Daniel 9:24-25 Seventy Weeks, A Future Literal 490 Day Period

[A71]

Hi Claninja,
I would say that the Gospel had 40 years to go to Israel. (I see Ninevah as a type of Israel).

I believe John The Baptist started his ministry in AD27. Jesus started his ministry by entering the Temple in AD 30. He was crucified AD33. So these dates form 3 40 year overlapping periods.
27-67
30-70
33-73

Christ brought in an end to sins, everlasting righteousness, and reconciliation for iniquity. I think he was crowned in Heaven on his resurrection.
The prophecy itself is sealed until it is completed, and I think the rebellion (pesha) 'transgression', was stamped out by the destruction of Jerusalem.

This is why Christ was so binary in his speech; you are either for me or against me - don't try and sit on the fence. Those for him were under grace and not judgement, those against him under judgement and not grace. The judgement was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem, AD67-73.

I do believe the prophecy was sealed until it was completed. No prophecy is of private interpretation - meaning all prophecy is only truly resolved by empirical events. We can speculate as to what a future prophecy means, (and bear in mind the prophets and the angels do not understand what future prophecy means), but the Prophecy only really becomes unsealed through completion.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus started his ministry by entering the Temple in AD 30.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


His earthly ministry began when He was annointed by His Father from Heaven, and the Father announced Jesus as His Son.

.

 

[BABerean2]

The scripture below clearly teaches what will be poured upon the desolate at the consummation, the indignation and wrath of God will.

Is the fourty two month "fulfilling" of the gentiles a future event, as Jerusalem will be trampled under foot as seen in Revelation 11:2, I believe so as the book of Revelation was written in 96AD, many years after a proclaimed 66-70AD fulfillment.

Revelation 14:9-12KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

One of the greatest tragedies in the history of our faith is the ignorance and denial of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Nobody can honestly deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah who fulfilled the New Covenant, based on Hebrews 8:6.

If Jesus fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31, and Daniel 9 is the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah, why would anyone logically think that the angel Gabriel forgot to mention the New Covenant?

Dispensationalists try to ignore the New Covenant, because it destroys their Two Peoples of God doctrine.

I am mystified why anyone else would try to ignore or deny the New Covenant found below.

.............................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Why are you also a New Covenant denier?

.

 

[A71]

I mean right after being baptized.
John 2:
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


His earthly ministry began when He was annointed by His Father from Heaven, and the Father announced Jesus as His Son.

.

 

[claninja]

The consummation of course being the end of the judgement, in AD73.
I.E. the end of the fire of judgement, when everything has been consumed, as fire consumes everything.

Hi Claninja,
I would say that the Gospel had 40 years to go to Israel. (I see Ninevah as a type of Israel).

I believe John The Baptist started his ministry in AD27. Jesus started his ministry by entering the Temple in AD 30. He was crucified AD33. So these dates form 3 40 year overlapping periods.
27-67
30-70
33-73

Christ brought in an end to sins, everlasting righteousness, and reconciliation for iniquity. I think he was crowned in Heaven on his resurrection.
The prophecy itself is sealed until it is completed, and I think the rebellion (pesha) 'transgression', was stamped out by the destruction of Jerusalem.

This is why Christ was so binary in his speech; you are either for me or against me - don't try and sit on the fence. Those for him were under grace and not judgement, those against him under judgement and not grace. The judgement was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem, AD67-73.

I do believe the prophecy was sealed until it was completed. No prophecy is of private interpretation - meaning all prophecy is only truly resolved by empirical events. We can speculate as to what a future prophecy means, (and bear in mind the prophets and the angels do not understand what future prophecy means), but the Prophecy only really becomes unsealed through completion.

I agree with a lot of this, but it does give rise to a problem.

If the destruction of Jerusalem is required to fit within the 70 ‘sevens’ in order to fulfill one of the 6 points in verse 24, well 490 years isn’t enough time, it would need 530 years

 

[BABerean2]

I mean right after being baptized.
John 2:
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

OK. That makes sense to me.

Based on recent archeological evidence, Herod the Great died in about 4 BC.

That would put the date of His baptism closer to 27 AD.

Read the book "The Atonement Clock" by Christian Gedge.

.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 23:38 will be fulfilled in the future, when the world armies bring desolation to Jerusalem.

We see below in Micah 7:12-16 the future fulfilling of the gentiles, and the desolation of Jerusalem, as the Syrians will surround with the "World Armies" from sea to sea, and mountain to mountain "The World" will cause the desolation, the woman of Revelation 12:6 is seen feeding on "Manna" in the wilderness as in the days of coming out of Egypt.

Did this take place in 66-70AD in Rome's destruction of Jerusalem, not hardly.

Show me a quote of Josephus where "Manna" was coming from heaven in Carmel, Bashan, or Gilead feeding people.

The scripture seen below is a "Future Event" never recorded in history.

Micah 7:12-16
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

What is the the true Jerusalem that we come to now? Earthly or heavenly?

If you believe the earthly then I would understand your argument a little better, however:

The gentiles destroyed earthly Jerusalem (Babylon) and trampled earthly Jerusalem until it was destroyed again (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome). Now the Jerusalem we come to is above and gentiles cannot trample it any longer

 

[A71]

I agree with a lot of this, but it does give rise to a problem.

If the destruction of Jerusalem is required to fit within the 70 ‘sevens’ in order to fulfill one of the 6 points in verse 24, well 490 years isn’t enough time, it would need 530 years

Yes Claninja.
The 490 years does not run seamlessly.

The Church has attempted to airbrush this problem by running from a minor decree circa 454BC. But actually the result is just a botch job, and is plainly so.

The first person to make any sense on this for me was Dr Stephen Jones, who although wrong in quite a few things, makes a lot of very incisive observations.He realized that the Hasmonean rebellion disrupted the prophetic clock. And he is right.

To really understand Daniel 9 properly the first thing is to accept scripture, and not try and take a steam roller to anything inconvenient.

God quite explicitly states that the decree of Cyrus is the decree that matters. Look it up yourself. Or I can give you the quotations...

So there is no skipping forward to 454BC to leapfrog problems. It doesn't work like that.

 

[claninja]

World Armies" from sea to sea, and mountain to mountain "The World" will cause the desolation, the woman

We’re literally all the kingdoms of the earth given to Cyrus? No. So it’s important to understand how biblical language works.

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:2

 

[Truth7t7]

One of the greatest tragedies in the history of our faith is the ignorance and denial of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Nobody can honestly deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah who fulfilled the New Covenant, based on Hebrews 8:6.

If Jesus fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31, and Daniel 9 is the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah, why would anyone logically think that the angel Gabriel forgot to mention the New Covenant?

Dispensationalists try to ignore the New Covenant, because it destroys their Two Peoples of God doctrine.

I am mystified why anyone else would try to ignore or deny the New Covenant found below.

.............................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Why are you also a New Covenant denier?

.

I dont see Daniel 9 as the New covenant as you claim.

I see Daniel 9 spelling out the future antichrist, abomination of desolation, fulfilling of the gentiles, and end of this world in the consummation of all things, as the cup of Gods final wrath and indignation is poured upon the desolate. Revelation 14:10

You had a bunch of verses showing the New Covenant "That I Agree With" however not one verse was referenced in Daniel 9

 

[iamlamad]

We’re literally all the kingdoms of the earth given to Cyrus? No. So it’s important to understand how biblical language works.

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:2

How about HE THOUGHT all the kingdoms were? That verse was for then, not now. He is dead and gone, and will not rise from the dead to become king again.

 

[iamlamad]

Matthew 23:38 will be fulfilled in the future, when the world armies bring desolation to Jerusalem.

We see below in Micah 7:12-16 the future fulfilling of the gentiles, and the desolation of Jerusalem, as the Syrians will surround with the "World Armies" from sea to sea, and mountain to mountain "The World" will cause the desolation, the woman of Revelation 12:6 is seen feeding on "Manna" in the wilderness as in the days of coming out of Egypt.

Did this take place in 66-70AD in Rome's destruction of Jerusalem, not hardly.

Show me a quote of Josephus where "Manna" was coming from heaven in Carmel, Bashan, or Gilead feeding people.

The scripture seen below is a "Future Event" never recorded in history.

Micah 7:12-16
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

I disagree. There is STILL a Jerusalem in the nation of Israel. Trump just put the embassy there. It will be done physically soon.
It will be to this physical city, or the mountain in it, that Jesus will descend to. There is no Jerusalem #2 on earth.

 

[iamlamad]

One of the greatest tragedies in the history of our faith is the ignorance and denial of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Nobody can honestly deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah who fulfilled the New Covenant, based on Hebrews 8:6.

If Jesus fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31, and Daniel 9 is the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah, why would anyone logically think that the angel Gabriel forgot to mention the New Covenant?

Dispensationalists try to ignore the New Covenant, because it destroys their Two Peoples of God doctrine.

I am mystified why anyone else would try to ignore or deny the New Covenant found below.

..............................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— HE DID: When He rose from the dead. And when Peter preached on the day of Pentecost many believed.

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Of course this is truth: every believer reherses this at comunion.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. No one is denying this. We all believe this.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." No one is denying this. We all believe this.

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. No one is denying this. We all believe this.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— HE DID THIS!

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. No one is denying this. We all believe this.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Without a doubt He is the Mediator of a new covenant. We don't deny this. Why then do you keep repeated yourself almost to the point of ad nauseam ?

Thank God YOU are not God! If so those in Israel would have ZERO chance. But God is patient for his harvest and will certainly have a harvest in Israel. But many of them will have to SEE HIM before they believe. And God will work supernaturally to keep them alive until that time. They will be saved the very same way we are: "through FAITH are you saved...."

Why then are you so disagreeable?

 

[BABerean2]

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— HE DID: When He rose from the dead. And when Peter preached on the day of Pentecost many believed.

Because on the day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.
Therefore, when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites, instead of being a Gentile Church as Dispensationalists often infer.

You have just admitted that the New Covenant was made with "all the house of Israel".

Whether you know it or not, you have just destroyed the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

Thank you very much.

.

 

[claninja]

How about HE THOUGHT all the kingdoms were? That verse was for then, not now. He is dead and gone, and will not rise from the dead to become king again.

Was the kingdom of Babylon literally given ALL NATIONS?
Jeremiah 27:7
Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him.

Daniel 2:38
In your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

Did the kingdom of Greece literally rule over the whole world?
Daniel 2:39
Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.



One cannot understand new testament language without understanding old testament langauge

 

[jgr]

Justin Martyr 100-165AD, Iranaeus 130-202AD, Hippolytus 170-235, all taught of a literal human man as Daniels little horn/Antichrist, the great tribulation associated with this man and Daniels abomination of desolation. They taught Daniels antichrist was the same as Paul's in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

They taught that the "consummation" took place at the second advent when the Lord slay's the Antichrist with the sword of his mouth.

They all taught these events were future from their 2nd and 3rd century lives.

They didn't see the 66-70AD destruction of Jerusalem by Rome as fulfillment of these events.

Lots of "they..." but no quotes. Quotes please.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lots of "they..." but no quotes. Quotes please.

I gave you quotes 2 weeks ago, you are well aware of these facts, I ani't jumping through your preterist hoops again and again.

As I stated they all taught of a future human man as Antichrist, A future abomination of desolation, A future great tribulation and second advent from their 2nd and 3rd century lives.

 

[jgr]

First of all, the prophecy is addressed to Daniel's people, Israel. Not to you, or to the Church. The condition predicted in that verse WILL NOT be fulfilled for Israel, until AFTER Jesus second coming

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Christ was addressing and reproaching His disciples. They were Daniel's people, Israel.

He declared that He fulfilled "all things" for them.

"All things" includes Daniel 9:24.

 

[jgr]

I gave you quotes 2 weeks ago, you are well aware of these facts, I ani't jumping through your preterist hoops again and again.

As I stated they all taught of a future human man as Antichrist, A future abomination of desolation, A future great tribulation and second advent from their 2nd and 3rd century lives.

What are the post numbers for the quotes?

 

[BABerean2]

I dont see Daniel 9 as the New covenant as you claim.

It is not my "claim".

It is found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
The same interpretation was printed in that Bible over 350 years before I was born.


Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.