dad'd "Box"

[Electric Sceptic]

Well, two main aspects of reality must be considered.

The uncaused first cause required by Big Bang cosmology:
Creation and Big Bang Cosmology
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/creation.html

The historical fact of the resurrection of Christ:
The Evidence For Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html

Evidence for the Resurrection
by Josh McDowell
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

And - surprise, surprise - all these texts evangelising christianity end up coming to the conclusion that christianity is correct!

 

[Matthew777]

And - surprise, surprise - all these texts evangelising christianity end up coming to the conclusion that christianity is correct!

This statement only verifies your ignorance and closedmindedness. A serious, impartial study of both topics would show the existence of the Trancendent.

 

[nvxplorer]

Well, two main aspects of reality must be considered.

The uncaused first cause required by Big Bang cosmology:
Creation and Big Bang Cosmology
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/creation.html

The historical fact of the resurrection of Christ:
The Evidence For Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html

Evidence for the Resurrection
by Josh McDowell
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

Would you paste a few relevant quotes from those articles, Matthew?

I have a question for you, and I don't mean to stir things up, but I'm curious. Is there any record of the historical Jesus outside the Gospels?

 

[Matthew777]

I have a question for you, and I don't mean to stir things up, but I'm curious. Is there any record of the historical Jesus outside the Gospels?

Well, of course. Jesus Christ is one of the most well-supported figures of ancient history.

Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
The historical documents referring to Christ's life and work may be divided into three classes: pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources. We shall study the three in succession...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

 

[Osiris]

Well, two main aspects of reality must be considered.

The uncaused first cause required by Big Bang cosmology:
Creation and Big Bang Cosmology
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/creation.html

The historical fact of the resurrection of Christ:
The Evidence For Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html

Evidence for the Resurrection
by Josh McDowell
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

I came accross this in there:
Here we confront the very crucial question of the burden of proof. Should we assume that the gospels are reliable unless they are proven to be unreliable? Or should we assume the gospels are unreliable unless they are proven to be reliable? Are they innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent? Sceptical scholars almost always assume that the gospels are guilty until proven innocent, that is, they assume that the gospels are unreliable unless and until they are proven to be correct concerning some particular fact. I’m not exaggerating here: this really is the procedure of sceptical critics.

But I want to list five reasons why I think we ought to assume that the gospels are reliable until proven wrong: Some Opinions

We could say the same for the Quran and Mohammed using the paragraph and the said opinions. Anyways, what I see from this is that this guy is starting off using bad logic.

There was another link that talked about the Big Bang, I really didn't see how that could prove the historicy of the bible.

But I guess I'll keep looking into those sites.

 

[Matthew777]

I have a question for you, and I don't mean to stir things up, but I'm curious. Is there any record of the historical Jesus outside the Gospels?

Well, of course. Jesus Christ is one of the most well-supported figures of ancient history.

Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
The historical documents referring to Christ's life and work may be divided into three classes: pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources. We shall study the three in succession...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

In terms of relevant quotes, one must read these kind of articles in their entirety in order to understand the main point.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Would you paste a few relevant quotes from those articles, Matthew?

I have a question for you, and I don't mean to stir things up, but I'm curious. Is there any record of the historical Jesus outside the Gospels?

No, despite Matthew's blithe assurances, there is not one single record of the historical Jesus outside the gospels. The only mentions of him in extra-gospel sources are years or decades after his death, mentioning him at second hand, as the founder of a movement. It's as if we had not one single record of Martin Luther King except for records written today talking about "black civil rights, a movement founded by Martin Luther King".

 

[Matthew777]

There was another link that talked about the Big Bang, I really didn't see how that could prove the historicy of the bible.

Ultimately, the Big Bang proves the necessity of a personal God.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

This statement only verifies your ignorance and closedmindedness. A serious, impartial study of both topics would show the existence of the Trancendent.

Ooooooh, so you resort to insult when people don't agree with you. Let me try it and see how it works...

This claim only verifies your ignorance and closedmindedness. A serious, impartial study of both topics would not show the existence of the Trancendent.

There, that was easy. But, amazingly, it means no more when I do it than when you do it. Claims are easy to make...supporting them is harder.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Ultimately, the Big Bang proves the necessity of a personal God.

The Big Bang does not prove the necessity of any god, much less a personal one.

 

[Matthew777]

No, despite Matthew's blithe assurances, there is not one single record of the historical Jesus outside the gospels.

Is this closedminded ignorance striking again?

Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Is this closedminded ignorance striking again?

Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

You might try giving the insults to those who disagree with you a break. Not a very good witness for Jesus - you know, love and all that?

 

[Matthew777]

You might try giving the insults to those who disagree with you a break. Not a very good witness for Jesus - you know, love and all that?

Was King David not a good witness of the Lord?:

"The fool says in his heart, There is no God."
Psalm 14:1

What about Saint Paul?:

"But if we–or even an angel from heaven–were to preach a different gospel than the one we preached to you–then let him be eternally damned!" Galatians 1

 

[dad]

Dad,

I'm going to grant your assertion of the spiritual. Here's the problem. Since the spiritual can only be "detected" on an individual basis, there's no way you can show the spirirual is consistent for everyone. You can devise your own "laws" of spirit, but your laws may not apply to the spirits of others.

You and I can both observe the physical, but we cannot know each others spiritual experience.

Jesus was detected by many, even after rising from the dead. The flood was detected by many as well, most of whom were washed away. Love, I'd say is God, and is detected in one form or another worldwide! As far as devising our own laws of the spirit, I'd say they need to check out with the bible. I think the laws are already devised by God, all we can do is study them as best we can. So, nothing really all that 'individual' about it.

 

[Osiris]

Was King David not a good witness of the Lord?:

"The fool says in his heart, There is no God."
Psalm 14:1

If King David only assumed the Lord like most preachers, what would be the difference if a preacher said, "The fool says in his heart, There is no God."?

What about Saint Paul?:

"But if we–or even an angel from heaven–were to preach a different gospel than the one we preached to you–then let him be eternally damned!" Galatians 1

What if God does indeed exist; and angels too. And they are way different than what the bible tells us about them. If an angel came to tell us about this God, we would totally turn them away because of an assumption made in the bible.

Matthew, it is not that I don't want to believe. It is that I find it suspicious that an all knowing god would give as his message through selected men's writing, rather than give us the message himself just the same way gave the message to these selected men. I don't really see what would be the trouble in this, since God is all powerfull and all.

 

[nvxplorer]

Well, of course. Jesus Christ is one of the most well-supported figures of ancient history.

Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
The historical documents referring to Christ's life and work may be divided into three classes: pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources. We shall study the three in succession...

Thank you. I'm going over this now. The pagan sources come from people who weren't alive during Jesus lifetime. Jesus' contemporaries Philo and Josephus aren't exactly what I was looking for either. I'm looking for something like a Roman record or something written by an author/scribe outside the gospel who either witnessed Jesus work, or knew of it. Something during Jesus' lifetime.

 

[Osiris]

Jesus was detected by many, even after rising from the dead. The flood was detected by many as well, most of whom were washed away....

My neighbor told me that he saw God Krishna appear to him. He also told me that 50,000 other people saw this too. I didn't really speak to any of the 50,000 other people, but I guess 50,000 witnesses to Krishna must mean that Krishna is true, right?

 

[dad]

Not only boys...

[No, girls too, of all colors, and weights, and heights, etc etc]


But if you think that way, you are only thinking inside the box... you are limiting what spirits really are... that they inside themselves have sbirits, that when spirits die, sbirits live on....
[A parable is not equal in all mouths. The bible, for example, as the premier, best selling authority on spirits clearly doesn't support this impishly shallow ill conceived idea. So, although it may be a silly idea out of the box of physical only based science, it is also out of the revealed truth of God's word. It also is out of common sense, and reason.]



It's funny how when there is brain damage, spirits don't seem to do anything... ... or ... or... maybe spirits only work if brains work!
[How do you know? Have you studied cases of damaged brains worldwide to come up with some results? I don't think Lazurus's brain had anything to do, for example with him being raised from the dead after some days of death!]

.

 

[dad]

My neighbor told me that he saw God Krishna appear to him. He also told me that 50,000 other people saw this too. I didn't really speak to any of the 50,000 other people, but I guess 50,000 witnesses to Krishna must mean that Krishna is true, right?

I don't see why not, do you? The thing I ask is not if spirits are just real, but are they of God, and good? The bible tells me the acid test.
1Jo 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: ..".

 

[dad]

Stretching the limits by insisting that our understanding of the Bible must contradict physical reality.

The limits is a good way to put it. The limits of the box. If we can't stetch them we are all doomed! The bible clearly tells us they will be more than stretched as heaven and the new earth comes. Why would I not also take His word that physical only present limits were not there to stop the flood, or men living a thousand years, or plants growing quickly, etc? Hec, yes, we are limited thus now, but were not and will not be, according to the Living God!