Daniel's 70 Weeks Correctly Explained At Last

[Douggg]

 

[jgr]

It isn't anyone's 'common sense'.

When the Holy Spirit has inspired the same sense in every recognized student of the Word who has ever lived, that's as good a definition of common sense as there is.

Contrasted with futurism's uncommon nonsense.

 

[keras]

When the Holy Spirit has inspired the same sense in every recognized student of the Word who has ever lived, that's as good a definition of common sense as there is.
.

But 'every recognized student of the Word', do not agree on God's Plans for the end times.
To promote they do, is stupidity.

 

[Timtofly]

It isn't anyone's 'common sense'. It is the Biblical truth that the Lord's plans for the end times were hidden from everyone until right up to when it will all happen. Daniel 12:4 and 9 make this quite clear.

Even then, only a few people who have studied the Prophetic Word with an open mind, will understand what is about to take place. The rest of the world will be shocked and terrified.

I disagree that the final 7 years of Daniels 70, are split as you think.
That idea is even more illogical than shoe horning it all into the first century.
The last 7 years before Jesus Returns, will commence when the leader of the One World Govt makes a peace treaty with the people in the holy Land, who will have just been saved from annihilation by a huge army from the North, by the Power of the Lord. Ezekiel 38 and 39.
The first 3 1/2 years will be peaceful, but then the OWG leader will come and conquer them. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:5-8, Daniel 7:25

The final 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days, will be the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, culminating in Armageddon and Jesus' Return. Revelation 16:12-18, 19:11-21

The 4th Seal war, that John does not define as fulfilling any OT battle, is not just in the ME 25% of earth. That would mean all of those people in that area, 100% of that 25% would all be dead.

Seal 4 covers the whole earth and 25% of humanity dies. Not only will nations attack Israel, countries in SA will be attacking each other. Countries in Africa will be fighting each other, as well as eastern Asia will be fighting each other. The OT prophets only covered Israel, and the 6th Seal will stop the violence when the continents are brought back together, in all the turmoil.

Jesus will be on earth after the 6th Seal during the Trumpets and Thunders. It will not be 3.5 years. That time is being shortened the longer the Second Coming is held for the church to finish up her part of the harvest. Daniel never claims there is a solid 70th week. That is my point. Satan's 42 months is not part of any trib prophecied by OT prophets. It is not a "second half". It is an interruption to the week of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet wraps up the Second Coming. Satan should not get 42 months and split that week up. The 7th Trumpet is the confirmation of the Covenant week. The Lamb is finished with the harvest started 1991 years ago, after being cut off. The days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet is Daniel 9:27. Daniel did not see it that way, because Daniel did not see the 1991 year church period. Most want to make that week 7 years. That is impossible. Jesus Himself declared that time would be cut short. John explains Daniel 9:27 in Revelation 10:7. Yet to many it is still a mystery. Revelation 13 is the interruption of desolation that will end at Armageddon, and the Millennium will start the next day. The 7th Trumpet stops at the end of the battle of Armageddon. Time is up and the Atonement (that Covenant) is complete. Revelation 20:4 declares a physical resurrection. Many people of all nations recieve incorruptible bodies. They rule (over their own offspring) with Christ for 1000 years. The 7th Trumpet stopping at the end of the 1 hour battle is the final end of the 70 weeks. Only John in Revelations defines the ending that Daniel can only state as:

"he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

John solves the mystery with Satan being bound for 1000 years, the culmination, the 1000 year iron rod, rule of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It makes zero sense to provide the understanding for a vision if no one has even seen the vision needing further understanding about first. The pattern in ch 7 and 8 are, Daniel first receives a vision and that he is then describing what he is seeing, then he is provided understanding of what he saw, after he has received the vision first. Where in Daniel 9 before verse 24 does the text even hint that Daniel is first seeing a vision in this chapter, then he is being provided with further understanding of what he saw? And since there is no vision like that first in Daniel 9, the vision in verse 23 has to be pertaining to a vision Daniel saw at an earlier time.

Look at ch 7, for instance.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.


Who would even dispute that Daniel is seeing a vision here? No one would since it clearly states so in the text. So where in Daniel 9 is there anything in that chapter that Daniel is seeing verses 24-27 as a vision while in a dream like state, or whatever kind of state one might be in when they receive a vision?

In Daniel 7, for instance, Daniel is describing what is seeing in the vision. In chapter 9 where is that you see Daniel describing what he is seeing in a vision? Unless you can point it out, you don't even have a valid argument here, though I'm guessing you still think you do, regardless. Verses 24-27 are not even remotely depicting Daniel describing what he is seeing in a vision. Or did you perhaps neglect to notice that?

What I don't think you understand is that a "vision" can involve actually literally seeing something (like in a dream) or it can involve being given insight to the future. I believe the "vision" mentioned in Daniel 9:23 refers to the insight to the future that Gabriel gave to Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27 regarding "the matter" that was described earlier in Daniel 9.

So, the "vision" refers to the insight given in Daniel 9:24-27 itself rather than Daniel 9:24-27 being an explanation of a previous vision that Daniel saw, such as the vision from Daniel 8. The vision in Daniel 8 was already explained in Daniel 8:15-25, so I see no basis for thinking it would be explained again.

 

[DavidPT]

It isn't anyone's 'common sense'.

What I was meaning in regards to common sense in that post, I wasn't applying that in general, I was applying it about something specific. In this case, that seeing a vision, then being explained the vision at a later time, these are not the same thing. In Daniel 9 there is no vision Daniel is seeing in that chapter, because if there was, he would be describing what he was seeing, and that he isn't doing that in that chapter. Verses 24-27 are not Daniel describing anything he is seeing in a vision, but apparently others seem to think otherwise, verses 24-27 are the angel providing Daniel further understanding, concerning the vision in question. What vision, that is the question? It obviously has to be a vision Daniel has already seen at some point. And since we don't see Daniel receiving a vision and then describing it anywhere in ch 9, the vision meant has to mean a vision he saw earlier in another chapter. That's what I'm applying common sense to, pretty much all of that I just said.

 

[DavidPT]

What I don't think you understand is that a "vision" can involve actually literally seeing something (like in a dream) or it can involve being given insight to the future.

You thought wrong since I do understand that. I do recognize that there can be a difference like you pointed out. One way to maybe get to the bottom of this, let's see how 'vision' was used elsewhere in Daniel, and if there are any passages where it only involves this---"or it can involve being given insight to the future". We'll call that B) and we will call this A)----"can involve actually literally seeing something (like in a dream)"

Can you then provide some passages or passage in the book of Daniel where it would not be involving A) at anytime, but would only be involving B)? But not meaning in Daniel 9 since the usage of 'vision' in that chapter is what is in question, and that we are trying to determine from other chapters in Daniel if it was ever used only in the sense pertaining to B).

 

[Timtofly]

What I don't think you understand is that a "vision" can involve actually literally seeing something (like in a dream) or it can involve being given insight to the future. I believe the "vision" mentioned in Daniel 9:23 refers to the insight to the future that Gabriel gave to Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27 regarding "the matter" that was described earlier in Daniel 9.

So, the "vision" refers to the insight given in Daniel 9:24-27 itself rather than Daniel 9:24-27 being an explanation of a previous vision that Daniel saw, such as the vision from Daniel 8. The vision in Daniel 8 was already explained in Daniel 8:15-25, so I see no basis for thinking it would be explained again.

So when two beings have a conversation in close proximity that is always a vision? Going to church is having a vision? Family gatherings are having visions? God always claims to be with us in these gatherings, so they are not normal conversations but visions? Why do you not think Gabriel, who was seen as a man, was having a normal conversation with Daniel.

"Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation."

Yes he had seen him in that earlier vision. This time the man Gabriel, touched him, and had a conversation with him. Who prays in their visions? Daniel was literally praying and the man Gabriel literally touched him, and they had a literal conversation.

 

[Douggg]

What I don't think you understand is that a "vision" can involve actually literally seeing something (like in a dream) or it can involve being given insight to the future. I believe the "vision" mentioned in Daniel 9:23 refers to the insight to the future that Gabriel gave to Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27 regarding "the matter" that was described earlier in Daniel 9.

So, the "vision" refers to the insight given in Daniel 9:24-27 itself rather than Daniel 9:24-27 being an explanation of a previous vision that Daniel saw, such as the vision from Daniel 8. The vision in Daniel 8 was already explained in Daniel 8:15-25, so I see no basis for thinking it would be explained again.

The problem with your argument is the vision is not first mentioned in v23, but v21. v21 establishes the vision being referred to is the one in which Daniel first encountered Gabriel in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn prophecy to take place in the time of the end.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Daniel’s 70 Weeks Correctly Explained At Last

Incorrectly!

The difference is that Christ says in Matthew 24 that not one stone would be left standing in the city of Jerusalem, and I bear witness to His very factual Word. While many says Josephus said that there was not one literal stone left standing and that is proof that Christ's words were fulfilled when every rational and logically thinking person can see that there were, are, and will be stones left standing in Jerusalem. Even as there are to this very day.

It's not about "who thinks." It's about who is presenting "scripture that actually says" what they "claim" it does, and who is not presenting scripture saying what they claim. Who is playing the martyr, and who is actually addressing the Biblical questions of Christ's Martyrdom. It's not really about diverse interpretations, it's really all about sound exegesis, methodology, comparison, and hermeneutics. Because if our assumptions are wrong, then our conclusions will be wrong. It's important to understand that our personal conclusions do not equate to biblical theology "unless" it is soundly grounded in the Bible.

Conclusions concerning AD 70 are based upon historical secular evidence and man's personal interpretation, rather than upon Scripture. The whole idea of a prophecy of God's Holy Temple in AD 70 having abomination stand in it and falling (and this be the Jewish Temple), the people of the prince being the Romans, is altogether foreign to the bible.

As I've demonstrated time and again with scripture on other forum, the Jewish Holy Temple fell at the cross in God's eyes. Yet many has added another falling in AD 70 for good measure that is never prophesied in scripture, and that conflicts with what is prophesied in scripture. It is not "stubborn" to declare that many stones were left standing one upon another in AD 70, when the prophecy in scripture calls for not one to be left standing one upon another, it's FAITHFULNESS. What is stubborn is to attempt to force those explicit scriptures to be some sort of self-serving hyperbole, while at the same time insisting that it be taken very literally when referring to a physical Temple in AD 70.

Inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Mark 14:56-59

• "For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
• And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
• We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
• But neither so did their witness agree together."

Consistency means the witness has to agree with the Biblical facts. And inconsistency is the hallmark of error. In a superficial reading of this, one might think that they were accurately witnessing the prophecy of Christ, but faithfulness requires us to see that though it might sound or "seem" somewhat right, it is in actuality false and inconsistent with what Christ actually said. Likewise, the belief that Christ's very specific prophesy that "not one stone" would be left standing one upon another (in the Temple and city) refers to AD 70, is found wanting. It sounds good when we read scripture superficially or when we listen to Josephus, but careful consideration of it (in the light of the Bible) finds the interpretation false and inconsistent with both scripture "and" the facts of history.

So, no the 70th week of Daniel 9 has nothing to do with the physical building in Jerusalem in 70AD. And no, it did not end in 70AD as flawed preterism taught.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Wrong verse. right verse - Daniel 9:21.

You cannot understand Daniel 9:23 until you acknowledge the vision in which Daniel first encountered Gabriel in Daniel 9:21.

All three of your students failed.

Ahem!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Do you know what the four winds of the heaven refer to?

 

[DavidPT]

Do you know what the four winds of the heaven refer to?

All I can do is take some educated guesses.

There are 4 main compass directions, so maybe they are connected with global.

For instance.


Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

In this verse wind seems to be meaning spirit. We can know that from the following in that chapter.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


And since this also involves 4 winds, there is this in the NT.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


These verses are telling us His elect won't be gathered from just one place locally, but will be gathered from all places globally.

But as to Daniel 7 though, that is a different context altogether, in regards to the 4 winds of heaven. But what I do notice in Daniel though, is this.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.


All 3 verses mention the four winds of heaven, therefore there is apparently a connection here between these verses, or at least between Daniel 7:2 and Daniel 8:8. Yet a lot of interpreters see no connection anywhere in Daniel 7 with that of anywhere in Daniel 8, period. Some even insist the little horn mentioned in both chapters is not even meaning the same little horn in both accounts. Even though the little horn mentioned in both accounts comes to it's end in the end of this age via the 2nd coming. But these are still not meaning the same little horn, though. Not according to the Bible though, but according to some interpreters of the Bible.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you know what the four winds of the heaven refer to?

The means whereby satellites in the atmosphere can move to assume to those decieved on earth that they are in orbit.

 

[TribulationSigns]

All I can do is take some educated guesses.

Educated guess? So you will be going to guess by interpreting the four beasts as literal empires as well? Of course, we will understand better if we compare Scripture with Scripture and it is good that you quoted all verses that mention "four winds of the heaven."

I've studied this enough to know that four beasts being literal empires. When we examine the scriptures more carefully we see that God is not interested in history lessons of worldly empires, but is illustrating spiritual truths.

Daniel 7:2-3

• "Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
• And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another[/i]."

God has inspired these truths to be written in cryptic symbolism. For example, patterned after four literal ruling Kingdoms (Babylon (Chaldea), Persian, Greece and Rome), but symbolizing a spiritual rule in the earth. These four beasts are spiritual pictures of the construct from which Satan rules, which is through carnal man. In other words, the four beasts actually symbolize systemic carnal world rule. In fact, in Revelation chapter 13 we can see these very same beasts pictured as one single beast that has all the aspects of these four beasts illustrated in Daniel chapter 7. I believe that they are four here to symbolize the "universality" of this rule of Satan over the peoples of the world (sea). The number 4 symbolizes universality. The beasts are kings, which symbolize rules. The wind many times, as you wrote correctly, is synonymous with spirit, and by this prophesy referring to "the four winds of the heaven," it implies the Holy Spirit. Everything on Earth, physical and spiritual, is under the control of God through His Holy Spirit. It restrained and loosened Satan.

Horns are symbolic of power and strength. Again, the winds of heaven here are an illustration that God ultimately controls all the universe, both good and bad (Revelation 7:7). The sea is the tumultuous world, or peoples of the world, often spoken of as humanity. And the beasts that came up from the sea "symbolize" epocs, dominions that successively emerge from the tumultuous disturbances of the world (mimicking the tumultuous sea -As Isaiah 13:4). Even when Christ calmed the tumultuous sea it was illustrating His rule over the wicked forces of the world that would destroy His disciples in their ship (symbolically Congregation). So these four kings symbolize their universal rule. Diverse or different because they differ in symbolism, purpose, and strength.

There are 4 main compass directions, so maybe they are connected with global.

Correct! The number four in Scripture signifies universality.

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

In this verse wind seems to be meaning spirit. We can know that from the following in that chapter.

Yes, Holy Spirit.

And since this also involves 4 winds, there is this in the NT.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Yes, this is talking about the rapture (gathering) of His People globally. At the last trump.

These verses are telling us His elect won't be gathered from just one place locally, but will be gathered from all places globally.

Very good.

But as to Daniel 7 though, that is a different context altogether, in regards to the 4 winds of heaven. But what I do notice in Daniel though, is this.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Okay, the symbolism is spiritual, discerned by Compare Scripture with Scirpture until the big picture comes into focus on the horns' relationship with the Four Winds. The Word of God is "in the end" about the gospel, not about political nations and rules and conquerors. Symbolism usually run consistently, and understanding them means one must study the "WHOLE" Bible, and become very familiar with it. Then God will bring it to remembrance when you are puzzling over other Scripture.

Four Winds = Universality of God's Spirit.
Mountains = Kingdoms
Heaven = The Kingdoms
Stars of Heaven = Messengers of the Kingdom (Congregation - Both Elect and Professed)
Crowns = Rule
Kings = Rulers
Horns = Power or Strength
Fruit = Works
Sword = Word
Breath or Wind = Spirit
Heads = Authority
Etc.

The understanding of this (as well as other passages of Daniel and Revelation) starts with the recognition that the host of heaven are the messengers of the kingdom, not literal stars. And the casting of some of them down, and the stamping upon them is those who falls away in the congregation, as those with the spirit of Antichrist as Satan brings them down to his level. The little horn is NOT a single man, but rather a power to rule for a little time. Symbolically, a little rule.

The symbolism that is interpreted by scripture "ALONE" is the key to understanding these books. Not interpreted by the books of Josephus or Hal Lindsay. Without justification of the figures (from the Bible, not history), we have private (personal) interpretation as I often see with Premills and Preterists. As stated, Horns in scripture are a "token" or sign of power or the 'strength' of whatever is in view. Understanding this, we can begin to understand these horns in Daniel. They represent a power that arises. Horns have always been the sign of the power of an animal or beast. Even today in most non-modern societies. And they were (and are) that same signification in the scriptures.

Psalms 89:17

• "For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted."

The signification is that in God's strength or power, and because of His unmerited favor upon us, we have the strength that lifts us up in glory. 'He' is the glory of our strength. The horn, like Israel's horn, signifies strength and power. That is God's definition for the horns. Another example:

Lamentations 2:3

• "He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

Here God uses the horn to signify just the opposite. That he has taken away the strength or power of Israel as judgment. That is what cutting off the horn of Israel means! It signifies that they have no Power.

When in scripture a horn is broken or cut off, it is symbolism of one's power is broken! Whether in conjunction with a crown where it's his ability to rule (as a king) is in view, or for something to be unable to stand or have strength before an enemy. The horn signifies power. So now when we go back to the chapters of the book of Daniel, we can also see this very same "signification" there.

Daniel 8:7

• "And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no Power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand."

The Ram "ultimately" signifies the Congregation of Israel. The two horn symbolized the power of the truthful testimony of Israel (as to why the first one was high but the second one was higher and come last is entire other study.) Just as the two witnesses represented the power of the true testimony in Revelation 11. When the horn of Israel was broken, there was no more power to stand before Satan (the he goat). Same with the power of evil when it was broken.

Daniel 8:8

• "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."

The great horn allowed him to push with power so that the Ram couldn't stand before him. For example, it 'symbolized' his great power. And likewise, when his horn is broken, it symbolizes his power being taken away.

This great horn being broken is symbolic of the death blow the Lord gave the Kingdom of Satan by dealing him with a deadly wound by the Cross. Although as a defeated foe, Satan STILL goes about as a roaring lion (a beast) seeking whom he may devour. But His power was without a doubt broken (Hebrews 2:14), or restrained so that Christ could build His Church. We understand that he still is (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7; Revelation 17:8 ) a force in the world. Or as Daniel says:

Daniel 8:22

• "Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

The great one is broken and scattered (4 being the number of universality). Christ scattered the power of the Kingdom of Satan in binding him so that He could spoil (take by right of conquest) the people of the nations of the world. But he was not eliminated from the earth. For he was Bound not for the world, but for the people chosen by Grace out of the nations. This is why the Holy Spirit restrained Satan from preventing God's people from being saved. Therefore, since the Cross, the Gentiles, or nations now not being deceived, Christ could build his Church. When the Church went to the nations who were enlightened, Satan went as an adversary. But by the Holy Spirit which Christ sent that the nations be not deceived, we are the nations being sealed of God, His Church being built. This is why Satan's power was broken and scattered towards the four winds, (Daniel 8:8 ). When he was strong, the great horn was broken, that the Lord could establish His Kingdom. This was at the cross! As it is written:

Jeremiah 31:10-11

• "Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
• For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he."

Matthew 12:28-29

• "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
• Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

Satan was the strong man, but the stronger man, Christ, did come and bind Satan so He could spoil people from his house, universality (ie. all over the world). Satan was bound from deceiving the nations as long as Christ was building the church. Until Christ first seal His servants.

Revelation 7:1-3

• "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
• And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
• Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

See? In other words, this wickedness of the nations through Satan was bound, scattered in the four winds from ever being loosed until God had first sealed (Saved) all of Israel which he intended to seal. Then and only then could this wickedness be loosed for a little season (little horn). And that is at the point where the little horn pops up where the four (without his power) are! Which brings us to the little horn.

Daniel 8:8-10

• "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
• And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
• And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

The "little" horn signifies "Power for a little" season, or power of this beast to rule for a short period of time.

Revelation 20:3

• "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

The little season Satan is loosed corresponds to this little horn. Or the power Satan has to rule with great power for a little while.

Again...

Little horn = a little time of Power! Not a Single man with supernatural power as Premills thought!

Revelation 17:10

• "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

This is the Little Horn! This short period is the little horn (power to rule a little period)! This is after all the Election are sealed (saved) and God's spirit, Holy Spirit, who have restrained Satan has been taken out of the way so Satan will be loosened from Bottomless Pit at an appointed time. God allowed Satan to loosened again for the purpose of deceiving His unfaithful people for a little period just before the Second Coming! God allows Satan to come against the Church, the "pleasant land", and deceives it so greatly that if the Lord didn't return, there would be no flesh left on earth to be raptured at His coming.

That's an overview "basically" of this type symbolism.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So when two beings have a conversation in close proximity that is always a vision? Going to church is having a vision? Family gatherings are having visions? God always claims to be with us in these gatherings, so they are not normal conversations but visions? Why do you not think Gabriel, who was seen as a man, was having a normal conversation with Daniel.

"Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation."

Yes he had seen him in that earlier vision. This time the man Gabriel, touched him, and had a conversation with him. Who prays in their visions? Daniel was literally praying and the man Gabriel literally touched him, and they had a literal conversation.

Congratulations on completely misinterpreting what I was saying. Excellent job. That's not easy to do.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The problem with your argument is the vision is not first mentioned in v23, but v21. v21 establishes the vision being referred to is the one in which Daniel first encountered Gabriel in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn prophecy to take place in the time of the end.

No, it does not. The vision in Daniel 8 was already explained in Daniel 8:15-25 and didn't need to be explained again.

Let's take a look at the passage in question:

Daniel 9:20
20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

In verse 21, the Daniel is not putting the focus on the earlier vision, he is putting the focus on Gabriel. And he simply pointed out that Gabriel was the same one he had seen before who had explained the earlier vision recorded in Daniel 8. He was not making that vision his focus at all.

So, with that being the case, there's no basis for thinking that verse 23 is referring back to verse 21. If Daniel's focus in verse 21 was on the earlier vision rather than Gabriel himself, you'd have a point, but that is not the case.

What Gabriel was saying in verse 23 is for Daniel to "understand the matter" that is described earlier in Daniel 9 and to consider the vision/insight that he was about to give him in verses 24-27 regarding that matter described earlier in Daniel 9 regarding Israel's sins that Daniel was praying about.

 

[Douggg]

No, it does not. The vision in Daniel 8 was already explained in Daniel 8:15-25 and didn't need to be explained again.

Daniel 8 did not provide the information of the little horn person confirming the covenant for 7 years.

Information pertaining to the little horn person has been expanded over time. First in Daniel 7. Then in Daniel 8. Then in Daniel 9. Then in Daniel 11. And then in the new testament as the Antichrist. Followed by being the revealed man of sin, who commits the transgression of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:3-4. Then in Revelation, as the rider on the white horse, and later as the beast.

In verse 21, the Daniel is not putting the focus on the earlier vision, he is putting the focus on Gabriel. And he simply pointed out that Gabriel was the same one he had seen before who had explained the earlier vision recorded in Daniel 8. He was not making that vision his focus at all.

Daniel connected Gabriel to the vision in Daniel 8. And Gabriel expounded on that vision, that the little horn person would come from the people who destroy the temple and city. And that the little horn will confirm the covenant for 7 years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Daniel connected Gabriel to the vision in Daniel 8. And Gabriel expounded on that vision, that the little horn person would come from the people who destroy the temple and city. And that the little horn will confirm the covenant for 7 years.

Again, the focus in Daniel 8:21 is not on the vision that Gabriel explained to Daniel before (which we know is recorded in Daniel 8), it's on the fact that it was Gabriel who was coming to Daniel again to explain another prophecy.

So, Daniel 9:23 is NOT referring back to Daniel 9:21, as you believe. That would only be the case if the vision itself was the main focus of Daniel 9:21, but it's not. It simply points out that the same one who appeared to Daniel before (as recorded in Daniel 8), Gabriel, was the one appearing to him again to give him a new prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah, King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord. John 12:12-15. 483 years complete.

Hailed as Messiah by whom, though?

Were the disciples in that crowd?

There were many different groups in ancient Jerusalem at that time.....and they all believed different things about Jesus and what the purpose of the Messiah actually was....and what it would look like for Israel to be redeemed or restored at that point (and from what or who).