Daniel's 70th week

[Al Touthentop]

What you told me.

LOL....

What did I tell you?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I just explained to you how I could come to that conclusion. You asked a question that proved you were not paying any attention to what I have written. Then when I objected, you claimed I just didn't "grasp" what you were asking. If I didn't grasp what you were asking, I must be pretty dense. I mean...if it was a difficult question I could accept that maybe I was not understanding something. But it wasn't a complex question. It was a question that showed you were not paying attention at all.

Here again you hit the reply button with no consideration of the words but only to defend yourself.

Now:

When was/is the day of redemption, and what happens then?

 

[Al Touthentop]

I was not using your response to Luke 20 as the grounds for my conclusions. It is your repeated statements to me. Do you still hold to the view that we are currently in the age to come?

An "age to come" is the future. So we can't be currently in an age to come. We're in an age after the end of the last days of old testament prophecy. There is still a resurrection to come and an age when those of us who abide in Christ live with him in the New Jerusalem.

One day, we'll be in the heavenly age that comes after the resurrection. The Last day ends all earthly ages. We live in an earthly age that began when Christ was crucified. Paul said there would be more than one age to come and he was talking about earthly ages. There is no problem believing that we're in an age after the old testament era ended but before the last day. It doesn't cause any doctrinal problems. Nobody's salvation depends on whether or not they believe they are living in an in between age sandwiched between the old covenant and the Last Day/Resurrection when everything begins anew.

Why is it that you're nitpicking on something that has absolutely no bearing on the gospel and a person's salvation?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Now:

When was/is the day of redemption, and what happens then?

I'm putting you on ignore. We both know when and what that is and we agree on it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world and I've spent several posts saying that it is a distinct prophecy that has nothing to do with the Last Day. Your question totally ignored the context of the past several posts on that subject and showed me that your back and forth on this is not sincere at all. You're not trying to ascertain what I've said, I think you're just trying to win an argument. If you had some specific issue with clarity, you could have pointed out what was unclear. Instead you reframed my position to suit your rebuttal in the form of a loaded question which you should have from my past posts known was already answered.

In short, I don't believe you're sincere because of your responses. That could change. I'm open to continuing discussion.

Let us see what the Bible attributes to the oft-mentioned time-period “this age” (or aion). Galatians 1:4 tells us that Christ “gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world (or aion or age), according to the will of God and our Father.”

We are still there!

According to this passage, what is “this age” particularly known for? What sets it apart from the age to come?

It is “evil”! The Greek word for evil is poneros! The meaning of this word is: “hurtful in effect or influence.” The word indicates ‘degeneracy from original virtue’. We do not need to look too far to realize that it is talking about our current age. In fact, evil has been with us since the fall, and will be with us to the second coming. This gives us immediate insight into the starting and finishing point of “this age.”

This age is constantly depicted throughout Scripture as being plagued by the existence of sin, decay and death. It is never portrayed as a pleasant, pristine or lasting state. In fact, Galatians 1:4 describes this age as “this present evil age;” one that Christ came to “deliver” us from through His death. Evil marks the period of time in-between the fall and the second coming of Christ. We can therefore confidently conclude that “this age” that we are looking at is still with us.

Paul the apostle tells us in Ephesians 5:16 that we should be: “redeeming the time, because the days are evil.”

This is a present ongoing reality on planet earth.

Ephesians 6:13 expressly says, “take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

God simply promises the Ephesians His divine power and protection in the midst of evil, something that is in keeping with His character throughout the Word of God.

That is why Scripture exhorts us in Romans 12:2: “be not conformed to this world (or aion or age): but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

We are still there!

This is a spiritual directive that is applicable to man this side of eternity, or, right up until the day Christ returns. Believers are admonished not

not be conformed to this world because it is a wicked debased world that is corrupted by sinful man. Anyone that would relate this state to any other time than “this present evil age” is clearly in error.

Rather than this world becoming more enlightened and more liberated it is shown to becomes eviler and more bound. 2 Timothy 3:13 tells us: “evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” This has not let up since the beginning.

This age, the earth that we live on and the spirit that controls this age are constantly shown to be fallen and depraved. That is why Jesus prayed to His Father in John 17:15-16: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world (or kosmos), but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world (or kosmos), even as I am not of the world (or kosmos).”

While the word kosmos can refer to the physical globe, it is regularly used in Scripture to refer to the ethical realm of sin existing upon this earth: the ungodly system out there that is sinful, carnal and against God. Basically, it describes the devil’s playing ground. This current fallen “world” is again represented by “evil.”

Jesus tells us in John 15:19: “If ye were of the world (or kosmos), the world (or kosmos) would love his own: but because ye are not of the world (or kosmos), but I have chosen you out of the world (or kosmos), therefore the world (or kosmos) hateth you.”

We should say at this juncture, so as to avoid any misunderstanding, there is definitely a strong, snug and repeated correlation between “this world” and “this age” and also equally “the world to come” and “the age to come.” In fact, they are consistently indistinguishable. This may even explain why the older commentators translated certain Greek words the way they did.

The reason we “are not of the world” is because it is temporary, corrupt and consumed with selfishness and sin. While we are in the world we are not of the world. This fallen world is infatuated with that which is wrong.

1 John 2:15-17 adds further illumination to the whole subject, saying: “Love not the world (or kosmos), neither the things that are in the world (or kosmos). If any man love the world (or kosmos), the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world (or kosmos), the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (or kosmos). And the world (or kosmos) passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.”

That is what John is referring to in 1 John 5:19 when he says: “the whole world (or kosmos) lieth in wickedness.”

The world, therefore, is the sinful environment that we live in on this earth that is controlled by Satan. Scripture is always repudiating this present age because of the presence of sin, the consequences of sin, the continued existence of Satan, and his nefarious influence over the majority of mankind.

We see the connection between “this age” and “this world” in the Bible’s description of the devil. 2 Corinthians 4:4 describes Satan as “the god of this world” (or aion or age). John 12:31, 14:30 and 16:11 on the other hand calls Satan “the prince of this world” (or kosmos). He is expressly both “the god of this age” and “the prince of this world.” Basically, now is his time.

It makes perfect sense to connect the existence of “evil” in “this age” to the activity of our arch-enemy the devil. After all, he is the source of evil and he is also “the god of this age.” When you note the destructive influence of, and interconnection between, both it is easy to identify the timespan that is known as “this present evil age” (Galatians 1:4). Satan and evil on this earth can be traced right back to the creation of man and the beginning of time. Scripture shows both the wicked one and wickedness functioning until the second coming of Christ, when Satan and all evil are finally extinguished. The reason being: they are inextricably linked. It is therefore reasonable to identify the length of “this age” with the activity and influence of “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and the evil he orchestrates (Romans 12:2 and Galatians 1:4).

As you study the teaching of Scripture (both Old Testament and New Testament) on this subject you see the Holy Spirit is constantly exhorting believers to shun the spirit and influence of this age.

2 Timothy 4:10 tells us, “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world (or aion or age), and is departed unto Thessalonica.”

Loving “this present age” is depicted as a serious departure from the faith. Demas got distracted with the temporary worldly pleasures of “this present age.” He got his eyes off the eternal – which is ushered in at the return of Christ. His falling away had nothing to do with his love for the old covenant era/arrangement, as Preterists might impute into this passage. No, it was synonymous with worldliness that still exist in this current evil age (until Jesus comes).

Jesus splits those who hear His Word into four different groupings. He symbolically likens them onto 4 types of ground (4 different types of heart) that receive the seed (the Word) in the parable of the sower in Mark 4. When He turned to the 3rd type of ground (or heart) in Mark 4:18-19 He said: “And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world (or aion or age), and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.” We find this same thought in Matthew 13:22 also.

A basic examination of this text reveals that “cares” and “this age” are inextricably tied together. They cannot be divorced. This is a reality that has existed since the fall. Cares, in the Bible, are restricted to this current “evil age.” They have no place in the age to come. That which is to come is always represented as unending bliss, perfection and peace.

In their theology, Premillennialism and Preterism welcome “the cares of this world (or age),” and every vice pertaining to it, into the “age to come,” thus negating the whole juxtapose between the two ages.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'm putting you on ignore. We both know when and what that is and we agree on it.

I suspect that you are aware of why I am asking you that. Luke 21, which is the parallel passage to Matthew 24, tells us in Luke 21:28: "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" [Gr. eggizō].

This is definitely not speaking of Titus or AD70.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I suspect that you are aware of why I am asking you that. Luke 21, which is the parallel passage to Matthew 24, tells us in Luke 21:28: "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" [Gr. eggizō].

This is definitely not speaking of Titus or AD70.

That's exactly what it is speaking of. That word redemption doesn't mean ultimate redemption every time you see it. You have a terrible habit of injecting meaning into words that do not apply in the context. This redemption is redemption from the persecution he just told them they would suffer before Jerusalem finally fell. And he would be coming to execute that judgement.

Your practice of applying every definition for a word in every instance it is used is an infantile practice.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That's exactly what it is speaking of. That word redemption doesn't mean ultimate redemption every time you see it. You have a terrible habit of injecting meaning into words that do not apply in the context. This redemption is redemption from the persecution he just told them they would suffer before Jerusalem finally fell. And he would be coming to execute that judgement.

Your practice of applying every definition for a word in every instance it is used is an infantile practice.

Corroboration is a crucial interpretive rule that most sound theologian use. I realize Preterists struggle with it. But I make no apology for interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Who redeemed who in Luke 21:28? And what did that redemption entail?

 

[mkgal1]

Corroboration is a crucial interpretive rule that most sound theologian use. I realize Preterists struggle with it. But I make no apology for interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Who redeemed who in Luke 21:28? And what did that redemption entail?

You answered that here (and I agree with you - and have said so many times - although I understand this question wasn't addressed to me). Christ brought redemption for His believers and judgement on those who were disloyal to Him:

Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Post #10 Full post here: Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

 

[pasifika]

Corroboration is a crucial interpretive rule that most sound theologian use. I realize Preterists struggle with it. But I make no apology for interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Who redeemed who in Luke 21:28? And what did that redemption entail?

Who redeemed in Luke 21:28? Is all the righteous on earth...being redeemed by Christ Himself

Luke 21:20-24 is specific to Jerusalem (Israel) and Luke 21:25-26 is the whole world at same time...

Luke 21:27...is where the redemption of our bodies happened...(physical )

Redemption entails putting a new glorified body...1Corinthians 15:51-53...

 

[mkgal1]

Who redeemed in Luke 21:28? Is all the righteous on earth...being redeemed by Christ Himself

Luke 21:20-24 is specific to Jerusalem (Israel) and Luke 21:25-26 is the whole world at same time...

Luke 21:27...is where the redemption of our bodies happened...(physical )

Redemption entails putting a new glorified body...1Corinthians 15:51-53...

What signifies this change of topic that you perceive there?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Who redeemed in Luke 21:28? Is all the righteous on earth...being redeemed by Christ Himself

Luke 21:20-24 is specific to Jerusalem (Israel) and Luke 21:25-26 is the whole world at same time...

Luke 21:27...is where the redemption of our bodies happened...(physical )

Redemption entails putting a new glorified body...1Corinthians 15:51-53...

So Luke 21:25-26 is still future in your estimation and relates to a literal physical resurrection of the elect?

 

[pasifika]

You answered that here (and I agree with you - and have said so many times - although I understand this question wasn't addressed to me). Christ brought redemption for His believers and judgement on those who were disloyal to Him:


Post #10 Full post here: Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

You answered that here (and I agree with you - and have said so many times - although I understand this question wasn't addressed to me). Christ brought redemption for His believers and judgement on those who were disloyal to Him:


Post #10 Full post here: Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

Hello, did the event in Luke 21:27 really happened at AD 70 in Jerusalem?
Any source to confirm it?

 

[pasifika]

So Luke 21:25-26 is still future in your estimation and relates to a literal physical resurrection of the elect?

Luke 21:20-26 is definitely future.....all events happens at same time in Jerusalem and the world and All ends at verse 27 which is the coming of Christ...

 

[pasifika]

What signifies this change of topic that you perceive there?

Sorry can you reword the question please

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry can you reword the question please

Where do you see that Jesus moved to a different subject?

 

[mkgal1]

Hello, did the event in Luke 21:27 really happened at AD 70 in Jerusalem?
Any source to confirm it?

Josephus - a Jewish historian that was an eye-witness recorded the events. Here is a link to an article that includes some of the writing of Josephus: https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/home/perma/1413631731/article/the-coming-of-jesus-the-olive.html

His books are Antiquities and Wars of the Jews.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Hello, did the event in Luke 21:27 really happened at AD 70 in Jerusalem?
Any source to confirm it?

Reasons why it's pretty hard not to conclude that he was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

1. He told them that not one stone would be left standing.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

So he's talking about the destruction of the very temple they were admiring to him. That's our context.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

2. They're not asking about the end of the world. Jesus doesn't answer their question by changing the subject. The 'end of the age' is not the same thing as the end of the world. They know all about the resurrection on the 'last day.'

3. Jerusalem was destroyed and was surrounded by armies exactly as Jesus prophesied. The Christians of that time escaped because they were all warned by this prophecy and they left exactly when Vespasian's Army first encircled Jerusalem. Vespasian left, and Titus returned. Nobody got out after that and Jerusalem was made utterly desolate. Over a million Jews died and those who escaped holed up in Masada and then committed mass suicide. At the destruction of the temple, the Romans tore down the stones to the foundations because of the gold which had melted and run into the seams between the stones.

4. Jesus said that everything, all of what he had said, including his coming on the clouds would happen before that generation passed.

So everything in this passage points to the destruction of Jerusalem, the context of the question, the timing and the historical record. It's up to us to accept it as written, not whistle past the details, believing what some men say about this passage.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Josephus - a Jewish historian that was an eye-witness recorded the events. Here is a link to an article that includes some of the writing of Josephus: https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/home/perma/1413631731/article/the-coming-of-jesus-the-olive.html

His books are Antiquities and Wars of the Jews.

He did not believe Jesus come in AD70. That is absurd.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Reasons why it's pretty hard not to conclude that he was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

1. He told them that not one stone would be left standing.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

So he's talking about the destruction of the very temple they were admiring to him. That's our context.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

2. They're not asking about the end of the world. Jesus doesn't answer their question by changing the subject. The 'end of the age' is not the same thing as the end of the world. They know all about the resurrection on the 'last day.'

3. Jerusalem was destroyed and was surrounded by armies exactly as Jesus prophesied. The Christians of that time escaped because they were all warned by this prophecy and they left exactly when Vespasian's Army first encircled Jerusalem. Vespasian left, and Titus returned. Nobody got out after that and Jerusalem was made utterly desolate. Over a million Jews died and those who escaped holed up in Masada and then committed mass suicide. At the destruction of the temple, the Romans tore down the stones to the foundations because of the gold which had melted and run into the seams between the stones.

4. Jesus said that everything, all of what he had said, including his coming on the clouds would happen before that generation passed.

So everything in this passage points to the destruction of Jerusalem, the context of the question, the timing and the historical record. It's up to us to accept it as written, not whistle past the details, believing what some men say about this passage.

What you and other Preterists fail to see is that the disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “Master, but when shall these things be?”
2. “and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the Second Coming.