Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[pasifika]

This seems awful clear.

Love is ultimately action and can be and is commanded, and Love is from more than the heart (Mark12:30)

Love Neighbor (and thus Love God per 1John4)) is a summary of 6 of the 10-C (Matt19:19 cf. Rom3:19) and "any other [applicable] commandment" (Rom13:9) like impartiality (James2:8-9) and bearing a grudge (Lev19:18). If no 10-C then no list then no summary command and actually no Torah or Tanakh (Matt22:40).

Jesus quite clearly ties love for Him to keeping His commandments - His Word (John14:21-24). No obedience in thought & action then no love.

Pebbles and shallow arguments, indeed...

Where does this lack of understanding of Biblical Love and this antinomianism come from? It's really a problem.

Hi, the Love of God according to the commandments is only found in Christ Romans 8:39.

 

[GDL]

I don't think that anyone has claimed that what is listed in the Ten Commandments exhaustively describes the way to obey the greatest two commandments

Agreed. Nor did Paul:

NKJ Rom. 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

 

[Bob S]

Ryan wrote:

Try reading them

And Christ's own affirmation that they are all based on Love - as He says in Matt 22.

Your snide comments do nothing for your credibility. Neither does your answer.

What do you mean" based on love" then use Matt22:37-39 to prove your point??? Jesus was quoting from the book of the Law. All the verses you conjure up will not change the fact that the ten do not say they are about love nor use the word "Love"

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

 

[GDL]

Hi, the Love of God according to the commandments is only found in Christ Romans 8:39.

Hi back to you.

No disagreement about Jesus Christ being God who is Love.

A few thoughts in response:

• Rom8:39 doesn't specifically say that:
• NKJ Rom 8:37-39 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Through Him - through His love of/for God - we are more than conquerors, and nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord - or from the love for God which is in Jesus our Lord - or both. This is one of those many times the translation of "of" can get interesting.
• We in Christ and Christ Jesus in us is conforming us to His likeness. His perfect love for our Father - His perfect love residing in us - is bringing us to obedience which is love for God which is the opposite of sin/lawlessness/righteousness per 1John. That's what this "conquerors" is all about.
• NKJ Heb 5:8-9 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
• Like the first-born Brother and Lord - like His siblings - learning obedience (which is Love for God & Neighbor) into perfection.
• This thread, like so many before it, is the quibbling concerning obedience to what. I side against antinomianism and with those who learn in part in Christ in Spirit from God's Law what is Love for God. On this basis, God is Love in part means He and His perfect character is contained in His commanded standards of righteousness that He instructs and commands us to conform/be conformed to. In Christ through Spirit led obedience to His commanded standards now being written on hearts - we become more and more like Him - Perfect Love (1John 5:2) - and we are conquerors through Him as He is The Conqueror.

 

[GDL]

the ten do not say they are about love nor use the word "Love"

The Ten are Love (Deut. 7:9; 11:1, 22; 19:9; 30:16; Jos. 22:5; Neh. 1:5; Dan. 9:4; Rom 13:9-10; 1 Jn. 5:2-3).

 

[pasifika]

Try reading them

And Christ's own affirmation that they are all based on Love - as He says in Matt 22.



"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3 which includes the commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 -- as Christ points out in Matt 22.

But all this is just "so much scripture to be ignored" if one is determined to reject the point Christ makes in Matt 22

Hi back to you.

No disagreement about Jesus Christ being God who is Love.

A few thoughts in response:

• Rom8:39 doesn't specifically say that:
• NKJ Rom 8:37-39 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Through Him - through His love of/for God - we are more than conquerors, and nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord - or from the love for God which is in Jesus our Lord - or both. This is one of those many times the translation of "of" can get interesting.
• We in Christ and Christ Jesus in us is conforming us to His likeness. His perfect love for our Father - His perfect love residing in us - is bringing us to obedience which is love for God which is the opposite of sin/lawlessness/righteousness per 1John. That's what this "conquerors" is all about.
• NKJ Heb 5:8-9 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
• Like the first-born Brother and Lord - like His siblings - learning obedience (which is Love for God & Neighbor) into perfection.
• This thread, like so many before it, is the quibbling concerning obedience to what. I side against antinomianism and with those who learn in part in Christ in Spirit from God's Law what is Love for God. On this basis, God is Love in part means He and His perfect character is contained in His commanded standards of righteousness that He instructs and commands us to conform/be conformed to. In Christ through Spirit led obedience to His commanded standards now being written on hearts - we become more and more like Him - Perfect Love (1John 5:2) - and we are conquerors through Him as He is The Conqueror.

Hi, Romans 8:39......and nothing can separate from the Love of God which is "IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD"...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi, Romans 8:39......and nothing can separate from the Love of God which is "IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD"...

God's love to us is everlasting and He loves us, even if we don't love Him, but that doesn't mean He is not going to judge us or fulfill His promise of eternal life or condemnation based on our own decisions. Even though God loves us, He will not force us to love Him, which is shown through our obedience to His commandments. 1 John 5:3 God does not let go of us, we let go of Him through our choices.

 

[Bob S]

The Ten are Love (Deut. 7:9; 11:1, 22; 19:9; 30:16; Jos. 22:5; Neh. 1:5; Dan. 9:4; Rom 13:9-10; 1 Jn. 5:2-3).

Please show us one verse in all the verses you presented below that tells us any of the ten commandments are about love. Why don't you all read the verses before you post them? Posting verses that do not pertain to the subject surely doesn't add to reliability.


9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

11 “Therefore you shall love the Lord your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him—

9 because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.

16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

5 But take careful heed to do the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to keep His commandments, to hold fast to Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul

5 And I said: “I pray, Lord God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments,

9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Please show us one verse in all the verses you presented below that tells us any of the ten commandments are about love. Why don't you all read the verses before you post them? Posting verses that do not pertain to the subject surely doesn't add to reliability.


9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

11 “Therefore you shall love the Lord your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him—

9 because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.

16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

5 But take careful heed to do the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to keep His commandments, to hold fast to Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul

5 And I said: “I pray, Lord God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments,

9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

First you would need to prove the Ten Commandments are not "God's commandments" to make this case. God said they are and said they are about love and did so right in the middle of the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:6

 

[GDL]

Please show us one verse in all the verses you presented below that tells us any of the ten commandments are about love. Why don't you all read the verses before you post them? Posting verses that do not pertain to the subject surely doesn't add to reliability.


9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

11 “Therefore you shall love the Lord your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him—

9 because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.

16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

5 But take careful heed to do the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to keep His commandments, to hold fast to Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul

5 And I said: “I pray, Lord God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments,

9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

It's really very simple, Bob, this is all parallelism, just like John confirms for us in 1 John - love for God is keeping His Commandments and thus vice versa, keeping God commandments is Love for God. And Love Neighbor is keeping God's commandments, as Paul is explaining to us in Romans - Love Neighbor is a summary of God's commandments - so, if we're doing God's commandments, then we're Loving Neighbor.

So, when we're keeping any of the 10, we're Loving God, and when we're keeping the ones that apply to people, we're Loving Neighbor, and we're Loving God.

Once you grasp this, you'll see that all the verses I posted for you are saying this. Maybe you'll also stop the aggression toward fellow Christians.

 

[pasifika]

God's love to us is everlasting and He loves us, even if we don't love Him, but that doesn't mean He is not going to judge us or fulfill His promise of eternal life or condemnation based on our own decisions. Even though God loves us, He will not force us to love Him, which is shown through our obedience to His commandments. 1 John 5:3 God does not let go of us, we let go of Him through our choices.

Hi SB, I think God also wants us to love Him just as He loved Us. The problem is, we cannot love God in return on our own "sinful nature" because of sins.

...1John 4:10 "This is love..Not that "we" Love God, But that He loves us..

We cannot love God in return "unless" He loved Us "First"..1John 4:19

Hence, Love fulfilled all commandments..Romans

 

[Bob S]

First you would need to prove the Ten Commandments are not "God's commandments" to make this case. God said they are and said they are about love and did so right in the middle of the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:6

Why would I ever try to prove the ten were God's commands? Of course, they were. Scripture Says they were. Of course, you will not consider all of the evidence like Eph2:15, 2Cor3:6-11 and Gal 3:19 telling Jews they are no longer under any of the laws found in the old covenant. Gentiles never were. Now we are all under the Royal Law of Love. Loving others through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives keeps us from harming others in any way. By the way, I wonder just how many more ways we could do harm to our neighbors besides the nine ways found in temporary and now defunct ten commandments?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, I think God also wants us to love Him just as He loved Us. The problem is, we cannot love God in return on our own "sinful nature" because of sins.

...1John 4:10 "This is love..Not that "we" Love God, But that He loves us..

We cannot love God in return "unless" He loved Us "First"..1John 4:19

Hence, Love fulfilled all commandments..Romans

Hey pasifika.

Scripture says we need to obey first…

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

If we love Him, we keep His commandments and then Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit so He can continue to abide in us and gives us the power to overcome sin.

The law of the Lord is perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7 which is why obedience to His commandments is so powerful.

It comes down to our choices, Jesus is not going to force us to make the right daily choices, but when we obey He gives us His Spirit so we don’t have to do it alone.

Love fulfills the commandments when we are keeping them 1 John 5:3, just like when we are not keeping them, its no longer love to God.

 

[pasifika]

Hey pasifika.

Scripture says we need to obey first…

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

If we love Him, we keep His commandments and then Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit so He can continue to abide in us and gives us the power to overcome sin.

The law of the Lord is perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7 which is why obedience to His commandments is so powerful.

It comes down to our choices, Jesus is not going to force us to make the right daily choices, but when we obey He gives us His Spirit so we don’t have to do it alone.

Love fulfills the commandments when we are keeping them 1 John 5:3, just like when we are not keeping them, its no longer love to God.

Hi SB, scriptures also stated that man cannot seek God! Romans 3:11, man are also accustomed to do evil than good Jeremiah 13:23, the heart is deceitful Jeremiah 17 etc...

That is the state of a sinful man..."slave to sin"

Then, comes this; 1 Corinthians 1:30.."It is "because of God that you're in Christ Jesus...

In here, God has to act first and continued to act until we are in Christ Jesus...


So, going back to the verse you quoted from John 15:14.."If you love Me, keep My commandments...

We, can only Love Him if He "first" Loved Us..1John 4

The ones who chose to love God, are the ones whom God chose to love..

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, scriptures also stated that man cannot seek God! Romans 3:11, man are also accustomed to do evil than good Jeremiah 13:23, the heart is deceitful Jeremiah 17 etc...

That is the state of a sinful man..."slave to sin"

Then, comes this; 1 Corinthians 1:30.."It is "because of God that you're in Christ Jesus...

In here, God has to act first and continued to act until we are in Christ Jesus...


So, going back to the verse you quoted from John 15:14.."If you love Me, keep My commandments...

We, can only Love Him if He "first" Loved Us..1John 4

The ones who chose to love God, are the ones whom God chose to love..

God first loved us no doubt, and if we love Him we keep His commandments.

God has programmed all of us to seek Him, some listen, some don’t, but He never forces and gives us free will to fully seek and follow Him.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

James 2:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

 

[Leaf473]

If we are showing our love to God by keeping commandments from the law of Moses, we will also be keeping this commandment from Leviticus,

You shall sow your field six years, and you shall prune your vineyard six years, and gather in its fruits. But in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the Lord. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard.

 

[GDL]

If we are showing our love to God by keeping commandments from the law of Moses, we will also be keeping this commandment from Leviticus,

You shall sow your field six years, and you shall prune your vineyard six years, and gather in its fruits. But in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the Lord. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard.

Unless this is part of God's Law that was just for Israel under the OC era - like the animal sacrifice laws and the laws for the Aaronic Priesthood, etc.

I'm sure: there's some wisdom to be gained from this and every Law of God (Jer8:8); the fear of the Lord begins wisdom & knowledge (Ps110:10; Prov9:10; Prov1:7); and that fear of the Lord, love for the Lord and keeping His commandments are just as interwoven and applicable today as they were in the Mosaic era (Deut10:12-13). And then there's Paul telling us about the value for instruction/training in Righteousness of all God-breathed Scripture so we can be capable for completion of every good work (2Tim3:16-17).

Actually, if one studies industrial era farming and associated loss of nutritional values of foods, there's an argument that we should be gaining such wisdom from fear of the Lord/knowledge/wisdom/love/keeping His commandments. And then there's the gleaning laws for feeding of the poor, and then.........

 

[Leaf473]

Unless this is part of God's Law that was just for Israel under the OC era - like the animal sacrifice laws and the laws for the Aaronic Priesthood, etc.

Yes, that would be the key for those who want to show love for God by keeping only some of the law of Moses, wouldn't it? That's also where things get fuzzy, based on my experience in talking to my brothers and sisters who feel that way.

These are the statutes, ordinances, and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in Mount Sinai by Moses.
-Leviticus

 

[GDL]

Yes, that would be the key for those who want to show love for God by keeping only some of the law of Moses, wouldn't it? That's also where things get fuzzy, based on my experience in talking to my brothers and sisters who feel that way.

These are the statutes, ordinances, and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in Mount Sinai by Moses.
-Leviticus

As we've discussed before, you and I, I think the "fuzzy" enters, in part, from a lack of work and introspection in the Scriptures on this topic of Law as well as from a natural and, unfortunately, widely taught bias against written Law.

And, yes, as you say, "keeping only some of the law of Moses." At the current time, I'm one of those who thinks the Law of Moses as a unit was ended with the Mosaic Covenant and era, and a change in Law was made (Hebrews), not only to facilitate the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ in this NC era, but also to end animal sacrifice and the Aaronic Priesthood and certain Laws that may have had to do with separation of Jews and Gentiles (although Gentile proselytes could join Israel and Israel was to be a Priest Nation to the nations). But, on the other hand, any Commandment that can be summarized under the Love Neighbor commandment of Torah, and any other commandments (besides the Love for Neighbor commandments) that are still active that can be summarized under Love for God commandments from Torah, are all part of the changed Law in Christ. The fulfillment of Messianic Law requires being knowledgeable of all sin/lawlessness and assisting one another if/when caught in any sin/lawlessness to be restored to order (Gal6:1-2). The bulk of lawlessness is stated and taught in OC written Law.

From there, as we've discussed, you and I, it's all a matter of what wisdom about and of God can be gleaned from studying all His commandments. For example, how the animal sacrifices taught about the final Sacrifice, etc.

 

[Bob S]

I am one to believe every law found in the old covenant ended at Calvary where Jesus ratified the new and better covenant. First of all, the old covenant was for only one nation. The remainder of the Earth's population went clear back to Noah and is called the Noahide covenant. That covenant consisted, according to our Jewish friends, seven laws dealing with morality, how we treat each other and our God. Although the old covenant ended and its laws are no longer in effect, laws dealing with morality are until we do not need laws anymore. The one great law of the new covenant is for all mankind to love others as Jesus loves us. This one law given to us by Jesus covers every aspect of morality.