Dancing in the Spirit

[Nikos7]

Who is doing the insulting? You need to get a mirror.

Under the guise of spiritual worship, Jewish cultural folk dances are brought in the church and called worship. They are not. They are just Jewish folk dances (or an attempt to recreate them). The same goes for other choreographed dances, Jewish or not. Some seem to think that just because it is Jewish, it is spiritual. Certainly, that cannot be true.

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

Stormdancer, thank you for answering my questions! That helps me have a better understanding of what you mean. I think this kind of dancing is a little bit different from the improv I described, but maybe not by much. It just depends on the situation.

If you are consciously controlling your movements, it is worship if you are doing it from a humble and worshiping spirit.

I agree. Worship depends on the heart, not on form.

It is more similar to worship through singing, because both are music-oriented.

This was the question I was most curious about. Singers and musicians train to sing and play instruments. When musicians play a song in church, chances are the worship pastor chose that song in advance, and the musicians have rehearsed it together at least once. Even in churches that do not use musical instruments, such as Church of Christ and Primitive Baptist, I'm pretty sure there is still congregational singing. The only way to do congregational singing is to use lyrics that have already been determined, whether they are put up on a projector so everybody can read them, or everybody has them memorized. It would be a double-standard to say this is okay for music but not okay for dance. They are very similar art forms, except that one is auditory and the other is visual.

Nothing is mentioned of dancing in the New Testament church, whereas, instruction is given to encourage one another: "Be filled with the Spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..." Ephesians 5:18b-20.
If there were such activity in the early church, it would undoubtedly be mentioned it here or in Colossians 3:16.

Okay, now I am really lost. Are you now saying that any kind of dance in church is not okay at all?

I can see that there is a determined will to dance/worship in the carnal flesh. I can't imagine any person who loves the Lord not wanting the power of the Spirit in all things whether in church or not. It just makes spiritual sense.

This is what I am talking about. You are making an assumption about every single Christian whose ideas about worship do not line up to yours. I don't know about you, but the only person whose heart I know is mine. For you to state categorically that everybody who doesn't do things in the way you described is motivated by the flesh and not the Spirit, is a very serious accusation. If you are comfortable casting judgment on a huge number of people you've never met, that's between you and God, but as your sister in Christ I have to caution you against that. I believe that worship comes from the heart, and can appear in many different forms. Brother Lawrence, a monk who lived several hundred years ago, considered his duty of washing dishes in the monastery is an act of worship. Any activity through which we communicate with God, glorify Him, and enter into His presence, is an act of worship, whatever it looks like.

Under the guise of spiritual worship, Jewish cultural folk dances are brought in the church and called worship. They are not. They are just Jewish folk dances (or an attempt to recreate them). The same goes for other choreographed dances, Jewish or not. Some seem to think that just because it is Jewish, it is spiritual. Certainly, that cannot be true.

Your last statement is correct, but the reverse is also true: just because it is Jewish (or choreographed) doesn't mean it can't be spiritual either. I've danced to more choreography than I can remember, and the truth is, when I am dancing to something I've already learned, I personally feel more free to worship God than when my dance is unstructured or unplanned. When my body memorizes the steps, my mind and my spirit are open. I wish you understood this. I think you are missing out on a big blessing by rejecting it so emphatically.

 

[Nikos7]

You will only know what it means to dance in the spirit when you give up using choreographical dances for worship and dance free in the Holy Spirit. You are too tied to form to understand the freedom of the Spirit.

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

Yeah, I maintain that I have, in fact, danced in the Spirit given the definition stormdancer gave, of dancing under the inspiration of the Spirit, for the purpose of worshiping God, in a spirit of reverence and humility. I have done this both with and without choreography. If you can't accept that, it's your loss, not mine. As for me being "too tied to form to understand the freedom of the Spirit," I repeat: you don't know me.

Also, "choreographical" isn't a word.

 

[Nikos7]

Yeah, I maintain that I have, in fact, danced in the Spirit given the definition stormdancer gave, of dancing under the inspiration of the Spirit, for the purpose of worshiping God, in a spirit of reverence and humility. I have done this both with and without choreography. If you can't accept that, it's your loss, not mine. As for me being "too tied to form to understand the freedom of the Spirit," I repeat: you don't know me.

Also, "choreographical" isn't a word.

If you have danced in the spirit then why are you asking what it is?!! I think you doubt yourself. If you just put on that you were dancing in the spirit then repentance is in order. God is not pleased with anything but the genuine.

 

[stormdancer0]

Yeah, I maintain that I have, in fact, danced in the Spirit given the definition stormdancer gave, of dancing under the inspiration of the Spirit, for the purpose of worshiping God, in a spirit of reverence and humility. I have done this both with and without choreography. If you can't accept that, it's your loss, not mine. As for me being "too tied to form to understand the freedom of the Spirit," I repeat: you don't know me.

Also, "choreographical" isn't a word.

Just as a church service is "choreographed," or scheduled, dance can be also. The Spirit of God uses us in ways we are somewhat familiar with sometimes (certainly not ALL the time, but some). If you have choreographed dance steps in your mind, He can use those. Me, I have two left feet. But when planned music is played, and I plan on worshiping, the fact that they are planned does not make it any less worshipful.

God commanded the Jews to have certain festivals, or feasts, in celebration. There was dancing during some of those feasts. God wants us to celebrate His generosity and love. Dancing has always been a part of that, since Moses, at least.

Saying that it was "just Jewish culture" reminds me of something. Gays use this reasoning to explain away the sinfulness of their lifestyle. It is a very dangerous road to go down. If you dismiss all Jewish cultural reference, you'd have to cut out most of the Old Testament, and a significant amount of the New Testament.

 

[Nikos7]

It is crystal clear that some here do not have a clue as to what "dancing in the Spirit" is according to the Scriptures. I have explained it but it takes spiritual understanding. I pray that the Lord reveals this to seeking hearts.

O BTW, How do you choreograph a service? I never heard of it. Must be North C. talk.

 

[stormdancer0]

I agree that someone does not have a clue.

 

[Nikos7]

No clue? Who? You?

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

If you have danced in the spirit then why are you asking what it is?!!

I asked what it meant to people here because I had never heard the term before (I'm not Pentecostal). You failed to provide me with a definition, or any other answers to my questions, but stormdancer's description coincided with some of my previous experiences so I decided I could use the term.

I think you doubt yourself. If you just put on that you were dancing in the spirit then repentance is in order. God is not pleased with anything but the genuine.

Feel free to think whatever you want about me and continue to make as many accusations and assumptions as you want. Since I'm still a total stranger to you, and moreover, since you've expressed absolutely zero interest in actually getting to know me in the short time we've been talking, your low opinion of me doesn't bother me.

It is crystal clear that some here do not have a clue as to what "dancing in the Spirit" is according to the Scriptures. I have explained it but it takes spiritual understanding. I pray that the Lord reveals this to seeking hearts.

The phrase "dancing in the Spirit" appears nowhere in all of Scripture, in any translation. Could you point me to specific Scriptures that describe dancing in the Spirit?

BTW, How do you choreograph a service? I never heard of it. Must be North C. talk.

"Choreograph" in that context simply means a structure or a plan. For instance, your church probably holds services at a specific time of day on a certain day of the week in a particular location. There may be an order to the day's proceedings, such as music and singing, an offering, prayer, sermon, etc. If your church has a worship pastor or some other person in charge of the singing part, he or she probably decides beforehand what songs to sing and rehearses them with a pianist or band or whoever provides the accompaniment (although since you didn't answer my question about whether your church has musical accompaniment, for all I know your church could be a capella). Most pastors plan what they are going to say in their sermon in advance, or at the very least they plan that they are going to give a sermon, even if they don't decide what to say beforehand. These are all structures that give the overall church service a form. Form is not a bad thing. In fact, it is formlessness that is bad (see Genesis 1:2 and 1 Corinthians 14:40). Just because something has an order or a structure or a plan, doesn't mean it is a bad thing.

 

[Nikos7]

I think that you are stretching the meaning. Here is the normal use of the term. Please read and learn. Thanks.
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Choreography From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Choreography is the art of designing sequences of movements in which motion, form, or both are specified. Choreography may also refer to the design itself, which is sometimes expressed by means of dance notation. The word choreography literally means "dance-writing" from the Greek words "χορεία" (circular dance, see choreia) and "γραφή" (writing). A choreographer is one who creates choreographies.

The term choreography first appeared in the American English dictionary in the 1950s.[1] Prior to this, movie credits used various terms to mean choreography, such as "ensembles staged by"[2] and "dances staged by".[3]

Choreography is used in (but not limited to) the fields of cheerleading, cinematography, dance, gymnastics, fashion shows, ice skating, marching band, show choir, theatre, and synchronized swimming.
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BTW, when you go to a Church that is truely spiritual, the service is not put into order by the Pastor/leader, but it is put into order by the Holy Spirit. Many mistakenly think that men are putting the service together. Not so. I have put many services together but not before I have spent much time in prayer to allow the Holy Spirit to guide and direct the order of service. Even then there is a freedom in the service for the Spirit to move in a new direction.

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

I think that you are stretching the meaning. Here is the normal use of the term. Please read and learn. Thanks.

I feel very pedantic for saying this, but sometimes people use language figuratively. It's called figurative language. I really hope I don't need to go into more detail.

I have put many services together but not before I have spent much time in prayer to allow the Holy Spirit to guide and direct the order of service. Even then there is a freedom in the service for the Spirit to move in a new direction.

Exactly! This is what I have been saying all along. So why do you believe this is not possible with choreography?

 

[AllForHisGlory]

I have not really read much of the posts in this thread.
What I have seen at my church, everyone is free to dance, however usually the children and a select few older people actually dance. I don't dance because that is not how I worship. I worship through my guitar, hands and voice. For them however, they worship through dancing, I think its beautiful!! None of it is choreographed, however I wouldn't condemn it, as long as their heart is in the right place, worshiping God, let them dance!!

 

[Nikos7]

Services must be done decently and in order. The church comes together under the leadership of a Spirit filled leader. Expressions of worship should be entirely Spirit led and motivated. Prayer and Praise and expressions of Joy and even weeping for the lost and needy.
Choreographed dancing is pre-determined and not a response to the Moves of the Spirit unless it is dancing in the Spirit. It is not a common occurance in the Bible and will not be in the Church. I have seen leaping and jumping and dancing in the Spirit. It is very easy to know if it is in the Spirit, if the leader is prayed up and close to God. Dancing and twirling across the platform bringing attention to self is not of God and should be stopped. It will not happen in my services.

 

[AllForHisGlory]

Services must be done decently and in order. The church comes together under the leadership of a Spirit filled leader. Expressions of worship should be entirely Spirit led and motivated. Prayer and Praise and expressions of Joy and even weeping for the lost and needy.
Choreographed dancing is pre-determined and not a response to the Moves of the Spirit unless it is dancing in the Spirit. It is not a common occurance in the Bible and will not be in the Church. I have seen leaping and jumping and dancing in the Spirit. It is very easy to know if it is in the Spirit, if the leader is prayed up and close to God. Dancing and twirling across the platform bringing attention to self is not of God and should be stopped. It will not happen in my services.

I realize where you are coming from exactly. I have never actually seen choreographed dancing in church, but I have seen dancing in the Spirit. In the same way, being on a couple worship teams, the songs are chosen beforehand in order and such, but who knows! We might stay worshiping God on one song for 30 minutes or stay in worship all service long. There comes a point where what was planned needs to be let go, and let God move! In fact the plans should be made knowing that they might not be followed, after all, they are man-made and God will move in whatever way He wants to.

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

I have not really read much of the posts in this thread.
What I have seen at my church, everyone is free to dance, however usually the children and a select few older people actually dance. I don't dance because that is not how I worship. I worship through my guitar, hands and voice. For them however, they worship through dancing, I think its beautiful!! None of it is choreographed, however I wouldn't condemn it, as long as their heart is in the right place, worshiping God, let them dance!!

Absolutely! I've come to believe that every person has a unique way of worshiping God. Our personalities, talents, experiences - everything that makes us who we are - may gear us toward one form of expression or another. I think God is pleased when we use our talents to glorify Him, but the most important thing is that everything we do, in every aspect of our lives, is done as worship. That is what we are made for and what we will spend eternity doing. I think our goal should be to have a heart of worship always.

 

[Nikos7]

I realize where you are coming from exactly. I have never actually seen choreographed dancing in church, but I have seen dancing in the Spirit. In the same way, being on a couple worship teams, the songs are chosen beforehand in order and such, but who knows! We might stay worshiping God on one song for 30 minutes or stay in worship all service long. There comes a point where what was planned needs to be let go, and let God move! In fact the plans should be made knowing that they might not be followed, after all, they are man-made and God will move in whatever way He wants to.

The free flow of the Spirit is what is missing in the Church today. I do not oppose dancing in the Spirit. However when I look at the Scriptures I do not see a lot of it done in worship settings. That is why I am not happy to see all the dancing that is choreographed in the churches.

Note the following:
(1) Scripture and history indicate that dancing was never part of divine worship in the temple, synagogue, and early church;

(2) Of the twenty-eight references to dance or dancing in the Old Testament, only four can be considered to refer to religious dancing (Ps 149:3; 150:4; 2 Sam 6:14-16), but none of these relate to worship in God’s house, and two of them may not actually refer to dancing at all;

(3) Social dancing in Bible times was done mostly in conjunction with the celebration of religious events, especially the annual festivals. The dance was performed outside the temple by women, children, or men, as separate groups, and not as male-female couples. It was a part of the Jewish culture.

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

Choreographed dancing is pre-determined and not a response to the Moves of the Spirit unless it is dancing in the Spirit. It is not a common occurance in the Bible and will not be in the Church. I have seen leaping and jumping and dancing in the Spirit. It is very easy to know if it is in the Spirit, if the leader is prayed up and close to God. Dancing and twirling across the platform bringing attention to self is not of God and should be stopped. It will not happen in my services.

Why can't a person pray over their choreography and ask the Holy Spirit to help them choreograph?

 

[Nikos7]

Why can't a person pray over their choreography and ask the Holy Spirit to help them choreograph?

You are a strongwilled person. I feel that this could cause you many problems in life. One should never set your will against the Will of The Spirit.

 

[Zoe of Elyon]

I'm not sure how asking for God's help equals setting one's will against the will of the Spirit. Again, you're free to assume whatever you want and accuse me however you wish. That's between you and God, just as my heart is between me and God. I would be willing to share my experiences in choreography with you - you might be surprised by what I have to say - but I have a feeling you wouldn't want to hear it, and after being insulted in practically every way possible, I don't really want to put myself out there voluntarily.