then how does it interact gravitationally? And if it only interacts once ever billion or so occurrences (your excuse for non-detection), then how does it hold the universe together gravitationally and affect galaxy rotation curves?

Just wondering, where has it been said that dark matter has no energy?

Interaction with matter =/= gravitational interaction. Particles interacting by colliding with one another is completely different to influencing each other through gravity.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Can't quite get my head round this.

Dark matter is present in huge quantities in the universe. Matter has mass. Mass exerts a gravitational force.

So why no dark matter stars or galaxies?

Looked around Wiki but can't find the answer (or at least an answer I can understand)

I haven't had the chance to read to the thread yet. I apologize if someone already gave this answer.

The thing about "dark matter" as well as "dark energy" is that the names are just a place holder. We don't know what it is. But we do know that, whatever it is, it exists. Because we can measure it.

We can see and measure the effect it has on its surroundings, but we do not know yet what it is made off, what properties it has and how we might be able to use it to our benefit or manipulate it or what-have-you.

That's basically the entire story...
There's *something* there which has a measurable effect and we can quantify it. We just can't qualify it yet.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Just wondering, where has it been said that dark matter has no energy?

Interaction with matter =/= gravitational interaction. Particles interacting by colliding with one another is completely different to influencing each other through gravity.

Weakly interacting massive particles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Because they do not interact through electromagnetism they cannot be seen directly, and because they do not interact through the strong nuclear force they do not interact strongly with atomic nuclei."

I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a particle that does not interact through the electromagnetic force. E=mc^2. It's Fairie Dust.

I'm sorry, but if two particles can interact gravitationally, then they are capable of collisions, since both contain mass. In order to have mass, one must have energy, as energy is mass.

Mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In physics, mass (from Greek μᾶζα "barley cake, lump [of dough]") is a property of a physical body which determines the body's resistance to being accelerated by a force and the strength of its mutual gravitational attraction with other bodies. The SI unit of mass is the kilogram (kg). As mass is difficult to measure directly, usually balances or scales are used to measure the weight of an object, and the weight is used to calculate the object's mass. For everyday objects and energies well-described by Newtonian physics, mass describes the amount of matter in an object. However, at very high speeds or for subatomic particles, special relativity shows that energy is an additional source of mass. Thus, any stationary body having mass has an equivalent amount of energy, and all forms of energy resist acceleration by a force and have gravitational attraction."

Mass–energy equivalence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A physical system has a property called energy and a corresponding property called mass; the two properties are equivalent in that they are always both present in the same (i.e. constant) proportion to one another."

If dark matter particles have gravitational attraction, they have mass. If they have mass they have energy. If they have energy then they emit in the electromagnetic spectrum. Anything else is absurd. Everything has mass, even a photon.

What is the mass of a photon?

Unlike DM, a photon is relativistic, and so the concept of rest mass is not applied as one can not bring a photon to rest, at least with our current technology. But if one could, the chance of it having zero rest mass is <0. Unless you are suggesting an alternative theory to quantum electrodynamics upon which all of quantum theory is based?

 

[florida2]

I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a particle that does not interact through the electromagnetic force.

Neutrinos?

 

[Michael]

Just wondering, where has it been said that dark matter has no energy?

Interaction with matter =/= gravitational interaction. Particles interacting by colliding with one another is completely different to influencing each other through gravity.

IMO the primary problem with WIMP theory is the fact that SUSY theory has failed three straight tests in just the past 18 months, including it's own 'golden test', and the particle "properties' are utterly contrived. They first claim it doesn't interact with normal matter or emit light, but when they see gamma rays and positrons in space, they claim "WIMPS did it".

How and why exactly do WIMPS "collide with themselves" in a region of spacetime that would be visible rather than say the core of a sun?

There's literally no rhyme nor reason to the various properties that they assign to their exotic matter of the gap claims. It's a custom fit magic elixir that serves as pure "gap filler" to fix whatever ails their otherwise falsified theory.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

IMO the primary problem with WIMP theory is the fact that SUSY theory has failed three straight tests in just the past 18 months, including it's own 'golden test', and the particle "properties' are utterly contrived. They first claim it doesn't interact with normal matter or emit light, but when they see gamma rays and positrons in space, they claim "WIMPS did it".

How and why exactly do WIMPS "collide with themselves" in a region of spacetime that would be visible rather than say the core of a sun?

There's literally no rhyme nor reason to the various properties that they assign to their exotic matter of the gap claims. It's a custom fit magic elixir that serves as pure "gap filler" to fix whatever ails their otherwise falsified theory.

Also DM is supposed to interact gravitationally and caused galaxies to form, but it isn't needed in the center of galaxies, just on the outskirts to "save" galactic rotation curves from having to take into account the plasma that is there with masses at a minimum of twice all the mass in the galaxy itself combined. Then of course the electromagnetic forces at work in plasma are further ignored. And then ignored is the fact that every type of radiation observed in space has been observed in the laboratory with plasma.

Pinch (plasma physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Pinches may also become unstable,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-11 and generate radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum, including radio waves, x-rayshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-12 and gamma rays,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-13 and also neutronshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-14 and synchrotron radiation."


But of course as long as they continue to ignore all that plasma and the electrical force, they will always need these "gap fillers" to make the math fit a semblance of reality. Conveniently placed in all the right places in opposition to a particle, that if indeed only interacted by the gravitational force, would not be hanging around on the outskirts of galaxies.

Rotation curves that do not even "fit" their Fairie Dust models.

[1010.0270] Magnetic fields and the outer rotation curve of M31

The rotation curve of spiral galaxies and its cosmological implications

http://www.iac.es/preprints/files/PP12050.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-15

 

[florida2]

Also DM is supposed to interact gravitationally and caused galaxies to form, but it isn't needed in the center of galaxies, just on the outskirts to "save" galactic rotation curves from having to take into account the plasma that is there with masses at a minimum of twice all the mass in the galaxy itself combined. Then of course the electromagnetic forces at work in plasma are further ignored. And then ignored is the fact that every type of radiation observed in space has been observed in the laboratory with plasma.

Pinch (plasma physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Pinches may also become unstable,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-11 and generate radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum, including radio waves, x-rayshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-12 and gamma rays,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-13 and also neutronshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-14 and synchrotron radiation."


But of course as long as they continue to ignore all that plasma and the electrical force, they will always need these "gap fillers" to make the math fit a semblance of reality. Conveniently placed in all the right places in opposition to a particle, that if indeed only interacted by the gravitational force, would not be hanging around on the outskirts of galaxies.

Rotation curves that do not even "fit" their Fairie Dust models.

[1010.0270] Magnetic fields and the outer rotation curve of M31

The rotation curve of spiral galaxies and its cosmological implications

http://www.iac.es/preprints/files/PP12050.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#cite_note-15

Do you accept now that there are particles which do not not interact through the electromagnetic force?

 

[Michael]

Do you accept now that there are particles which do not not interact through the electromagnetic force?

Neutrinos?

Considering the fact that 'dark matter' theory experienced three straight falsifications experiments in a row, and it's been reduced to an 'exotic matter of the gaps' argument at this point, what exactly does it take to finally falsify a claim that has never enjoyed empirical support to start with?

 

[Michael]

Neutrinos?

Or not:
[1207.3980] Electromagnetic Properties of Neutrinos
http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.3646

 

[Loudmouth]

That's pretty much how I feel about exotic matter claims by the way.

Why would you need faith when we have evidence?

 

[Loudmouth]

IMO the primary problem with WIMP theory is the fact that SUSY theory has failed three straight tests in just the past 18 months, including it's own 'golden test', and the particle "properties' are utterly contrived. They first claim it doesn't interact with normal matter or emit light, but when they see gamma rays and positrons in space, they claim "WIMPS did it".

How and why exactly do WIMPS "collide with themselves" in a region of spacetime that would be visible rather than say the core of a sun?

There's literally no rhyme nor reason to the various properties that they assign to their exotic matter of the gap claims. It's a custom fit magic elixir that serves as pure "gap filler" to fix whatever ails their otherwise falsified theory.

Newton's theory of gravity was shown to be wrong by Mercury's orbit. According to your logic, this proves that Mercury doesn't exist.

You keep getting the observations mixed up with theories.

 

[Michael]

Why would you need faith when we have evidence?

You just have evidence that your galaxy mass estimates weren't worth the paper they were printed on. You have absolutely no evidence that exotic forms of matter exist.

 

[Michael]

Newton's theory of gravity was shown to be wrong by Mercury's orbit. According to your logic, this proves that Mercury doesn't exist.

You keep getting the observations mixed up with theories.

Er, what kind of absurd strawman is that? Even for you that one is pretty out there.

As I said, you have evidence of 'missing mass' because your galaxy mass estimation techniques are useless, and they stink to high heaven. So what? None of that provides you with any evidence of exotic *forms* of matter. In fact SUSY theory has been falsified three different ways now, including it's own "golden test", and that electron roundness problem. What's it take to *falsify* your claim that exotic matter did it when there is no evidence of the stuff in the first place?

 

[Loudmouth]

You just have evidence that your galaxy mass estimates weren't worth the paper they were printed on. You have absolutely no evidence that exotic forms of matter exist.

Of course, you already know about the bullet cluster and other evidence. Why are you pretending that this evidence doesn't exist?

August 21, 2006 - Dark Matter Observed: Most Direct Measurement of Dark Matter Allows Study of its Nature - Press Release

 

[Loudmouth]

Er, what kind of absurd strawman is that? Even for you that one is pretty out there.

As I said, you have evidence of 'missing mass' because your galaxy mass estimation techniques are useless, and they stink to high heaven. So what? None of that provides you with any evidence of exotic *forms* of matter. In fact SUSY theory has been falsified three different ways now, including it's own "golden test", and that electron roundness problem. What's it take to *falsify* your claim that exotic matter did it when there is no evidence of the stuff in the first place?

The missing mass does not interact with normal matter, as evidenced by the bullet cluster.

August 21, 2006 - Dark Matter Observed: Most Direct Measurement of Dark Matter Allows Study of its Nature - Press Release

This evidence doesn't go away if SUSY fails a test. It is still there. Every time you bark up the SUSY tree you are trying to make these observations go away, but they don't, just as the precession in Mercury's orbit didn't go away when Newton's laws of gravitation were disproved.

 

[Michael]

The missing mass does not interact with normal matter, as evidenced by the bullet cluster.

August 21, 2006 - Dark Matter Observed: Most Direct Measurement of Dark Matter Allows Study of its Nature - Press Release

There are two basic *kinds* of plasma in a galaxy, the lumpy kind, and the million degree variety. The *lumpy* stars are spread so far apart, the likelihood of them directly colliding during a galaxy "collision" is nearly zero. The stellar infrastructure passes right on through. The mainstream *grossly* underestimated this infrastructure by the way:

Galaxies Demand a Stellar Recount - NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory
New View: Universe Suddenly Twice as Bright | Space.com
Gigantic Black Holes Just Got Even Bigger | Ultramassive Black Holes | Space.com

The other kind of plasma in a galaxy, the kind that is actually more massive than the "clumpy stuff" is located in the *million degree* plasma sheath that surrounds every galaxy:

NASA - NASA's Chandra Shows Milky Way is Surrounded by Halo of Hot Gas

Guess what? All of those more recent "discoveries" of "missing mass" that has been found since your 2006 study were all found in the form of (drum roll please) *plasma*! Not only did you *underestimate* the stellar infrastructure, you also couldn't find the *most* 'missing mass" contained in most galaxies until just 2012!

The stellar clumpy infrastructure will indeed pass on through, whereas the million degree plasma sheaths around the infrastructures will indeed "light up" as plasma particles and current streams begin to interact. So what?

So far you have *zero* evidence that any "missing mass" is found in anything particularly exotic, and in fact all the 'missing mass' located since that 2006 study was all found in quite ordinary *plasma*!

This evidence doesn't go away if SUSY fails a test. It is still there.

Yes, along with every *discovery* of *plasma* since then too.

Every time you bark up the SUSY tree you are trying to make these observations go away, but they don't, just as the precession in Mercury's orbit didn't go away when Newton's laws of gravitation were disproved.

After that *string* of miserable failures in your mass estimation techniques, including underestimating the number of ordinary stars in a galaxy by nearly a factor of four, underestimating the size and brightness of the larger stars in the galaxy, and not having even located that plasma sheath yet that sits around the galaxy and contains more mass than every star in the whole galaxy, it's no mystery now as to how and why your mass models were so messed up. No doubt they are *still* messed up too. So what? You still have no logical or rational evidence for exotic forms of matter.

 

[Loudmouth]

There are two basic *kinds* of plasma in a galaxy, the lumpy kind, and the million degree variety. The *lumpy* stars are spread so far apart, the likelihood of them directly colliding during a galaxy "collision" is nearly zero. The stellar infrastructure passes right on through. The mainstream *grossly* underestimated this infrastructure by the way:

Yes, we have all heard the spiel over and over. It doesn't work. Plasma does not magically sort out of galaxies. It is not being taken seriously by astronomers for very good reasons.

The evidence for exotic dark material is still there.