Futurist Only Damascus and animals

[FredVB]

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[FredVB]

Regarding "all the points", note that Bible prophecy isn't missing any information, insofar as in it, Jesus has told believers everything they need to know in order not to be deceived by anything that is coming: "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "Take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 13:5).


That is, the main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation, is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided or deceived by anything that is coming, and not commit apostasy during the tribulation, to the ultimate loss of their salvation.

Are you thinking of the following verse?

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If so, note that here the original Greek doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, it simply says "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan, as part of Satan's intention to deceive as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says that it is impossible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you", meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets, who will appear in our future.

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:1 or after their salvation (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it is possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation.

The fact that a saved person can be deceived into committing apostasy doesn't mean that Satan is stronger than God, or that God would for no reason abandon a saved person, but means that the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" applies even to a saved person.

That is, one way that a saved person could be deceived into committing apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

So saved people need to be living righteously now, they need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation. For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm. Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm. They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy, the departure from the faith, which will occur during the future tribulation, to the ultimate loss of their salvation.

Note that eating meat is not only permitted, but also expedient. For "God hath created [meats] to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer" (1 Timothy 4:3b-5).

The scriptures are not missing information any believers will need for life of Christian faith, and there is coming deception, and there has been deception up to now. The elect are those that can be sure of the certainty of their salvation, which is shown in the Bible in a number of places. They may possibly be deceived without it meant that they lose salvation, and they are really not coming to apostacy. I have known examples of such who were deceived, but returned to truth from what had deceived them. And most of us still are deceived or in error in some things, it is certain we are not generally agreeing to everything. This is a separate issue, but there are other threads where this certainty of salvation is shown, and where it can be discussed while staying on topic. But those who come to apostacy are not among the truly saved believers, the elect, as in Romans 8 verses 28 to 39.


When any who come to Christ the Lord and salvation through him still love certain sin so much, with this salvation they are set up for real discipline from the heavenly Father. Salvation is all God's work, with it accomplished through Christ, and our response of faith. Through this come any of our godly works, which must come, but salvation isn't depending on that.


I will agree that having animal meat was permitted after the flood, it was after the flood, in the cursed world, with access to the better diet, from the perfection provided from the beginning, not available then, and with speaking on responsibility to life, and the issue of murder, needing to be addressed then. It is definitely not shown in scripture that this was meant to always continue, and a time is sure to come that it won't. Nothing shows it to be expedient. This concession was not a requirement or even with it being advisable. Communicating the reasons not to have it is with the facts that there are, neither having any association with gnostic teaching, nor with giving commandments that are not for us to give, and not speaking condemnation to any. If we are not to speak of any reason to not have it for the sake of others' liberty, you by the same reason should not speak against another drinking, or even slavery. You can show what information you think there is to find about how it is more healthy to continue having meat, but I have plenty of information available that shows to the contrary, it is healthier even to give up any animal products, and continue with a good variety of whole foods, not processed, in a plant-based diet. With this it just remains important to still use food fortified with vitamin B12, but many meat eaters are still deficient in that vitamin, it is not just a vegan issue.


Not having meat is truly called for, in view of many issues, such as, but really not limited to, there being use of a great amount more of land, water, and resources, a great contribution to greenhouse gases being released, and more people starving and dying, with the same dependence on meat continuing.


There are great examples showing how healthy such change is among vegans. This is one example, http://www.veganmuscleandfitness.com/success-stories/


It is certain, and more should know, that a whole food plant-based diet is very much healthier, fighting and even reversing heart and circulatory problems, various cancers, type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and other problems. There are further examples of that, such as this,

http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/success-story/success-story-details/ruth-h

Regarding "the certainty of their salvation", are you thinking of the idea of once-saved-always-saved?

If so, note that the Bible itself doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end. And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation.

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works.

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of communion.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit was performed by Satan.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead.

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end.

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end.

Regarding Romans 8:28-39, it indeed applies only to "them who are the called according to God's purpose", i.e. the elect. But note that Romans 8:28-39 applies only to those elect who "love God", meaning those who continue to obey him.

Regarding Romans 8:38-39, it means that nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 isn't contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation.

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says "neither death, nor life", it means that neither saved people's continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying.

Are you thinking of Philippians 2:13? If so, note that while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing, he doesn't take away their free will.

Initial salvation, being born again, is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved.

Initial salvation by grace through faith without works doesn't automatically produce good works. That is why saved people must be careful to maintain good works.

Yes, I speak of always being saved when once saved. As I had said, this is a separate issue, but there are other threads where this certainty of salvation is shown, and where it can be discussed while staying on topic. You make assumptions on meanings in what is referenced, with ideas added into those, that are seen to be faulty with further scriptures, and you repeatedly show the phrases "initially saved people" and "obtain ultimate salvation only if", which don't occur anywhere in scriptures. Being born again does not refer to being "initially saved". And "elect" where it occurs is talking about those who are saved and remain saved, they already do love Yahweh God and come to being obedient to him. They will do God's work, and will be enduring in the end. The Romans 8 passages are not limited as it was suggested here, it is clear nothing separates believers from God's love, and God does not give up on them. And once saved, being in error in some belief is not going to negate the salvation. Anything else thought is having salvation being of our work instead. Those that such is not true of were not "initially saved", they were never saved, and the evidence will be seen. This has no relevance to having free will, which isn't contested. You gave a different meaning, in error, for overcoming. Having one's name blotted out of the book of life is not speaking of saved people, the elect. But this should be taken to another thread, where scriptures for it can be discussed, so as not to derail this thread with doctrines, which don't have to do with the topic of the thread, and may possibly have it closed. I won't then say anything more about it in this thread.

My other points already made still stand.

Relevant to the topic, though, is that the Antichrist will not overcome believers, and won't have that power to.

 

[Bible2+]

FredVB said in post 322:

. . . you repeatedly show the phrases "initially saved people" and "obtain ultimate salvation only if", which don't occur anywhere in scriptures.

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

FredVB said in post 322:

And "elect" where it occurs is talking about those who are saved and remain saved . . .

Regarding the elect being "those who are saved", note that the elect are elected (chosen) even before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). During their lifetime, the elect are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they are elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while the elect can't become nonelect, after they become initially saved they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).

FredVB said in post 322:

And "elect" where it occurs is talking about those who are saved and remain saved . . .

The "elect" are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

FredVB said in post 322:

And "elect" where it occurs is talking about those who are saved and remain saved, they already do love Yahweh God and come to being obedient to him. They will do God's work, and will be enduring in the end. The Romans 8 passages are not limited as it was suggested here, it is clear nothing separates believers from God's love, and God does not give up on them. And once saved, being in error in some belief is not going to negate the salvation. Anything else thought is having salvation being of our work instead. Those that such is not true of were not "initially saved", they were never saved, and the evidence will be seen.

Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people can't choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who doesn't persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

FredVB said in post 322:

You gave a different meaning, in error, for overcoming. Having one's name blotted out of the book of life is not speaking of saved people, the elect.

Note that any saved person can ultimately have his name blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), he can ultimately lose his salvation and be cast into the 2nd death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14 and 1 John 4:4 don't contradict this, for these verses don't give any assurance that every saved person will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that believers can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those believers who do overcome to the end won't have their names blotted out of the book of life, and won't be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of saved people "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and the gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

FredVB said in post 322:

. . . the Antichrist will not overcome believers, and won't have that power to.

Note that Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Waterwerx]

You guys don't have to agree with me but I believe this prophecy will be fulfill by next year, possibly after March. Just sharing my opinion too.









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It's all good until you start saying things along the lines of "Jesus will be riding a white-painted crane with a huge iron wrecking ball, with all the saints a-singing while He's a-swinging."

 

[Psalm3704]

It's all good until you start saying things along the lines of "Jesus will be riding a white-painted crane with a huge iron wrecking ball, with all the saints a-singing while He's a-swinging."

I'm not sure what you're getting at but the topic of discussion where I made that comment was on the fulfillment of Isaiah 17, not Revelation 19.









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[FredVB]

Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people can't choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who doesn't persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

As I said I won't debate this topic in this thread further, chancing as I would with it that my posts will be deleted for being off topic from moderation, which I hate to have happen, which I have learned can happen. The unbiblical belief of "initially saved" and "ultimately saved" can be discussed in another thread proper for that. I see how the false understanding is used in verses used for that position, which are easily dealt with. But I am not Calvinist, Calvinists I have communicated with about this subject dealing with salvation have their own narrow views as well, and dismiss my position as Arminian. But the position that salvation is secure is counter to free will is rubbish. Salvation is the work of Yahweh our God, not at all a matter of our work or about our having free will, which it happens we do. But the position that the salvation which is from God's doing, that God stays involved in, may be lost with our free choices, logically leads to the false belief that salvation is your doing, and not God's work with grace provided to you. Believers may have assurance, as God's word provides for, not when they aren't really saved, but with having a changed life with the repentance in faith, coming to Christ, having assurance that they are saved and having everlasting life now. Those that don't have it and will turn from it without persevering are unrepentant, assurance is not for them but to those who know they are repentant. The ones who are lazy and not doing what is according the will of Yahweh are unrepentant.

Involved in the topic here, animals will be used in tribulation times possibly as badly as they are now, which is not good, but Christ is returning and Antichrist which cannot overcome believers by rule, though there will be those martyred, will be overthrown, and those things that are not right will be ended.

 

[Bible2+]

FredVB said in post 326:

But the position that the salvation which is from God's doing, that God stays involved in, may be lost with our free choices, logically leads to the false belief that salvation is your doing, and not God's work with grace provided to you.

Regarding "the false belief that salvation is your doing", note that NOSAS doesn't make people their own savior, for only Jesus can save people (John 14:6, John 3:36) by his sacrifice (Romans 3:25), and the ability that he gives to saved people to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from any sin that they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. All NOSAS does is admit that there is no assurance that every saved person will choose to continue to do all these things to the end.

 

[FredVB]

Regarding "the false belief that salvation is your doing", note that NOSAS doesn't make people their own savior, for only Jesus can save people (John 14:6, John 3:36) by his sacrifice (Romans 3:25), and the ability that he gives to saved people to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from any sin that they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. All NOSAS does is admit that there is no assurance that every saved person will choose to continue to do all these things to the end.

True, that position doesn't necessarily mean any with that are making themselves their own savior. But that position is not consistent with Jesus' salvation, for it is not at all from our works. Overcoming to the end is the sign, to ourselves for assurance and to those among us of that real redemption. Yahweh does not need that as a sign for it is Yahweh knowing the real atonement in one that preserves that one, with God's Spirit, and the work of Christ. We can know of this, 1 John 5:13, and Romans 8:28-29, and Romans 8:38-39. People will fail, but God's work in people that are redeemed doesn't stop, and also, love of God when it is there does not stop.

God our Creator though loves all creatures. We should grow in being more loving, and more compassionate. This isn't limited with God.

 

[Bible2+]

FredVB said in post #328:

. . . and also, love of God when it is there does not stop.

Note that it can (Matthew 24:12-13).

FredVB said in post #328:

God our Creator though loves all creatures.

Note that God does not love everyone. For he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his character to be made known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I thought you guys were going to start another thread?

 

[FredVB]

I thought you guys were going to start another thread?

I was not saying I would discuss this in another thread, maybe another poster somewhere said something for there to be a new thread about it. I did say that topic about whether or not it is once saved always saved should be discussed on a thread for it.

Note that it can (Matthew 24:12-13).

No, that conclusion is with reading the two verses there about the same group of people. The love of many is not about believers, but people of the world in the end generally. The ones enduring to the end are the real believers. They are not the same people.

During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy, because he created them to be vessels of his wrath. They were of old ordained to condemnation. They were appointed to disobedience. But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin. All people will be justly held accountable for their deeds, because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

I separated this out to say it is from scriptural passages, and you seem to have the right understanding from it, which I would agree with.

Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.

No, I don't think this. Yahweh's mercy would apply if all were saved, still. God is not willing that any would just perish, but rather repent with which they can be saved, 2 Peter 3:9.

Note that God does not love everyone. For he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22).

That text does not say God hates the nonelect. God hating one, as Esau who is used as an example, is relative to the love of those who turn to godliness. As none are desired to have perish, Yahweh gives all something for opportunity, likely a lot for that. At some point those are cut off from more opportunity who will not turn with repentance with what is available through Christ. Such would be hardened, rightly.

I can stand by this, that the Creator cares for all creatures. This has relevance to the thread title.

 

[Bible2+]

FredVB said in post #331:

The love of many is not about believers, but people of the world in the end generally.

Note that Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

FredVB said in post #331:

God is not willing that any would just perish, but rather repent with which they can be saved, 2 Peter 3:9.

2 Peter 3:9b means that God is not willing that any of the elect perish, but that all of the elect repent. For the "any" and the "all" refer back to the "us" (or "you"), which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10). God is willing that the nonelect perish, for he purposely created them to perish (Romans 9:21-22). The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), and he gives it only to the elect. For he is not willing that the nonelect repent (Romans 9:18-22).

FredVB said in post #331:

God hating one, as Esau who is used as an example, is relative to the love of those who turn to godliness.

Romans 9:13 employs God's hatred for Esau (Malachi 1:3) as a type of God's hatred for the nonelect. And Romans 9:13 employs God's love for Jacob (Malachi 1:2b) as a type of God's love for the elect (Romans 9:11-13).

That is, Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals which they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

FredVB said in post #331:

I can stand by this, that the Creator cares for all creatures. This has relevance to the thread title.

Indeed it does. And thank you for resurrecting a thread that had been dead for six months. The OP should be proud of its huge number of views.

 

[FredVB]

Note that Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

I notice that they will all be observant of sabbaths, Matthew 24:20, And pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath.

2 Peter 3:9b means that God is not willing that any of the elect perish, but that all of the elect repent.

I don't notice a 9b displayed there, elect is a word read in there. I do know that God is love, 1 John 4:8, we love because God loves. And love gives opportunity.

Hate in these cases is relative, the way we are to hate our parents to love Jesus, and it is for lives of unrepentant sin. The unrepentant are not true Christian believers.

The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God.

I agree with that, indeed. And God commands all, everywhere, to repent, Acts 17:30, so it is available to all, as it was to the Philippian jailer and his family, Acts 16:30-31, and the thief on the cross with Jesus on his, Luke 23:42-43, and ..., I could keep going on.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

OK, since you will not start another thread, I will have to ask to have this one closed.

 

[Bible2+]

FredVB said in post #333:

I notice that they will all be observant of sabbaths, Matthew 24:20, And pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath.

Note that Matthew 24:20 doesn't require the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect, as far as God is concerned, at the future time Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5).

--

Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, don't have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the 10 commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as mistaken as saying Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking they have to because it's part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, they're as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking they have to because it's part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They've become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They've placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

So no Christian should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Christians need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Christians must never judge other Christians for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

For its letter was merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus Christ Himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all Christians enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works, as in those done apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:4-5), every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

--

Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early Church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the first day of the week, was the day on which Jesus Christ physically resurrected (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John the apostle. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it's not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5). Christians are never to judge each other over this matter but are simply to do what they believe Jesus Christ wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point isn't for Christians to esteem days but to focus on the person of Jesus Himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

Also, how do those who think they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant sabbath, keep the letter of the sabbath of Leviticus 25?

--

FredVB said in post #333:

2 Peter 3:9b means that God is not willing that any of the elect perish, but that all of the elect repent.

I don't notice a 9b displayed there . . .

The "b" just means the 2nd half of 2 Peter 3:9.

FredVB said in post #333:

. . . elect is a word read in there.

From the "us" and the context (2 Peter 1:10).

FredVB said in post #333:

I do know that God is love, 1 John 4:8 . . .

Amen.

But note that God being love (1 John 4:8,16) doesn't mean He loves everyone (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13), just as God being a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) doesn't mean He's consuming everyone in fire (Revelation 14:10-11). Also, God chastens those whom He loves during their lifetime (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6), but not everyone receives chastening from God during their lifetime (Hebrews 12:7-8). Therefore, God doesn't love everyone.

FredVB said in post #333:

The unrepentant are not true Christian believers.

Note that nothing requires that.

For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that true Christian believers, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians say Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But note the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way a Christian could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christian there's no way they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

FredVB said in post #333:

God commands all, everywhere, to repent, Acts 17:30, so it is available to all . . .

No, for note that God can command something so sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful (Romans 7:13). God hardens the nonelect in their sin because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:18-22).

FredVB said in post #333:

. . . it is available to all, as it was to the Philippian jailer and his family, Acts 16:30-31, and the thief on the cross with Jesus on his, Luke 23:42-43 . . .

Since they believed, they must have been elect (cf. Acts 13:48b).

Also, regarding your reference to Acts 16:30-31, verse 31 is what Christians should preach to everyone (Mark 16:15-16). They should never assume anyone is nonelect and so unable to ever believe in Jesus Christ (John 8:42-47, John 10:26-27). Also, even when Acts 16:31 is unknowingly preached to someone who's nonelect it isn't a lie. For it's not saying: "You as an individual definitely have the ability to believe", but is simply saying: "If you as an individual do believe, you will be saved". It's like if a man on a ship fell overboard into icy water and cried out to people on deck: "What must I do to be saved?". The people threw him a rope and said: "Grab this rope and you will be saved". What they didn't know was his hands had become so icy-cold from the water he'd lost all use of them and so he couldn't possibly grab the rope.

Also, while the apostle Paul and Silas would have been aware some people can't ever believe in Jesus Christ (John 8:42-47, John 10:26-27), there's no reason they would have shared this with the jailer when he asked them what he must do to be saved (Acts 16:30). Similarly, in the analogy above even though the people who threw the man the rope could have been aware of the possibility he might not be able to grab the rope, there's no reason they would share that with the man when he asked them what he must do to be saved. The man would have found that out right away on his own when he tried to grab the rope and found he'd lost all use of his icy-cold hands, just as if the jailer had been nonelect, he would have found out right away on his own he had no capacity to believe.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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