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Futurist Only Damascus and animals

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Handmaid for Jesus, Feb 27, 2016.

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  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding Isaiah 30:26, note that it (like Isaiah 62:4) is about the future, blessed time of the millennium (Isaiah 30:18-26). The bright sun in Isaiah 30:26 is a good thing, just as the bright moon and the healing in Isaiah 30:26 are good things.

    Then Isaiah 30:27 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 30:27 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 30:26, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 30:27-33 is about Jesus' 2nd coming (right before the millennium), when he will come in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Regarding 2 Peter 3:7, it refers to the destruction of the heavens and earth at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11 to 21:1), which is when the unsaved of all times will undergo final judgment.

    Zechariah 3:8 ¶Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

    Did you mean a different verse?

    This refers to Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) and with his sword, and the slain of the Lord shall be many (Revelation 19:11-21).

    That's right. But note that Jeremiah 30:21 can still include reference to Nehemiah the governor (Nehemiah 12:26), because there is no election in Jeremiah 30:21.

    Actually, they did. For note the "all Israel" in Nehemiah 7:73 and Nehemiah 12:47. This was because Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes. For there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

    For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

    So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

    That's right, during the millennium.

    Note that Ezekiel 46:12 doesn't have to refer to Jesus, in order for him to have returned by that time, just as we will reign as kings and priests on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

    If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

    The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

    Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

    Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

    Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

    And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

    If Micah 4:9-10 wasn't a prophecy of the Babylonian Captivity of the Jews in the 6th century BC, then Micah 4:9-13 could refer to what will happen right before, at, and after Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14).

    Regarding "Beulah" (Isaiah 62:4), Isaiah 62:1-5,8-12 refers to the future time of the millennium (Micah 4:1-8, Isaiah 2:1-3).

    In Ezekiel 37, the resurrection described in verse 10 could refer to the political rebirth of Israel after its Babylonian Captivity. For Ezekiel 37:11 is referring to Israel in the time of Ezekiel, when it was in the Babylonian Captivity. The dry bones would then represent the loss of Israel's hope during that time (Ezekiel 37:11).

    The "army" in Ezekiel 37:10 may not be literal in the sense of a military force sent out to attack or defend some territory, but could simply be a figurative way of expressing the size of the multitude of people seen by Ezekiel in his vision, like, for example, someone could say "There is a whole army of ants in the kitchen", meaning that there is a huge number of ants.

    While Ezekiel 37:11-12 could have been a metaphor for Israel in its Babylonian Captivity, and then its return to the land of Israel after that captivity (Ezra 2:1), at the same time Ezekiel 37:12-24 could also refer to the future, physical resurrection of the church, which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For the church is Israel (e.g. Revelation 21:9b,12b). And the church will be physically resurrected by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11, Ezekiel 37:14).

    This can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel (at one point in ancient times), and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench.

    Revelation 13:7 means that the Antichrist will persecute Christians in every nation (cf. Matthew 24:9-14).

    Zechariah 14:2 can refer to Jews in Jerusalem.

    Here the saints can be Christians around the world.

    That's right, except that the battle won't be in Armageddon (Har Megiddo, in northern Israel), but at Jerusalem (Zechariah 14).

    That's right, except that it will be after the millennium is over (Revelation 20:7).

    This can refer to Jesus' 2nd coming.

    Ezekiel 25:1-17 refers to ancient nations next to Judah rejoicing when it went into the Babylonian Captivity, not realizing that God would make sure that they too would be defeated by the Babylonians.

    Ezekiel chapters 38-39 refer to what will happen after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

    Near the end of the safe time of the millennium (Ezekiel 38:11), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26,7). So, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment, God will let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog and Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).

    Regarding Daniel 9:27, back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

    This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

    In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    Actually, Satan will know that he can't prevent the return of Jesus (Revelation 12:12c).

    That's right.

    Regarding Revelation 6:12-17, it could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

    Zephaniah 2:4-5 can refer to the defeat of ancient Philistia by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

    Zephaniah 2:6-7 can refer to some Jews living in Philistia after their return from the Babylonian Captivity.

    Zephaniah 2:8-10 can refer to the ancient nations of Moab and Ammon magnifying themselves against Judah at its defeat by the Babylonians, not realizing that they too would be defeated by the Babylonians, and that some Jews would live in their lands after their return from the Babylonian Captivity.

    Zephaniah 2:11 won't be fulfilled until the millennium (Zechariah 14:9,16-19).

    Zephaniah 2:12 can refer to an ancient defeat of the Ethiopians.

    Zephaniah 2:13-15 refers to the defeat of Nineveh and the Assyrian empire by the Babylonians in 612 BC.

    This, in its context of Ezekiel 30:1-19, can refer to the destruction of Egypt and surrounding countries by "the sword" (Ezekiel 30:4-6) of "Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon" (Ezekiel 30:10-11), and his taking of some people there into captivity (Ezekiel 30:17-18).

    This can refer to the destruction of the pagan nations neighboring ancient Judah, as well as ancient Judah itself, by the Babylonians in 586 BC. Jeremiah 12:15 can then refer to Judah's subsequent return from the Babylonian Captivity.

    This could refer to Judah's destruction by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

    Zephaniah 1:14-18 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

    Regarding Daniel 11:31-35, verses 33-35 refer to the persecution of people in the church (not in hiding) throughout the world during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), immediately after which tribulation, Jesus will return and gather together (rapture) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Regarding Daniel 11:31's "abomination of desolation", it was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the 1st (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part of it antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

    This verse, like Revelation 11:1, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, requires that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

    Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

    But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

    -

    One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been very careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

    While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call ) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a 3rd Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

    (This could point to another reason that the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a 3rd temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a 3rd temple.)

    Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

    (A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the current Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance. But if down the road, pressure from the Arab masses for a Palestinian state becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state.)

    Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

    "God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

    With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands upon the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

    Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that he will no longer allow Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert total Jewish control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

    Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

    Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

    But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it is out and the IDF troops actually see it, it is unlikely that they are going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

    Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it is unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so that they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical-weapons payloads).

    So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

    Regarding Revelation 20:19-21, note that Revelation 20 has only 15 verses.

    Did you mean Revelation 19 instead?

    If so, note that at that time the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") isn't chained up, but cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20).

    Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

    Did you mean a different verse?

    That's right, except that nothing requires that the armies will be burned "up", in the sense of cremated.

    Regarding Isaiah 30:26, note that it makes no reference to fire from the sun, or to anyone being burned at all at that time.

    Regarding Malachi 4:1-3 and Isaiah 33:12, they can refer to the burning up of the physical bodies of some of the wicked people who will still be alive at Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    This will happen after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

    Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Note that this can include reference to persecuted Christians who will still be alive at Jesus' 2nd coming.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Note that every time the word "souls" is used in the Bible, it doesn't have to refer to dead people. For it is used to refer to living people in Acts 27:37 and Genesis 46:15. For living people consist of a body, a soul, and a spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    And note that the "souls", or people, in Revelation 20:4-6 include those who will have been bodily resurrected (at Jesus' 2nd coming) after having been beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 20:4).

    That's right, with regard to the mortal bodies of some of the wicked, even though some of the bodies that the birds will eat could be partially burned, similar to how humans eat barbecued meats.

    Note that in Revelation 20:9, the original Greek word (katesthio: G2719) translated as "devoured" doesn't require that their bodies will be cremated by the fire from heaven, just as the same Greek word was used in John 2:17, 2 Corinthians 11:20, and Galatians 5:15 to refer to people whose bodies still existed. For those killed by the fire from heaven in Revelation 20:9 and Ezekiel 38:22 will still have to be buried (Ezekiel 39:11-15).
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I have just set out proof that the G/M attack happens BEFORE Jesus Returns.
    The fact you still determinedly place it at the end of the Millennium, means anything I prove is simply ignored by you.
    But I do know how the Lord has locked people who have chosen to believe false theories, into those ideas. Only as events take place will most understand at last. Isaiah 42:18-20, Isaiah 29:9-12 & 24

    Devoured; KJV, NIV or consumed; REB, CJB, means to most people- nothing left. This is correct, as there is no mention of the disposal of bodies in Revelation 20.
    They are different wars, 1000 years apart.
    Just for interest, 2 Esdras 13:8-11, has a very succinct account of Jesus burning up the Anti-Christ's army.
    Very devious, Bible2+.
    The very next verse tells of devouring fire from the Lord, then the nations sieved out for destruction and again; His arm descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire.... Isaiah 30:27-30
    Time to admit your errors and to cease promoting false theories.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that no scripture requires that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will happen at any other time than after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

    Regarding Isaiah 42:18-20, in verses 19-20, as in the subsequent verse 21, the perfect and righteous servant and messenger is Jesus Christ (cf. Philippians 2:7, Malachi 3:1b-2), as is the servant in Isaiah 42:1-7, which Matthew 12:16-21 says was fulfilled by Jesus. He is blind and deaf (Isaiah 42:19-20) only in the figurative sense of when at his 1st coming he did not condemn people (John 3:17) according to what he saw and heard, but showed them mercy instead (e.g. John 8:1-11). So Isaiah 42:19-20 is the same idea as Isaiah 42:3. Also, Isaiah 42:20 refers to when Jesus at his 1st coming miraculously opened the ears of some deaf people (e.g. Mark 7:32-37).

    Regarding verse 24, note that it, like the rest of Isaiah 29:17-24, can refer to the millennium.

    Note that there doesn't have to be a mention of the disposal of the bodies in Revelation 20:9 in order for them to be buried. Also, the original Greek word translated there as "devoured" doesn't require cremation.

    That is similar to how 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and Isaiah 66:16 show that Jesus will return in flaming fire. And yet the burned bodies of the slain will still exist to be eaten by birds (Revelation 19:21).

    That's right, at his 2nd coming (Isaiah 30:27). But note that Isaiah 30:26 can instead be part of the preceding verses, which describe the millennium (Isaiah 30:18-26).
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You have a myopic view of the G/M attacks. The one in Ezekiel 38-39 and the one in Rev 20 are separated by 1000+ years.
    I have pointed out the many differences between the attack from the North against the new nation of Beulah, in the holy Land, before the Return and the last attack against God's people and the city He loves, Revelation 20:9, near the end of the Millennium.
    What absolute rubbish! Did Jesus see much, but observed not, were His ears open, but He heard not? Isaiah 42:20
    These passages perfectly apply now, to all who fail to properly read and understand the Prophetic Word. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
    But none of Isaiah 29 is Millennial.
    Does Jesus distress Ariel, Jerusalem, coming in thunder, earthquakes, great noise, storms, tempests and in flames or devouring fire, at His Return? No, He does not.
    Isaiah 29:1-21 is another description of the Lord's Day of wrath, the next prophesied event, to be literally fulfilled by a CME sunstrike, when the multitude of nations warring against Israel will disappear like a dream, Isaiah 29:7, and the godless peoples will be cut down. Isaiah 29:20-21, Isaiah 66:15-17, Psalms 83:1-18, Revelation 6:12-17
    Then Isaiah 29:17-19 and Isaiah 29:22-24 will take place. Great will be the Day.
    So who is going to dig graves for seven months, Ezekiel 39:12, during Eternity?
    Common sense dictates that the fire from heaven, Revelation 20:9, won't leave anything but some ashes.
    Those two Bible passages have nothing to do with Jesus' Return in glory, coming on clouds, in the same manner as He left. Acts 1:11 No mention of fire in Revelation 19:11-16
    They refer to His Day of wrath, when He won't be seen, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11-13, as He destroys the attackers of Israel and resets the world's civilization, by sending fire from the sun. Revelation 6:12 shows clearly that Jesus is in heaven when He opens the Sixth Seal.
    I looked in my 1895 KJV family Bible and saw no break between Isaiah 30:26 and 27. If such a break is in your KJV, then it has been inserted to suit the publishers bias.
    Again, none of Isaiah 30 is Millennial. Does His arm descend in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire as the sun flares with seven times it's normal power and the moon reflects it, as bright as the sun. No, on the glorious Day of Jesus' Return, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light.... Matthew 24:29-30
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that they can be the same attack.

    Regarding "Beulah" (Isaiah 62:4), note that it can be millennial.

    With regard to condemning people for what he saw and heard, yes (John 3:17; e.g. John 8:1-11).

    Note that verses 17-24 can be.
    Isaiah 29:1-8 could refer to what will happen right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:1-3,12). And Isaiah 29:17-24 could refer to the subsequent millennium. But Isaiah 29:9-16 could apply to any time. For example, compare Isaiah 29:13 and Mark 7:6. And compare Isaiah 29:14 on the one hand and Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 1:19 to 2:16 on the other.

    Note that no verse in the Bible requires a CME sunstrike, except possibly Revelation 16:8.

    Regarding Isaiah 29:5-7, it could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare the flame of devouring fire in Isaiah 29:6b with the 2nd-coming flaming fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:8. And compare the defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Isaiah 29:7 with the 2nd-coming defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Zechariah 14:3,12.

    Note that this can be after the 2nd coming.

    Isaiah 66:15-16 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) and with his sword, and the slain of the Lord shall be many (Revelation 19:11-21).

    Isaiah 66:17 can refer to those who mistakenly try to sanctify themselves by keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 2:16,21), even though they don't even keep it, but break it regularly (cf. Galatians 6:13). Isaiah 66:17 doesn't mean that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's food restrictions are still in effect today, or that they will be in effect at the future time of Jesus' 2nd coming in Isaiah 66:15-16 (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

    This could refer to a huge volcanic eruption, during the tribulation's first stage.

    Note that those passages can be millennial.

    It's not during eternity, but after the millennium and before the great white throne judgment.

    For while the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

    Actually, it doesn't, from the point of view of the original Greek.

    Note that there doesn't have to be, because 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and Isaiah 66:16 do mention the fire.

    Similarly, nothing in Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, or 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says that the Lord will set his feet on the Mount of Olives on that day. But they don't have to, because Zechariah 14:4 does.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven", which is only at his 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30).

    And 2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels", which is only at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:31, Matthew 24:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26).

    And 2 Thessalonians 1:9 refers to the future presence of the Lord in glory and power, which is only at his 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30).

    And 2 Thessalonians 1:10 refers to when Jesus "shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", which is only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his 1st coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Psalms 11:6 can refer to Revelation 20:9b, which is the same event as Ezekiel 38:22.

    Psalms 18 can simply be poetic language to express God's deliverance of David from his enemies at some point in ancient times (Psalms 18 title). And even if one were to also apply parts of it to the future, Psalms 18:11 could refer to the clouds of the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29, Revelation 1:7a), right before Jesus appears to the world (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7b) and the rapture of Psalms 18:16 occurs (Matthew 24:31).

    That's right.

    Note that there doesn't have to be any break to recognize that Isaiah 30:26 is referring to good things, of the millennium of Isaiah 30:18-26, whereas Isaiah 30:27-33 is about Jesus' 2nd coming (right before the millennium), when he will come in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Note that nothing requires that.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Bible2+, I have carefully re-read all of Ezekiel chapters 40-48. That entire Bible section is a prophecy about how the Lord's people must live and what they must do, when they go to live in all of the holy Land. Briefly:
    Ezekiel 43:1-12, tells us about the new Temple and how the Shekinah Glory of God will reside in it.
    Ezekiel 44:5-31, gives the rules and regulations for the priests.
    Ezekiel 45:8-18 says how the leader of the nation, will make offerings and sacrifices to God. He will have property and sons.

    Nowhere is it said, or even hinted that Jesus is physically present and He plainly hasn't Returned when all this will happen.

    In ancient times, when the Israelites first settled into the holy Land, God promised to ‘dwell among them’.
    Exodus 29:45-46 I shall dwell in the midst of My people, I shall become their God and by My dwelling among them they will know that I am the Lord their God who brought them out of Egypt.

    This ‘dwelling’, was not as a visible entity but just His ‘Presence’, only seen by the people as a cloud or a pillar of fire that went before them during the Exodus and after the Temple was built, in the Holy of Holies as the Shekinah Glory. 1 Kings 8:10-11

    So as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11, what happened before will happen again and Righteous Israel, which includes all those who love the Lord and keep His commandments, Isaiah 56:6-8, Ephesians 2:1-22, Galatians 3:26-29, will soon gather and settle in all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 20:34-38, from the Nile to the Euphrates, thus fulfilling God’s promises to the Patriarchs. Psalm 105:7-11, Isaiah 26:1-2
    When they build the new Temple, the Ark of the Covenant will be recovered from its hiding place and the Shekinah glory will come back into the Holy of Holies so in the same manner as before, the Lord ‘will dwell among His people’. Ezekiel 43:4, Isaiah 12:6
    Israel’s new leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, will see Him, Isaiah 24:23 and ‘His glory will be revealed to all believers’. 2 Thess. 1:10, Isaiah 60:1, Isaiah 30:20, Hebrews 8:11, Ezekiel 39:27-29They will exemplify His holiness for all to see’.

    When Jesus said: ‘I will be with you always, to the close of the age’, Matthew 28:20 He meant it spiritually and in the next age of the Millennium, He will once again be on earth physically.
    After the many more prophesied events that will take place until the end of this age, the Lord Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign.
    Blessed be He who comes in the Name of the Lord’, will be the shout of the true Israelites in Jerusalem, as all the world sees Jesus Return on the clouds.
     
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    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that they aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

    Nonetheless, when Jesus returns and begins his millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), he will still build a New Covenant, 4th temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

    Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will land on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

    Note that nothing in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 requires that Jesus won't have returned by that time.

    Note that just as the church is under a different covenant than Israel was during the Exodus (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), so the church can be gathered together to the promised land in a different manner, i.e. at Jesus' 2nd coming (Mark 13:26-27). 1 Corinthians 10:6-11 simply means that what happened to some Israelites during the Exodus is a warning to us not to backslide.

    Isaiah 56:1-8 could have foretold the 2nd Jewish temple period (Mark 11:17, Isaiah 56:7b), during which, Gentile proselytes to Old Covenant Judaism were permitted to come and pray and worship at the temple (Acts 8:27), just as they were allowed to do so during the 1st Jewish temple period (1 Kings 8:41-43).

    Ephesians 2:15-16, like Colossians 2:14-17, means that on the Cross, Jesus abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

    This can occur at Jesus' 2nd coming, and can refer to Jesus judging the surviving, genetic Israelites who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 34:11-16).

    With regard to the Biblical, geographical extent of "the land of Israel", it actually doesn't include everything between the Nile and the Euphrates. People quite understandably mistake "the river of Egypt" (Genesis 15:18) as being the Nile, when actually it is a wadi near Gaza which forms the border between the promised land and Egypt (Joshua 15:47,3-4). In this way, the promised land excludes the harsh deserts of Sinai.

    Also, the promised land doesn't extend from the vicinity of Gaza eastward to the Euphrates, so that Israel would include northern Jordan and western Iraq, because the eastern border of the promised land runs between Damascus and the Dead Sea (Ezekiel 47:18).

    So instead of extending from the vicinity of Gaza eastward to the Euphrates, the promised land extends from the vicinity of Gaza northward through Lebanon to the Euphrates in northern Syria, so that the promised land includes Lebanon and the region of Hamath (1 Kings 8:65), in the northwestern part of Syria.

    In this way, the promised land includes the western part of the "Fertile Crescent", and excludes the harsh deserts of northern Jordan, eastern Syria, and western Iraq.

    This can refer to the millennium.

    This can be millennial.

    This can be millennial.

    "Their governor" could refer to "Nehemiah the governor" (Nehemiah 12:26) during the return of the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity (Jeremiah 30:18). It could also refer to Jesus during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-11), after the captivity which will occur right before his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).

    This can refer to the millennium, when the "one head" of Israel will be Jesus (cf. Isaiah 9:6-7). When Hosea 1:11 says that they will "appoint themselves" one head, the original Hebrew word (suwm: H7760) translated as "appoint" can mean "regard", in the sense of giving heed to, such as regarding (suwm) God's Word in Exodus 9:21, or regarding (suwm), in the sense of caring about, that people are perishing in Job 4:20. So the original Hebrew translated as they shall "appoint themselves one head" can simply mean "they shall give regard to one head". I.e., they will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their one true king (Isaiah 43:15, John 1:49, John 12:13).

    Isaiah 24 could happen at Jesus' 2nd coming. For the events of "that day" in Isaiah 24:21-22 match the 2nd coming events of Revelation 19:19 to 20:3. And the events of Isaiah 24:23 match the post-tribulation, 2nd coming events of Matthew 24:29-30 and the subsequent millennial reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation 20:4-6 and Micah 4:1-4.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming.

    Isaiah 60:1-2 can refer to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:27,29-30).

    Note that Isaiah 30:20-21 can be millennial. For the returned Jesus won't be everywhere physically. So we will still need his human teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28) and his Spirit to direct us when we are away from him physically.

    This was fulfilled in the 1st century AD (1 John 2:27,13).

    Ezekiel chapters 38-39 will be after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

    Note that the end of this age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This statement shows that you are simply unable to read and understand the truths of Bible prophecy. Isaiah 56:10
    To anyone reading this thread: read Ezekiel 40-48 and see for yourselves how impossible it is for Jesus to be physically present at that time. It will be as in ancient times, with God's glory in the Temple and a leader of Moses' stature.
    It will be the time, coming quite soon, that all of God's people will come together and live as God always intended His people to live. They will be His witnesses and will show His holiness to the nations. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Ezekiel 39:27
    Jesus will Return, only after all that is prophesied to happen with the Anti-Christ, etc, has taken place.

    The problem of inability to understand the Prophetic Word, is in accordance with God's will and only as events happen, will understanding come to all who have fixated onto false theories and doctrines. Isaiah 43:8, Daniel 12:4-9, Isaiah 29:23-24
     
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    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that nothing in Ezekiel chapters 40-48 makes it impossible for Jesus to have returned by that time. I.e., Ezekiel chapters 40-48 can be millennial.

    This will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming, and can refer to Jesus judging the surviving, genetic Israelites who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 34:11-16).

    Ezekiel chapters 38-39 won't happen until after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

    The "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written down in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

    So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

    One part of Daniel which could have remained sealed for most people until recently is the understanding of Daniel 12:11-12.

    Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days; then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

    It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

    This can refer to the millennium.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Firstly we are in agreement that all of Ezekiel 40-48 remains to be fulfilled in the future.

    Lets look at the 'prince', or ruler, of Ezekiel 45: He is the governor of the people, not their King, as Jesus will be later, during the Millennium, and as we are told in Hosea 1:11 and Jeremiah 30:21, he is elected by the people. The Lord will allow him to approach Him, in the same way as Moses and David did.
    He receives a Land portion, he makes burnt offerings to make atonement for the sins of the House of Israel.
    He has sons, Ezekiel 46, who receive inheritance.
    This leader, governor, or prince, is NOT and cannot be, Jesus. He will be the person referred to by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15-19, one of their own people, like Moses and the Lord will tell him what to say. This doesn't fit with Jesus Returned from heaven.
    [I am aware that Acts 3:22-23 and Acts 7:37 infers that this person could be Jesus, but that is the final fulfilment, as this leader will be as Moses was: obeying the Lord's direction, not as Jesus will be: with all authority, ruling the world with a rod of iron.]

    You reject this idea of a gathering in the holy Land before the Return of Jesus, because it is something you weren't taught or have ever considered. But the Biblical evidence of how the Lord's righteous people will travel to and settle in all of the holy Land before Jesus comes back physically to the earth, is overwhelming. Many prophesies tell how the people will know the Lord is with them, by His deeds not be His presence and how it is them who witness to the world.
    The proof of the holy people of God being in the Land, is how the Anti-Christ comes to them, Revelation 12:13, Daniel 11:29-35 and has power over them for the last 3 1/2 years before the Return. Daniel 7:25, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 12:7, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:7
    Continued denial and rejection of God's plans isn't right, even if you are locked into believing the world will continue much as it is now until the Return, everyone should hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst. However what is prophesied, isn't anything bad for those who love the Lord, we should be looking forward to a great future.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The prince in Ezekiel 45:22 could be a resurrected David (Ezekiel 34:24, Ezekiel 37:25b), just as we will also reign as kings and priests on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

    Also, note that in Ezekiel 45:22, the original Hebrew word (nasiy': H5387) translated as "prince" can refer to a king. For the same word is used in Ezekiel 12:12-13 to refer to king Zedekiah (2 Kings 25:4-7).

    Note that neither verse requires any election by the people.

    Regarding Hosea 1:11, it can refer to the millennium, when the "one head" of Israel will be Jesus (cf. Isaiah 9:6-7). When Hosea 1:11 says that they will "appoint themselves" one head, the original Hebrew word (suwm: H7760) translated as "appoint" can mean "regard", in the sense of giving heed to, such as regarding (suwm) God's Word in Exodus 9:21, or regarding (suwm), in the sense of caring about, that people are perishing in Job 4:20. So the original Hebrew translated as they shall "appoint themselves one head" can simply mean "they shall give regard to one head". I.e., they will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their one true king (Isaiah 43:15, John 1:49, John 12:13).

    Regarding Jeremiah 30:21, note that "their governor" could refer to "Nehemiah the governor" (Nehemiah 12:26) during the return of the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity (Jeremiah 30:18). It could also refer to Jesus during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-11), after the captivity which will occur right before his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).

    This could refer to David's sons which he had before he died (in ancient times), and who got saved while they were still alive (in ancient times), and so they will get resurrected at Jesus' 2nd coming.

    Or, if the prince in Ezekiel 46:18 isn't a resurrected David, it could refer to an unsaved, elect, genetic-Israelite leader of the house of David who survived the tribulation and then got saved, along with all other surviving, unsaved, elect genetic Israelites, when they saw Jesus at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). They could all remain in their mortal bodies, and so have offspring during the millennium. For at the 2nd coming, the resurrection and changing of believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), which won't have offspring (Luke 20:35-36), could be only for those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

    Note that Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15,19 (and Acts 3:22-23), which scripture Peter says "foretold of these days" (Acts 3:24,26), i.e. foretold of that time in the 1st century AD. For at Jesus' 1st coming, he was raised up from the midst of the Israelites (Deuteronomy 18:15, Romans 1:3). And we must hearken to what Jesus taught (John 14:23-24, Deuteronomy 18:15), or we will be destroyed (John 3:36, Deuteronomy 18:19).

    Note that Jesus will always follow the LORD's (YHWH's) direction, in the sense of God the Father's direction. For even though Jesus is also YHWH God (e.g. John 1:1,14, Zechariah 14:3-4), he still does nothing of himself, but as his Father shows him (John 8:28).

    Note that no scripture requires that the entire church will move to the holy land before Jesus returns.

    Note that in Revelation 12:13, the woman can represent people in the church all around the world.

    Daniel 11:30c,32a can refer antitypically to Orthodox Jews in Israel who will apostatize and follow the Antichrist to keep from being killed by him.

    Daniel 11:33-35 refers to the persecution of people in the church (not in hiding) throughout the world during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), immediately after which tribulation, Jesus will return and gather together (rapture) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

    Note that here the holy people can be those in the church all around the world.

    Zechariah 14:2,5 can refer to unsaved, elect genetic Jews in Jerusalem.

    This will be a persecution against people in the church in all nations (Matthew 24:9-14).

    Before Jesus returns (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), the church will have to go through the future, horrible, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31).
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Now I realize what Bible2+ means.
    I have started a new thread on the subject of: Do the Lord's people inhabit the Land before the Return?
    You can of course, post there, but I will report you if you post lengthy spiels of your own ideas.

    Thanks for your persistence at least, it enables me to respond and point out what the Bible says. You have completely failed to convince me of your ideas and I hope that the viewers of this thread have at least, been given food for thought.
    Join me on this new thread and I trust everyone will prayerfully consider the Bible truths presented.
     
  13. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

    +480
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    The scriptures are not missing information any believers will need for life of Christian faith, and there is coming deception, and there has been deception up to now. The elect are those that can be sure of the certainty of their salvation, which is shown in the Bible in a number of places. They may possibly be deceived without it meant that they lose salvation, and they are really not coming to apostacy. I have known examples of such who were deceived, but returned to truth from what had deceived them. And most of us still are deceived or in error in some things, it is certain we are not generally agreeing to everything. This is a separate issue, but there are other threads where this certainty of salvation is shown, and where it can be discussed while staying on topic. But those who come to apostacy are not among the truly saved believers, the elect, as in Romans 8 verses 28 to 39.

    When any who come to Christ the Lord and salvation through him still love certain sin so much, with this salvation they are set up for real discipline from the heavenly Father. Salvation is all God's work, with it accomplished through Christ, and our response of faith. Through this come any of our godly works, which must come, but salvation isn't depending on that.

    I will agree that having animal meat was permitted after the flood, it was after the flood, in the cursed world, with access to the better diet, from the perfection provided from the beginning, not available then, and with speaking on responsibility to life, and the issue of murder, needing to be addressed then. It is definitely not shown in scripture that this was meant to always continue, and a time is sure to come that it won't. Nothing shows it to be expedient. This concession was not a requirement or even with it being advisable. Communicating the reasons not to have it is with the facts that there are, neither having any association with gnostic teaching, nor with giving commandments that are not for us to give, and not speaking condemnation to any. If we are not to speak of any reason to not have it for the sake of others' liberty, you by the same reason should not speak against another drinking, or even slavery. You can show what information you think there is to find about how it is more healthy to continue having meat, but I have plenty of information available that shows to the contrary, it is healthier even to give up any animal products, and continue with a good variety of whole foods, not processed, in a plant-based diet. With this it just remains important to still use food fortified with vitamin B12, but many meat eaters are still deficient in that vitamin, it is not just a vegan issue.

    Not having meat is truly called for, in view of many issues, such as, but really not limited to, there being use of a great amount more of land, water, and resources, a great contribution to greenhouse gases being released, and more people starving and dying, with the same dependence on meat continuing.

    There are great examples showing how healthy such change is among vegans. This is one example, http://www.veganmuscleandfitness.com/success-stories/

    It is certain, and more should know, that a whole food plant-based diet is very much healthier, fighting and even reversing heart and circulatory problems, various cancers, type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and other problems. There are further examples of that, such as this,
    http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/success-story/success-story-details/ruth-h
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding "the certainty of their salvation", are you thinking of the idea of once-saved-always-saved?

    If so, note that the Bible itself doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

    Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

    Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

    Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

    All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

    And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

    Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

    Note that Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or the right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

    This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

    Regarding Romans 8:28-39, it indeed applies only to "them who are the called according to God's purpose" (Romans 8:28), i.e. the elect (Romans 8:33). But note that Romans 8:28-39 applies only to those elect who "love God" (Romans 8:28), meaning those who continue to obey him (1 John 5:3). The elect, even after they get saved, can wrongly employ their free will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12).

    Regarding Romans 8:38-39, it means that nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 isn't contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

    Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says "neither death, nor life", it means that neither saved people's continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless saved people wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

    That's right, which means that the ability of believers (although not their choosing) to repent from and to confess to God every sin they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure they know they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It is only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' 2nd coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

    If saved people become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus' warning, and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

    Are you thinking of Philippians 2:13?

    If so, note that while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

    Note that 2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, along with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, i.e. to become utterly lazy, without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) doesn't automatically produce good works. That is why saved people must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for saved people to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Are you thinking of Philippians 1:6?

    If so, note that while Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work which he has begun in saved people, other passages show that he will do this only if they continue to cooperate with him, work along with him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and don't wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
     
  15. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I fail to understand why people post books that few really read. Maybe it is an ego thing.
     
  16. Straightshot

    Straightshot Member

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    Those who do this are generally trying to convince themselves that what they copy and paste, or create themselves is true .... trying to proof out their views

    It is always better to make postings short and to the point
     
  17. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    I am not going to respond to your many points, which I didn't finish reading, but I'm calling you out on these two.

    This is not the gospel!!! A person does not have to be water immersed to be saved. It is an act of obedience, but it is not a salvation issue.

    By your definition, the repentant thief is not actually in paradise, which Jesus promised him. He didn't march off the cross to get water baptized and put himself back on before dying for his crimes.

    Listen to what John says about Jesus:

    Matthew 3:11
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Since Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit (at the moment of salvation), water baptism is a symbol to show people what has already taken place.

    Again, I point to the thief on the cross. How was he saved? He didn't even know about communion, much less take it. And there is nothing divine in the bread and the wine, contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches. Jesus died once and for all. The bread and the wine of communion are symbols of what has already taken place--the breaking of Christ's body and the shedding of Christ's blood.

    I agree "once saved always saved" is bad doctrine, but so is "you must be water immersion baptized to the saved" and "you must take communion to be saved."
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    And the gospel is that we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme the Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

    Note that the Bible itself shows that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Believers can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

    Besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

    Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

    Some people feel that baptism can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

    Regarding immersion, note that the Bible itself shows that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by having some water merely sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

    Note that the thief on the cross could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant wasn't put into legal effect until Jesus died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died, so baptism wasn't yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, believers have to obey all his New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including his commandment that every believer get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a saved person can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.

    Note that John 6:53-57 shows that all believers, for their ultimate salvation, need to eat the bread of communion (Matthew 26:26) and drink the wine of communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:27-30) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

    In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when believers partake of communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or else they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

    Amen (Hebrews 7:27b). And communion is a partaking of Jesus' one-time sacrifice (1 Corinthians 11:26).
     
  19. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with you on just about every point. What happened in the beginning (people water baptized before Jesus died and rose again or before the day of Pentecost) is not valid to what happens today. Believers receive the Holy Spirit (are baptized with the Holy Spirit) when they come to the Lord in repentance and faith. By the power of the Holy Spirit, they are changed into a new creation, to the glory of God. They must abide in Christ/continue in their faith for the rest of their lives. Communion is a remembrance of what Jesus has done for us, like baptism except that it can be done periodically. He is not divinely in the elements of bread and the fruit of the vine.

    You are making it too complicated for people to enter into the kingdom of heaven! The Bible doesn't teach what you are saying, that water immersion baptism is required for salvation or that communion is required for salvation. I urge you to repent! I'm not going to write again.
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
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    Amen.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

    Everyone, both believers and unbelievers, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they are able to exist (Acts 17:28, Psalms 104:30) and have human consciousness (John 1:9). Believers have some greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to understand and believe the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:12-16, John 20:22, Luke 24:45-47). Believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16, Acts 19:2a,6) have an even greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to operate in one or more of the Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). Because Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), he has the Spirit in an infinite amount, beyond measure (John 3:34).

    Regarding baptism, note that what has been presented in prior posts is the Biblical teaching on baptism, which should be considered as milk, not meat (Hebrews 5:12 to 6:3).

    If people haven't become Christians yet, all they need to do in order to become Christians is believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he suffered and died on the Cross for their sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    After people become Christians, to help develop and keep up their relationship with God, they should pray to him every day, such as with the Lord's prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), praising and worshipping him (Revelation 4:11), confessing their sins to him (1 John 1:9), asking him for what they need today (Luke 11:3), and thanking him for everything which he has given them (Philippians 4:6). And throughout the day, they should immediately bring to him in prayer anything which they become worried about at anytime (Philippians 4:6-7).

    They should also fellowship with other Christians every day (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum, being exhorted by them and exhorting them in turn (Hebrews 3:13).

    They also need to examine themselves to make sure they are truly in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12). The way to do this is to read every word of the Bible (Hebrews 4:12, Matthew 4:4), and see if they accept everything it teaches as having come from God (John 8:47; 2 Timothy 3:16). For just as a true faith will initially come from reading (or hearing) what the Bible teaches (Romans 10:17; 2 Timothy 3:15), so people can know they are remaining in the true faith if they continue to believe that everything the Bible teaches came from God (John 8:31b; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 1 Timothy 4:1, Mark 8:35-38).

    In order to have any real relationship with Jesus, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19), most importantly people must believe the right things about Jesus (John 14:6-7): that he is God the Word made flesh (John 1:1,14), that he is the Christ (1 John 5:1; 1 John 2:22), and that he is the only begotten (only born) Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), meaning that he is the only person ever born without any human father (Luke 1:34-35). And people must believe that Jesus lived a perfectly sinless life (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21) and so could die on the Cross for people's sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). He rose and will remain forever in an immortal flesh and bones human body (Luke 24:39; 2 John 1:7) as saved people's eternally-human high priest/mediator (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26).

    Once people come into faith in Jesus, they must obey him, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit by repenting from their sins and getting water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:27). And they must partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And they can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 8:17) and one or more of the Holy Spirit's wonderful Spiritual gifts (Acts 19:6; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). Then, washed from their sins by water baptism (Acts 22:16), and empowered by the Holy Spirit within them (Acts 1:8, Ephesians 3:16), they must each and every day for the rest of their lives deny themselves, take up their crosses, and follow Jesus (Luke 9:23; 2 Corinthians 5:15), by continuing in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12), by repenting from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), and by doing to the end the particular spiritual works which he has given them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8, Titus 3:8).

    But if they as believers wrongly employ their free will to refuse to do these things, then they can't expect to have any continued real relationship with Jesus, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. For a continued real relationship with them requires that people not only continue to believe in them, but also continue to obey them (John 15:10, John 14:21,23). Faith without works is dead (James 2:20), and can't ultimately save people (James 2:14-26, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9).
     
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