Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[GDL]

There are a lot of blanks and details to be answered between the perceived Noahide Laws and the great commandments of the OC Mosaic Law to Love God and Neighbor. Thankfully we have the greatest written revelation of God's Law in the Tanakh. If we have any question about the details of loving God and Neighbor, we have Torah to draw from in the Light of the NC in Christ in Spirit. Typically, those who reject the value of the written Law seem to desire to self-define what Biblical Love is and includes. This ends up in autonomy, which is self-law.

 

[Leaf473]

As we've discussed before, you and I, I think the "fuzzy" enters, in part, from a lack of work and introspection in the Scriptures on this topic of Law as well as from a natural and, unfortunately, widely taught bias against written Law.

And, yes, as you say, "keeping only some of the law of Moses." At the current time, I'm one of those who thinks the Law of Moses as a unit was ended with the Mosaic Covenant and era, and a change in Law was made (Hebrews), not only to facilitate the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ in this NC era, but also to end animal sacrifice and the Aaronic Priesthood and certain Laws that may have had to do with separation of Jews and Gentiles (although Gentile proselytes could join Israel and Israel was to be a Priest Nation to the nations). But, on the other hand, any Commandment that can be summarized under the Love Neighbor commandment of Torah, and any other commandments (besides the Love for Neighbor commandments) that are still active that can be summarized under Love for God commandments from Torah, are all part of the changed Law in Christ. The fulfillment of Messianic Law requires being knowledgeable of all sin/lawlessness and assisting one another if/when caught in any sin/lawlessness to be restored to order (Gal6:1-2). The bulk of lawlessness is stated and taught in OC written Law.

From there, as we've discussed, you and I, it's all a matter of what wisdom about and of God can be gleaned from studying all His commandments. For example, how the animal sacrifices taught about the final Sacrifice, etc.

Would you be willing to post the scripture references for those parts of the law of Moses that you feel are part of loving your neighbor?

Fear God and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it is good, or whether it is evil.
-Ecclesiastes

 

[expos4ever]

Typically, those who reject the value of the written Law seem to desire to self-define what Biblical Love is and includes.

Really? Please name one poster who holds to this position.

 

[expos4ever]

Of course, you will not consider all of the evidence like Eph2:15, 2Cor3:6-11 and Gal 3:19 telling Jews they are no longer under any of the laws found in the old covenant. Gentiles never were.

Bingo. If you want to witness acts of exegetical desperation, just read through the contrived, head-scratching arguments we get about how Eph 2:15 does not do away with the Law of Moses.

In their ardor to morph Paul's (or whoever the author of Ephesians was) words to force-fit their view that the Law remains, they have come up with such bizarre explanations as the "barriers on the temple grounds" tale wherein Paul is not, despite his clear words to the contrary, saying that the Law is the barrier that has been torn down, but rather it are these barriers on temple grounds that have been torn down (or something to that effect).

However, Paul's statement about "a barrier being torn down" comes in the middle of a rather lengthy story about how removal of this barrier will unite Jew and Gentile. Of course, these posters will tell us that the removal of these signs in the courtyard do indeed achieve that end. Well maybe so, but only in a very localized and specific setting.

What they cannot explain, however, is how the Jew and Gentile can possibly be united when the very thing - the massive edifice of the Law of Moses, with all its details that so clearly demarcate Jew from Gentile - remains in force.

You want a barrier? That is a barrier.

Or they somehow latch onto the word "ordnance" which can, repeat can, refer to man-made edicts in some settings, and claim that we are being told the doing away of man-made traditions brings Jew and Gentile together. How does that work, exactly, especially since the Law, which largely functioned to mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile, remains in force?

 

[GDL]

Would you be willing to post the scripture references for those parts of the law of Moses that you feel are part of loving your neighbor?

Fear God and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it is good, or whether it is evil.
-Ecclesiastes

I don't have a list. It's something I've wanted to work on in Scripture but have never done. I've done all the NC commands and some years later saw a list online, which I never compared to mine. This is a 1,000+/- list of commands.

I'd certainly begin with:

1. Paul's list from the 10C - Rom13:9-10
2. It's Paul's catch-all clause in Rom13:9 "and if there is any other commandment" - that sends us searching for more.
3. Jesus' statement in Matt19:18-19 adds another of the 10C to Paul's list for Love Neighbor - so we have 6 of 10 between Jesus and Paul - then Jesus says if you want to be Perfect then follow me.
   1. This "Perfect" topic sends us at minimum to Heb5:14 which says those who are Perfect/Mature have well-exercised faculties to judge both good and bad according to the Word of Righteousness (Heb5:13) - so we now have whatever all of good and bad is added to the 10C list/Love Neighbor. I think this goes with Paul's catch-all clause.
4. James2 ties being impartial (a characteristic of God) to Love Neighbor and helping those in need as Jesus did with the Good Samaritan lesson. He also speaks of the 10C there.
5. So, 10C list re: people/neighbors, impartiality, and whatever else applies to good vs. bad according to the Word of Righteousness as He leads us to perfection.
6. I'd also look at the context of Lev19:18 and note that it is in a couplet that has to do with rebuking a fellow countryman/neighbor who is out-of-line and needs correction. So, Love Neighbor is actually in this context, which IMO ties to the Heb5 ability of the Mature to judge such a matter and then to Gal6 where the Spiritual (one way Paul refers to the Mature) Christian is able to identify any sin/lawlessness (virtually the same thing Heb5 Mature can do) and assist a Christian out of sin/lawlessness. So, now we have another tie of Love Neighbor to being learned/skilled (Heb5 language) in what is sin/lawlessness.

An important body of work IMO. I know of some in the Reformed group who have worked on such studies but know of nothing exhaustive. @Soyeong referred me to a set of books from a Messianic group that may have such a work.

Ecc12:13-14 is one of my favorite pieces of Scripture. Wisdom boiling it down to what really matters and it's timeless. I like how you applied it to this topic. I do the same.

 

[GDL]

Really? Please name one poster who holds to this position.

Once again, please do your own research, or don't. This forum offers some decent search tools.

I've experienced several discussions about undefined Love on this forum and within various Christian communities. It's also fairly typical that such will say a summary does not include what it summarizes, therefore negating the explanations of what Love Neighbor includes and thus means. They will inevitably rest on there being no need of written Law because the Spirit doesn't use it in His instruction and leading. This is one of your positions, isn't it? Yes or no or no answer will suffice.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't have a list. It's something I've wanted to work on in Scripture but have never done. I've done all the NC commands and some years later saw a list online, which I never compared to mine. This is a 1,000+/- list of commands.

I'd certainly begin with:

1. Paul's list from the 10C - Rom13:9-10
2. It's Paul's catch-all clause in Rom13:9 "and if there is any other commandment" - that sends us searching for more.
3. Jesus' statement in Matt19:18-19 adds another of the 10C to Paul's list for Love Neighbor - so we have 6 of 10 between Jesus and Paul - then Jesus says if you want to be Perfect then follow me.
   1. This "Perfect" topic sends us at minimum to Heb5:14 which says those who are Perfect/Mature have well-exercise faculties to judge both good and bad according to the Word of Righteousness (Heb5:13) - so we now have whatever all of good and bad is added to the 10C list/Love Neighbor. I think this goes with Paul's catch-all clause.
4. James2 ties being impartial (a characteristic of God) to Love Neighbor and helping those in need as Jesus did with the Good Samaritan lesson. He also speaks of the 10C there.
5. So, 10C list re: people/neighbors, impartiality, and whatever else applies to good vs. bad according to the Word of Righteousness as He leads us to perfection.
6. I'd also look at the context of Lev19:18 and note that it is in a couplet that has to do with rebuking a fellow countryman/neighbor who is out-of-line and needs correction. So, Love Neighbor is actually in this context, which IMO ties to the Heb5 ability of the Mature to judge such a matter and then to Gal6 where the Spiritual (one way Paul refers to the Mature) Christian is able to identify any sin/lawlessness (virtually the same thing Heb5 Mature can do) and assist a Christian out of sin/lawlessness. So, now we have another tie of Love Neighbor to being learned/skilled (Heb5 language) in what is sin/lawlessness.

An important body of work IMO. I know of some in the Reformed group who have worked on such studies but know of nothing exhaustive. @Soyeong referred me to a set of books from a Messianic group that may have such a work.

Ecc12:13-14 is one of my favorite pieces of Scripture. Wisdom boiling it down to what really matters and it's timeless. I like how you applied it to this topic. I do the same.

Well, umm... I'm confused. Do you say that it's important to show our love for God by following some of the law of Moses? And that it's important to have that in the form of a written code? But you haven't looked for that code?

 

[pasifika]

God first loved us no doubt, and if we love Him we keep His commandments.

God has programmed all of us to seek Him, some listen, some don’t, but He never forces and gives us free will to fully seek and follow Him.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

James 2:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

There is no doubt if God loves us, then we love Him back in return, is not because of ourselves but because of His love in us draws us closer to Him..

Yes, God has program all to seek Him, yet "Sin" distorted that program and made us unwilling to seek Him (Rom 3:11) We became Slaves of Sin as a servant to a master..Romans 6.

A "slave" don't have "free will", his or her master determines whether he stand or fall (Romans 14).

coming back to commands keeping which shows our love for God, I believe you meant commandments given under Old covenant (Sinai Covenant).

Do you familiar in how the old covenant commandments were agreed upon when God gave it to the children of Israel in Sinai? Exodus 19:7,8.

Who fulfills the keeping of the old covenant is it God or the people? Exodus 19:8

 

[GDL]

Well, umm... I'm confused. Do you say that it's important to show our love for God by following some of the law of Moses? And that it's important to have that in the form of a written code? But you haven't looked for that code?

Hopefully your stated confusion is that and not insinuation of anything else.

I'm saying that some of the Law of Moses is part of the NC, such as Love Neighbor and Love God, both of which are from Torah.

And, yes, I'm saying I have never personally worked on such a list. I have read over years several lengthy scholarly research books on the Law issue, as well as many scholarly articles, as well as some Messianic perspectives, and I have done some personal studies tracking and attempting to understand legal terminology through the entire Text. I have study documents with every verse that uses the Greek nomos, Hebrew torah, English law, and similar compilations of other related legal words, like righteousness, lawlessness, sin, transgression, just, etc...

There's a reason these topics are still debated. They are arduous and complex studies (welcome to the mind of God and the world of ancient literature, not to mention God's sovereignty - the God who has ultimate control over human capacity for thought and illumination); most have other works and teachings they've had to focus on (I know I have and some topics take years to get a handle on some of the depth involved); and there's the fact that it is ultimately God who provides the knowledge and understanding He wants known when He wants it understood for His purposes.

I'm satisfied I'm at least somewhat close to where He wants me to be and ultimately on His schedule. How about you?

 

[expos4ever]

Once again, please do your own research, or don't. This forum offers some decent search tools.

You made a claim:

Typically, those who reject the value of the written Law seem to desire to self-define what Biblical Love is and includes.

If this was true, it would seem that you could name one or more posters in this, or other threads, who "self-define what Biblical Love is".

It is your claim, it is incumbent on you to support it when challenged.

They will inevitably rest on there being no need of written Law because the Spirit doesn't use it in His instruction and leading. This is one of your positions, isn't it? Yes or no or no answer will suffice.

You have posed your question in a manner that does not lend itself to a simple yes or no. I never posted anything about "what the Spirit does and does not use". Having said that, I do reiterate what I have repeatedly said: we look to the indwelling Spirit, and to the teachings of Jesus, for guidance. Certainly not the Law - Paul could not be more clear: it is not to be used.

Either way, to say I rely on the indwelling Spirit is certainly not remotely close to self-defining Biblical Love, this should be quite clear.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no doubt if God loves us, then we love Him back in return, is not because of ourselves but because of His love in us draws us closer to Him..

God loves us first, but how do we show love to God according to the scriptures?

Yes, God has program all to seek Him, yet "Sin" distorted that program and made us unwilling to seek Him (Rom 3:11) We became Slaves of Sin as a servant to a master..Romans 6.

A "slave" don't have "free will", his or her master determines whether he stand or fall (Romans 14).

Sin is a choice, it has been that way from the very beginning, no one forces anyone to sin, No one forced Lucifer, to sin, God gives everyone free will, anything else is not true love, which is what God wants. We either give in to sin and are a salve to sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 or we choose to be a slave to God. One leads to condemnation, the other to righteousness Romans 6:16

coming back to commands keeping which shows our love for God, I believe you meant commandments given under Old covenant (Sinai Covenant).

God wrote His laws from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant Jer 31:34, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 instead of deleting them. Some laws changed in the New Covenant like the earthy priesthood and animal sacrifices Hebrews 10:1-10, Col 2:14-17 as they all point to Jesus, but none of God's commandments ended in the New Covenant and not keeping God's commandments is still a sin Romans 7:7 and keeping them is still how we show love to God 1 John 5:3 John 15:10

Do you familiar in how the old covenant commandments were agreed upon when God gave it to the children of Israel in Sinai? Exodus 19:7,8.Who fulfills the keeping of the old covenant is it God or the people? Exodus 19:8

Yes, in the Old Covenant the Israelites said we will do. In the New Covenant God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10 and enables us through the Holy Spirit to keep them. We still have our part in keeping the commandments by the choices we make, but He gives us the power, so we do not have to keep them all by ourselves. John 14:15-18. It’s through the transformation of the Holy Spirit, when we are reborn in Christ we want to keep His commandments through love. It’s why the disciples said we need to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith, the commandments are like a mirror, so we know what not to do. Romans 7:7 those in Christ uphold the law through faith Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12

 

[Leaf473]

Hopefully your stated confusion is that and not insinuation of anything else.

I'm saying that some of the Law of Moses is part of the NC, such as Love Neighbor and Love God, both of which are from Torah.

And, yes, I'm saying I have never personally worked on such a list. I have read over years several lengthy scholarly research books on the Law issue, as well as many scholarly articles, as well as some Messianic perspectives, and I have done some personal studies tracking and attempting to understand legal terminology through the entire Text. I have study documents with every verse that uses the Greek nomos, Hebrew torah, English law, and similar compilations of other related legal words, like righteousness, lawlessness, sin, transgression, just, etc...

There's a reason these topics are still debated. They are arduous and complex studies (welcome to the mind of God and the world of ancient literature, not to mention God's sovereignty - the God who has ultimate control over human capacity for thought and illumination); most have other works and teachings they've had to focus on (I know I have and some topics take years to get a handle on some of the depth involved); and there's the fact that it is ultimately God who provides the knowledge and understanding He wants known when He wants it understood for His purposes.

I'm satisfied I'm at least somewhat close to where He wants me to be and ultimately on His schedule. How about you?

Yes, I was truly confused about what you were saying.

And Yes, some parts of the law of Moses are quoted in the post-Resurrection part of the New Testament. But in that case, I assume, we would be keeping them because the apostles specifically taught those laws.

I'll try to clarify what I'm asking: are you willing to share scripture references for your list of those parts of the law of Moses
that are not quoted in the book of Acts onward
that you want to keep in order to show your love for God?
If you don't have a such a list, why not? If your list is only partial, are you willing to post that?

Am I on God's schedule for discerning right and wrong? I think so. I'm sure I could do better.

Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3

 

[GDL]

You made a claim:

Typically, those who reject the value of the written Law seem to desire to self-define what Biblical Love is and includes.

If this was true, it would seem that you could name one or more posters in this, or other threads, who "self-define what Biblical Love is".

It is your claim, it is incumbent on you to support it when challenged.

You have posed your question in a manner that does not lend itself to a simple yes or no. I never posted anything about "what the Spirit does and does not use". Having said that, I do reiterate what I have repeatedly said: we look to the indwelling Spirit, and to the teachings of Jesus, for guidance. Certainly not the Law - Paul could not be more clear: it is not to be used.

Either way, to say I rely on the indwelling Spirit is certainly not remotely close to self-defining Biblical Love, this should be quite clear.

We've been through this merry-go-round discussion. Thanks, but I have no desire to repeat it, nor do I think I need to comply with any rules you care to establish for discussion with you. Nor will I go back through threads history for you. As I've said before, do your own research.

You like to set rules, but when I go through work in Scripture that shows your interpretation(s) to be easily questionable and even wrong, you seem to miss the work and simply repeat your positions. There's another claim for you. And I'll simply refer you back to the other thread we recently discussed in to see if this claim is true. Look mainly at some work in Romans7 if I recall correctly. That's one of a few.

BTW, note the word "seem" in my statement. If it doesn't fit you, IYO, then classify yourself under the leeway provided for in this word.

So, what has the Holy Spirit taught you about Biblical Love? Is it a feeling of love - you feel love therefore you are loving? Is it actions? Is it both? What are some actions that define or explain what Biblical Love for God and Neighbor are? Will we see the same things in the Word of God - maybe in God's Law He gave to Moses? How will we know that you never read them in God's Word, but instead you were taught them personally by the Spirit? If I disagree with you that something you think is Love for Neighbor is not Love for Neighbor and I can show you from the Word of God why it's not, will you reject God's Word in favor of your professed personal leading by the Spirit and simply view God's Word and my referral to it as wrong because the Spirit told you such?

As I said, I've no desire to repeat an unproductive discussion with you, so please feel free to ignore my above questions.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, I was truly confused about what you were saying.

And Yes, some parts of the law of Moses are quoted in the post-Resurrection part of the New Testament. But in that case, I assume, we would be keeping them because the apostles specifically taught those laws.

I'll try to clarify what I'm asking: are you willing to share scripture references for your list of those parts of the law of Moses
that are not quoted in the book of Acts onward
that you want to keep in order to show your love for God?
If you don't have a such a list, why not? If your list is only partial, are you willing to post that?

Am I on God's schedule for discerning right and wrong? I think so. I'm sure I could do better.

Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3

(Now I've got Bob Dylan's Pressing On going in my head. Here's the official audio to his live performance.)

 

[GDL]

Yes, I was truly confused about what you were saying.

OK.

And Yes, some parts of the law of Moses are quoted in the post-Resurrection part of the New Testament. But in that case, I assume, we would be keeping them because the apostles specifically taught those laws.

I hate to use a typical provocative example, but is Lev18:23 repeated in the NC? OK now if it isn't?

I'll try to clarify what I'm asking: are you willing to share scripture references for your list of those parts of the law of Moses
that are not quoted in the book of Acts onward
that you want to keep in order to show your love for God?
If you don't have a such a list, why not? If your list is only partial, are you willing to post that?

Asked and answered but see one command above.

Am I on God's schedule for discerning right and wrong? I think so. I'm sure I could do better.

Good answer. Same for me.

Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3

What's the perfection Paul is pursuing here - Maturity I previously mentioned or beyond?

 

[Leaf473]

OK.

I hate to use a typical provocative example, but is Lev18:23 repeated in the NC? OK now if it isn't?

Asked and answered but see one command above.

Good answer. Same for me.

What's the perfection Paul is pursuing here - Maturity I previously mentioned or beyond?

I think Lev18:23 is a great commandment to bring up. (I don't see it as provocative )

Not quoted in the NC.
Is it a commandment that we would keep in order to show our love for God? No.

Is it something we should do? No. Why? Because it doesn't sound right to my spirit.

Yes, I agree that you had already answered whether you had a list. But, it looks like you do have a partial list: the ten commandments plus Leviticus 18:23. Are you willing to post any others that you have already made a decision about?

What's the perfection? I don't know, for sure. The best explanation I've seen so far comes from The Message Bible,
"I’m not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made."

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3 - The Message

To Know Him Personally - And that’s about it, friends. Be glad in God! I don’t mind repeating what I have written in earlier letters, and I hope you don’t mind hearing it again. Better safe than sorry—so here goes. Steer clear of the barking dogs, those religious busybodies, all bark and no...

www.biblegateway.com

"Having it all together" would be the perfection. Does that answer your question?

 

[GDL]

I think Lev18:23 is a great commandment to bring up. (I don't see it as provocative )

Not quoted in the NC.
Is it a commandment that we would keep in order to show our love for God? No.

1John5:3 keeping God's commandments IS love for God. Doing what God commands to do is love for God. Not doing what God commands not to do is love for God. That's what 1J5:3 and several OC verses say. Our question is, what commandments? I just gave you one OC commandment not restated in the NC. Hopefully you agree it's still right to obey this commandment. When I first encountered you in this forum the discussion was on this topic. One of the OC commands that was discussed was Deut22:8. Still applicable for any structure today with any similar raised living area? Of course. Repeated in the NC? No. Love for God in keeping His commandment? Yes. Love for Neighbor in protecting their safety? Yes. Seems pretty basic.

Is it something we should do? No. Why? Because it doesn't sound right to my spirit.

Good you don't have such tendencies. What about those who do? Love for God to defer to and obey Him? Yes, as with all His commands still applicable in this era as in previous era(s).

Yes, I agree that you had already answered whether you had a list. But, it looks like you do have a partial list: the ten commandments plus Leviticus 18:23. Are you willing to post any others that you have already made a decision about?

Just stating things that come to mind on the fly based upon having read His Word and having had such discussions before over what seems like & likely is 20-30 years or more.

What's the perfection? I don't know, for sure. The best explanation I've seen so far comes from The Message Bible,
"I’m not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made."

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3 - The Message

To Know Him Personally - And that’s about it, friends. Be glad in God! I don’t mind repeating what I have written in earlier letters, and I hope you don’t mind hearing it again. Better safe than sorry—so here goes. Steer clear of the barking dogs, those religious busybodies, all bark and no...

www.biblegateway.com

"Having it all together" would be the perfection. Does that answer your question?

Last question answer is no. Vague and prefer the Biblical instruction and language so I recognize it as His. I wouldn't rely on The Message Bible. Based upon what you posted, I wouldn't even read it.

Read a more literal translation in this order: Phil3:15 (note already mature - can be translated as "perfect" & same word as Heb5:14 > Phil3:12 - Paul is perfect/mature (3:15) but not yet perfected (3:12) > 3:11 states the perfection/completion/end goal the already perfect/mature Paul is in pursuit of.

 

[pasifika]

God loves us first, but how do we show love to God according to the scriptures?

Sin is a choice, it has been that way from the very beginning, no one forces anyone to sin, No one forced Lucifer, to sin, God gives everyone free will, anything else is not true love, which is what God wants. We either give in to sin and are a salve to sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 or we choose to be a slave to God. One leads to condemnation, the other to righteousness Romans 6:16

God wrote His laws from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant Jer 31:34, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 instead of deleting them. Some laws changed in the New Covenant like the earthy priesthood and animal sacrifices Hebrews 10:1-10, Col 2:14-17 as they all point to Jesus, but none of God's commandments ended in the New Covenant and not keeping God's commandments is still a sin Romans 7:7 and keeping them is still how we show love to God 1 John 5:3 John 15:10

Yes, in the Old Covenant the Israelites said we will do. In the New Covenant God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10 and enables us through the Holy Spirit to keep them. We still have our part in keeping the commandments by the choices we make, but He gives us the power, so we do not have to keep them all by ourselves. John 14:15-18. It’s through the transformation of the Holy Spirit, when we are reborn in Christ we want to keep His commandments through love. It’s why the disciples said we need to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith, the commandments are like a mirror, so we know what not to do. Romans 7:7 those in Christ uphold the law through faith Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12

Hi SB, it's good that you understand that the old covenant was solely based on the peoples work, nothing to do with God as in Exodus 19:8...the people respond "we will do everything the Lord has said"...

So, can you see why Paul in the New Testament ie in Philippians 3:9...not having a righteousness on "my own" that comes from the Law, BUT a righteousness through Faith in Jesus in Christ, a righteousness that comes from God on the basis of Faith...

So, can you see the difference, a righteousness of "your own" comes from the Law", A righteousness "from God" comes through Faith in Jesus Christ..

 

[Leaf473]

1John5:3 keeping God's commandments IS love for God. Doing what God commands to do is love for God. Not doing what God commands not to do is love for God. That's what 1J5:3 and several OC verses say. Our question is, what commandments? I just gave you one OC commandment not restated in the NC. Hopefully you agree it's still right to obey this commandment. When I first encountered you in this forum the discussion was on this topic. One of the OC commands that was discussed was Deut22:8. Still applicable for any structure today with any similar raised living area? Of course, Repeated in the NC? No. Love for God in keeping His commandment? Yes. Love for Neighbor in protecting their safety? Yes. Seems pretty basic.

Good you don't have such tendencies. What about those who do? Love for God to defer to and obey Him? Yes, as with all His commands still applicable in this era as in previous era(s).

Just stating things that come to mind on the fly based upon having read His Word and having had such discussions before over what seems like & likely is 20-30 years or more.

Last question answer is no. Vague and prefer the Biblical instruction and language so I recognize it as His. I wouldn't rely on The Message Bible. Based upon what you posted, I wouldn't even read it.

Read a more literal translation in this order: Phil3:15 (note already mature - can be translated as "perfect" & same word as Heb5:14 > Phil3:12 - Paul is perfect/mature (3:15) but not yet perfected (3:12) > 3:11 states the perfection/completion/end goal the already perfect/mature Paul is in pursuit of.

Yes, there are things that we do out of love for our neighbor that will overlap with things talked about in the law of Moses, but it doesn't thereby follow that those parts of the law of Moses are in effect today.

Now... you may not have a written list, but it sounds like you do have some kind of unwritten list. So far we have:
the ten commandments,
Leviticus 18:23
and Deuteronomy 22:8.

Does anything else come to your mind?

It's possible Paul has a deep theological concept in mind in Philippians 3. Myself, I think he's getting at more the idea of You might think I have it all together because I'm an apostle, but I don't. I still have struggles like everyone else. But I keep pressing on.

Great discussion, btw And again, if you happen to think of more from the law of Moses that you believe must be done to show love for God, I'm interested

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, it's good that you understand that the old covenant was solely based on the peoples work, nothing to do with God as in Exodus 19:8...the people respond "we will do everything the Lord has said"...

So, can you see why Paul in the New Testament ie in Philippians 3:9...not having a righteousness on "my own" that comes from the Law, BUT a righteousness through Faith in Jesus in Christ, a righteousness that comes from God on the basis of Faith...

So, can you see the difference, a righteousness of "your own" comes from the Law", A righteousness "from God" comes through Faith in Jesus Christ..

Hey Pasifika.

Thanks for the conversation, I appreciate it.

I don't know if I fully agree that God had nothing to do with the Old Covenant considering He personally wrote it, but I agree the Old Covenant was based on the promises of the Israelites obeying the law and the New Covenant is based on better promises, not better laws since the law of God is perfect Psalms 19:7 and you can't improve on perfection.

I agree all righteousness (right-doing) comes from God and all of God's commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 which means its the morally right thing to do. Our righteousness is when we depend on our own version of right-doing and not God's. When we decide which laws, we are going to obey based on our version of what we feel is right or wrong, but scripture says all of God's commandments are righteousness, so there is never a time to cast aside the commandments we don't want to keep and replace it with self-law. We cannot sanctify ourselves; we are only sanctified by God and are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and all of God's commandments are Truth. Psalms 119:151

If we have been changed by Jesus, we have faith in what He asks of us and do the things He has commanded Revelation 22:14, not to be saved, but because one is saved. Those who have faith in Jesus uphold the law Romans 3:31 and keep the commandments out of love. 1 John 5:3 it's the fruit of true faith Revelation 14:12. I always pray for more faith and more love to God. When we don't keep His commandments we have a love problem and truth problem 1 John 2:4, but through Jesus Christ if we really want to change, He can give us a new heart.