Daniel's 70th week

[Brian Mcnamee]

Every single thing mentioned in Daniel 9:27 occurs in that same 70th week. That means there is only a 7 year window in view in that verse. Anything outside that 7 year window couldn't possibly have anything to do with the 70th week. Therefore I don't see it fitting with what you submitted.

Hi the sign was 70 7 until Messiah who was cut off and Jesus did ride in on the foal of an add this day. That is key as Jesus said you did not know this thy day of thy visitation and therefor your house is left desolate. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple are added on to the prophecy with the clause and the ...
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Now the destruction of the Temple and city have been accomplished but who is this prince to come?

the futurist view has the Temple being rebuilt where 2 Thes 2 describes the man of sin being revealed in it. This man is given power by Satan and is said to perform lying signs and wonders that even the elect would be fooled if it were possible. He is also said to be destroyed by the coming of the LORD. In Rev we see the beast is also said to be given power by Satan and interesting how he has exactly 42 months (which would fit with the middle of the week) to reign over every tribe tongue kindred and nation and he too is blaspheming God and causes all to worship the dragon and then the false prophet rolls out the image and mark, number or name of the beast system. This logically is the same guy as in 2 Thes 2 who is revealed in the Temple claiming to be God. The beast is also destroyed by the coming of Jesus.

The 3rd Temple is planned and prepared for and is ready at such a time that the world is as the times of Noah and Lot. Hosea 3 is a key prophecy as the return of the kingdom is given a specific sign for the latter days. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now Israel has gone many days without a sacrifice or king. The return of the sacrifice after many days is the key sign for the latter days. Note this is not bringing back the old covenant sacrifices as an acceptable offering but is the sign for arrival of the prince to come who will commit the abomination of desolation at that time and in that temple.

Additional support is in Dan 7 which describes the day the son of man comes and is given the kingdom that covers the earth and has not end. The pompous one arrives who is the same as the beast and man of sin and he too is given 42 months described as time times and half a time and he meets his end also at the coming of the LORD. He is persecuting the saints also as the beast does.



This is all future and lined up to occur in a literal fashion.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi the sign was 70 7 until Messiah who was cut off and Jesus did ride in on the foal of an add this day. That is key as Jesus said you did not know this thy day of thy visitation and therefor your house is left desolate. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple are added on to the prophecy with the clause and the ...
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Now the destruction of the Temple and city have been accomplished but who is this prince to come?

the futurist view has the Temple being rebuilt where 2 Thes 2 describes the man of sin being revealed in it. This man is given power by Satan and is said to perform lying signs and wonders that even the elect would be fooled if it were possible. He is also said to be destroyed by the coming of the LORD. In Rev we see the beast is also said to be given power by Satan and interesting how he has exactly 42 months (which would fit with the middle of the week) to reign over every tribe tongue kindred and nation and he too is blaspheming God and causes all to worship the dragon and then the false prophet rolls out the image and mark, number or name of the beast system. This logically is the same guy as in 2 Thes 2 who is revealed in the Temple claiming to be God. The beast is also destroyed by the coming of Jesus.

The 3rd Temple is planned and prepared for and is ready at such a time that the world is as the times of Noah and Lot. Hosea 3 is a key prophecy as the return of the kingdom is given a specific sign for the latter days. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now Israel has gone many days without a sacrifice or king. The return of the sacrifice after many days is the key sign for the latter days. Note this is not bringing back the old covenant sacrifices as an acceptable offering but is the sign for arrival of the prince to come who will commit the abomination of desolation at that time and in that temple.

Additional support is in Dan 7 which describes the day the son of man comes and is given the kingdom that covers the earth and has not end. The pompous one arrives who is the same as the beast and man of sin and he too is given 42 months described as time times and half a time and he meets his end also at the coming of the LORD. He is persecuting the saints also as the beast does.



This is all future and lined up to occur in a literal fashion.

As to the 70th week, my view is also futurist, except I don't see it involving a literal temple in Jerusalem getting rebuilt in order to fulfill these things in the future.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Apparently then, the trangression is not even finished until an entire 70 weeks have been fulfilled first. As to Daniel 9:27, in the midst of the week, is that meaning at the conclusion of an entire 70 weeks, 490 years? No. It's only meaning 69 and 1/2 weeks thusfar, 486.5 years, therefore nothing in the midst of the 70th week equals the 70 full weeks determined, to finish the transgression. But if you think I'm wrong here, why does the text in Daniel 9:24 plainly and undeniably say 70 weeks are determined, unless it literally meant what it says?

Where is the problem?

The ceasing of the sacrifice happened in the middle of the last week (the 70th week) and that finished the transgression. Technically, God suffered the Jews another 40 years before the physical temple was finally destroyed.

About 3 1/2 years after the sacrifice was made, the gospel was preached to the Gentiles. Thus ends the 70 weeks.

But even still, all of things determined to happen in the prophecy occurred within that 70 week period. There was no gap anywhere. It doesn't say that it all had to happen on a single day at the end of the 70 weeks. What do we read? That the covenant would be confirmed for a week. It was revealed at the beginning of the 70th week and confirmed in the middle of the week and completed with the Gentiles at the end of the week.

What do you think is missing?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

As to the 70th week, my view is also futurist, except I don't see it involving a literal temple in Jerusalem getting rebuilt in order to fulfill these things in the future.

look at 2 thess 2 and think over the verse in Hosea that says if you go many days without something it implies after many days you will have it. The current situation has Israel all prepared for a 3rd temple and the man of sin is revealed where? In the temple. The sin of Satan is wanting to be like the most high. Isaiah
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[fn] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

The man of sin in 2 Thes 2

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[fn] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[fn] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is when the sacrifice as Hosea says returns after many days and then is stopped in the middle of the week aka abomination of desolation. The lie is that he is a god and in Rev 13 he causes all to worship the dragon as well as himself. This is why the preparation for the 3rd temple is key as it is the very stage for this to play out on.

 

[DavidPT]

I am pretty sure it is Babrean2, recycled as soverigngrace.

Douggg, it's not Babrean2. If it was him he would have been bombarding us with the events of the 7th trumpet by now. That seemed to be his ace in the hole that pretty much trumped everything, in his mind. Initially I thought sovereigngrace may have been another poster I used to encounter on another board in the past. I no longer think that anymore though. So it's only a coincidence that sovereigngrace reminds some of us of other posters we have encountered in that past, and not that he is actually any of them.

But speaking of Babrean2 then, where has he been at lately? Haven't noticed him posting for some time now. Hopefully he is ok.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Additional support is in Dan 7 which describes the day the son of man comes and is given the kingdom that covers the earth and has not end. The pompous one arrives who is the same as the beast and man of sin and he too is given 42 months described as time times and half a time and he meets his end also at the coming of the LORD. He is persecuting the saints also as the beast does.



This is all future and lined up to occur in a literal fashion.

The kingdom came and it has no end. How can you see it as something still to come in the future?

 

[DavidPT]

Where is the problem?

The ceasing of the sacrifice happened in the middle of the last week (the 70th week) and that finished the transgression. Technically, God suffered the Jews another 40 years before the physical temple was finally destroyed.

About 3 1/2 years after the sacrifice was made, the gospel was preached to the Gentiles. Thus ends the 70 weeks.

But even still, all of things determined to happen in the prophecy occurred within that 70 week period. There was no gap anywhere. It doesn't say that it all had to happen on a single day at the end of the 70 weeks. What do we read? That the covenant would be confirmed for a week. It was revealed at the beginning of the 70th week and confirmed in the middle of the week and completed with the Gentiles at the end of the week.

What do you think is missing?

Once again here is my position. When Christ died and rose, that put an end to sacrificing animals in the temple once and for all at that time, regardless that the Jews continued sacrificing in the temple another 40 years. I don't even dispute that. I'm not even arguing against that. My argument is, Daniel 9:27 is not referring to this.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Once again here is my position. When Christ died and rose, that put an end to sacrificing animals in the temple once and for all at that time, regardless that the Jews continued sacrificing in the temple another 40 years. I don't even dispute that. I'm not even arguing against that. My argument is, Daniel 9:27 is not referring to this.

As to the 70th week, my view is also futurist, except I don't see it involving a literal temple in Jerusalem getting rebuilt in order to fulfill these things in the future.

But Premil rebuilds this demolished temple, re-sows the curtain separating the holy of holies from the sanctuary and reintroduces this whole abolished sacrifice system in their supposed future millennium.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Once again here is my position. When Christ died and rose, that put an end to sacrificing animals in the temple once and for all at that time, regardless that the Jews continued sacrificing in the temple another 40 years. I don't even dispute that. I'm not even arguing against that. My argument is, Daniel 9:27 is not referring to this.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

 

[DavidPT]

But Premil rebuilds this demolished temple, re-sows the curtain separating the holy of holies from the sanctuary and reintroduces this whole abolished sacrifice system in their supposed future millennium.

That is indeed true, except for one thing. Not all Premils do that. I know I don't. I know of plenty of other Premils who don't either.

 

[Al Touthentop]

You post is about Soteriology. This forum is about eschatology.

Eschatology is about Soteriology. Unless you decide to read prophecy as not being about Jesus coming and establishing his kingdom. Then you can totally ignore that it's about Jesus and look around for things that were never prophesied and have no importance other than to fool people into thinking that the New Testament was just the beginning, that there is some third covenant coming where the Jews will be remade into God's special people and will rebuild an earthly temple that has no possible use since animal sacrifices will never replace Christ's ultimate sacrifice. If you read old testament prophecy as if it is still waiting to be fulfilled, then there was no point in Jesus coming. We're still waiting for the Messiah to come and establish his kingdom.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Once again here is my position. When Christ died and rose, that put an end to sacrificing animals in the temple once and for all at that time, regardless that the Jews continued sacrificing in the temple another 40 years. I don't even dispute that. I'm not even arguing against that. My argument is, Daniel 9:27 is not referring to this.

Well that's pretty sad actually. Because that would mean that God's prophecies do not get fulfilled in the time he claims they'll be fulfilled.

 

[coffee]

What exactly does this matter? People get into very heated arguments about this, but it seems to me that as long as we're all agreed that Christ will return bodily and raise the dead, this seems to be an irrelevant argument.

EDIT: I understand people have a desire to understand the Bible, but if that's all there is to it, then why don't we have more threads about the geanealogy of Manasseh? There are plenty of more important eschatological topics to discuss, e.g. prophecies about the creation of the State of Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That is indeed true, except for one thing. Not all Premils do that. I know I don't. I know of plenty of other Premils who don't either.

I am glad to hear that! You are certainly the exception to the rule. Most are captivated with restoring this arrangement.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What exactly does this matter? People get into very heated arguments about this, but it seems to me that as long as we're all agreed that Christ will return bodily and raise the dead, this seems to be an irrelevant argument.

EDIT: I understand people have a desire to understand the Bible, but if that's all there is to it, then why don't we have more threads about the geanealogy of Manasseh? There are plenty of more important eschatological topics to discuss, e.g. prophecies about the creation of the State of Israel.

What is so important about "the creation of the State of Israel"? That nation is apostate and Christ-rejecting

 

[sovereigngrace]

That is indeed true, except for one thing. Not all Premils do that. I know I don't. I know of plenty of other Premils who don't either.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

There for certain would be no gaps in them. But that doesn't prove there are no gaps in the 70 weeks.

Let me demonstrate something here.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let's assume one's position is, there are no gaps in the 70 weeks. Clearly this verse is meaning the 70th week, yet the same ones claiming no gaps in the 70 weeks have this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---meaning a much later time in history, some thinking maybe 70 AD.

The fact verse 27 is the 70th week, how can one claim there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, then turn right around and contradict that by claiming what I pasted from the latter part of this verse, that this is meaning a much later time in history? If that is not a gap in the 70 weeks, what is it then?

 

[coffee]

What is so important about "the creation of the State of Israel"? That nation is a apostate and Christ-rejecting

That wasn't my point. If you don't agree with my example, I assume you still got my main point?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The kingdom came and it has no end. How can you see it as something still to come in the future?

The kingdom of heaven if for all those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. So when Jesus was preaching the kingdom of heaven in that sense the kingdom had come. In all the passages that describe the kingdom age the kingdom comes to earth suddenly as in Zech 14 the day the LORD comes with his saints and melts the armies that are overrunning Jerusalem that is the day the LORD is king over all the earth. That day the Mt of Olives splits in two and a new river forms and flows year round and the nations which are left must now keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Here we see the day the throne of the LORD is established and Jesus takes the throne of David. The book of Rev shows the angles declare the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and he shall reign forever. Again in Rev the kingdom comes when the beast is persecuting the Jews and Christians for 42 months. The coming of the kingdom destroys the beast who was given authority by Satan. Jesus when tempted by Satan was shown all the kingdoms of the world at a time and noted that these were delivered to him and he could give them to whom he wished and offered them to Jesus if He would bow to him. The man of sin in 2 Thes 2 and the beast have been given the dominion and the 2nd coming is when the LORD is king over all the earth.
The Bible says Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations which were deceived will no longer be deceived until the 1000 years if over. It shows the beast and false prophet being thrown into the fire and they are still there when the 1000 years is over. Satan when released brings one final rebellion where he surrounds the city and that is as far as it goes. The ending described at the end of the 1000 years is completely different than the one that meets the beast and false prophet. Dan 7 chimes in as well as it describes a pompous one who is persecuting for a time times and half a time the the kingdom is given to one as the son of man who precedes forth from before the ancient of days. Again the pompous one is given to the flame but oddly look at this verse.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Verse 11 the rest of the beast lost their dominion but have their lives prolonged a season and time. I maintain that this is 1000 year season and released at the time to tempt on last rebellion. They never get their dominion again. When we see all 3 accounts the 2nd coming and the onset of the kingdom has Israel being saved from their enemies on that day.

Luke 1 prophecy describes Jesus mission.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

When you see this transition from tribulation to millennium we see this exact deliverance and Israel now is saved by faith in Jesus as God and Savior. Zech 14 says in that day they will say the LORD is one. this is Israel confessing Jesus is God, It is the moment Joseph is revealed to his brothers and Jesus performs exactly what was promised he would do here in Luke 1. I already pointed out in Jer 3 when the throne of the LORD is established He vows to give Israel the inheritance of the promised land. This is echoed in Eze 47 which also affirms the river formed in Zech 14 heals the dead sea and it becomes a prosperous fishing area and in that same time Thus says the Lord GOD: “These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance. 15 “This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zeda.

The inheritance is described in great detail and comes with a thus sayeth the LORD> The boundaries go to the sea, which in the New Jerusalem we know there is no sea. This is all future.

The kingdom of heaven is a separate issue from the kingdom on earth. When the LORD reigns there will be no more war, genocide, and all the other rampant evil that has persisted the last 2000 years. The rod of iron is not needed in heaven but will be used on earth and glory of the kingdom age will be spectacular.

 

[DavidPT]

Well that's pretty sad actually. Because that would mean that God's prophecies do not get fulfilled in the time he claims they'll be fulfilled.

I refer you to post #97 then. Clearly in that post I proved that those claiming no gaps in the 70 weeks are contradicting that claim by way of their interpretation of verse 27 in Daniel 9. Some of you might want to clear up that matter first, before deciding that some are wrong for concluding there is a gap in the 70 weeks, when you yourselves, via your interpretation of verse 27 are claiming the same thing.