Daniels vision ch. 11-12

[Wildfire]

I would like to open a discussion about Daniels vision from chapters 11-12 concerning the abomination of desolation. I believe that the vision is dual/ and that there is still part of it that must be completed.

Since I am not very good at explaining dates and times, I will post a link that is informative on this subject, to get the discussion rolling.

http://www.ucg.org/articles/gn38/abomination.html

Wildfire

 

[Wildfire]

Before examining chapters 11 & 12 I want to make a note that there appears to be past and future tense in chapter 11:
1-34 past tense of Antiochus
35-45 leap ahead to similiar reign

35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, <even to the time of the end>: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every God, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignition be accomplished: for that is determined shall be done.
37. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any God: for he shall magnify himself above all.
But in his estate he shall honour a God of forces: and a god whom his fathers new not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a <strange> God, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Interesting; do any of you agree that there is a dual part of the vision? That the abomination is not yet complete? Now remember that even Daniel did not understand the vision, when it was given to him:

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O, my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

What are these words that are sealed up, >until the end of time-- since they are for the appointed time, when all shall be fufilled, it will be made clear to those who seek to understand:

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of firmament; and they that turn many over to richeousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Wildfire

 

[jenlu]

Wildfire...John was told something in Revelations exactly opposite from what God told Daniel...Don't seal up the words...reason is the appointed time was at hand...

 

[GraftMeIn]

I wont have alot of time this weekend to be posting, but would love to talk about all this more. and will try and find some time to get in here and talk about it more.

jenlu, John was also told not to write down what the seven thunders had spoken.

 

[Wildfire]

The book of Revelation <began> during Johns time, but it has stretched into our time; and further at Gods will. What is interesting to understand is that Jesus explains all these things as being compared to labor pains. Yes, there will be wars, and famines, earthquakes and plagues, but they will INCREASE at the end. Notice that Jesus tells us plainly what to watch for;

When ye see shall the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let whosoever readeth understand) then let them that be in Judeaa flee to the mountains:

It is a definate cry of an alarm.

Now the seven seals bind the book of life; and as each seal is opened, so do we move closer to the end of this world. We are told to be patient and understanding, because the world has not yet come to its conclusion, because God is wanting all to come to repentance.

Peter tells us that in the last days, there will come scoffers, walking after their own lust, saying:
Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing; that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So Revelations is yet to be fufilled, as is Daniels end vision.

Wildfire

 

[jenlu]

Let me get this straight...you believe that the "last days" spoken by Daniel, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and others started after Jesus' ascension and continue until today...The problem I have with this is there are clear and I mean clear time indicators that the "last days" were at hand for Peter and the rest and they concluded that the end was coming soon(just like many people of our day, I might add)...I take their interpretation of the time indicators seriously...every time that verse is thrown around about "a day is as a thousand years to the Lord" I think about how it was prophesied in the O.T. how Jesus would be resurrected in 3 days...should we take that to mean 3000 years...of course not...when it rained on Noah for 40 days should we read it as 40,000 years...of course not...God put clear time indicators that are understandable in the Bible and the events put with those time indicators must happen within those time indicators or God is a liar...which we all know cannot be the case...Let me throw a quote at you
"Of all the signs described by our Lord as presaging the end of the world some we see already accomplished...For we now see that nation arises against nation....Earthquakes overwhelm countless cities...Pestilence we endure without interruption. It is true we do not see signs in the sun and moon and stars, but that these are not too far off we may infer from the changes of the atmosphere...

Who do you think wrote that? Pope Gregory in the sixth century! There have been so many false predictions in the past(not to distant I might add ie. Hal Lindsey, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and many others) I would be wary of falling into the trap of predicting the end...

About that verse you gave about scoffers after their own lusts...I got one for you...did Jesus mention anything about false prophets...I don't appreciate you associating me with that verse...you may if you wish though...

Do me a favor if you ever get a chance...I think this is a real key in interpreting scripture about the last days...look up the word used for WORLD in the greek...see how it is used in the bible in instance other than talking about the last days...

 

[Wildfire]

Jenlu, I was not associating you with that verse about the scoffers in the end times. I was showing what was meant for the intended future; the impatience and lost faith, that has filled the hearts of many who live today.

No, I am not predicting the end of time, or even trying to. God tells us plainly that NO MAN knows the hour; not the angels, not even his son Jesus Christ, but the father only.

I am discussing events of the future tense, since this is a forum designed for that purpose.
Wildfire

 

[GraftMeIn]

We are merely watching for signs that the Bible tells us to watch for. There are many things happening in the world today that point to the end times. prophecies are still being fulfilled. mostly we are trying to find out where we are now as far as the scriptures say. we know many things will happen, and they are happening now.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Wildfire

Interesting; do any of you agree that there is a dual part of the vision? That the abomination is not yet complete? Now remember that even Daniel did not understand the vision, when it was given to him:
Wildfire

I think you've got it Wildfire,
I have noticed several of these old testament prophecies will have dual fulfillments, Jer.50 / Eze.38, just to name a few. There may be many more, and I would suspect that there are. Even God's word verifies the fact that History was designed to repeat itself. God showed us the shadows of the things to come, but it wasn't until these last days that we are starting to see the big picture. Daniel was told that knowledge would be increased in the last days, and these computers play a huge part in that truth. Now I will go find the scriptures that talk about the shadows and history repeating itself.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Check this out : Ecclesiastes 3 : 15
"Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account."

And here is the other one : Isaiah 46 : 10 - "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

This is Biblical evidence that History was designed to repeat itself. People may say that it was just a coincidence, or somethings just accidentally happen by chance. Was it just a chance?? Yeah - it was a chance alright, a 100% chance.

 

[Wildfire]

Rollin, I recall reading something that Jesus told the disciples about that; the end being the beginning, and the last being the first. Now if the end days are as the days of Noah, when satan was running loose, will this time be during the tribulation period (when his time is short)?

Also what do you think about what Daniel said in chapter 11 about the last king; is Islam and Mohammed the strange God that will become acknowledged and increased to rule over many?

I feel ill knowing that the temple dome has been sitting on the sacred grounds of God for such a long time. How long will he allow such a display of blasphemy?

sigh

Wildfire

 

[TheBear]

This is a general heads-up, for preterists who continue posting in the Eschatology forum. Erwin has made it clear in this thread, that preterist views shall not be posted in the Eschatology forum.

If any preterists have any questions, please contact Erwin, Josephus or any of the staff.


Thank you,
John