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[dad]

I am not supporting Marxism, I will make that very very clear, I already said it was too idealistic to ever hope to actually work, and yes, communism in Soviet Russia and China is based off of his work, but in Marxism there is no strong national government. Rather, locally resources are distributed as needed, while all people work as hard as they can to the best that they can be for a roughly equal portion of resources, with no rich and no poor.

Since the AntiChrist leader is to come, and he will not be Marxist, because he will oblige worship, I guess Marxism is relegated to the dustbin of history.

Humans aren't mindless ants, so I always view this as inevitably going wrong, and history kinda shows that people just aren't responsible enough not to seize power when there is a power gap.

Sinners seizing power is inevitable.

I also don't support the fact that Marx would have expected religion to be eliminated, I am not an antitheist, I don't feel that religion in and of itself is bad.

If wishes were horses...he might have succeeded. As it is he failed. Belief in God and even other worship will never be eliminated. Men will be compelled to worship the final leader soon.

 

[Subduction Zone]

" The historical record suggests that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city, but the siege of the island “probably ended with the nominal submission of the city” in which Tyre surrendered “without receiving the hostile army within her walls” (p. 45). The city of Tyre was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar, who did major damage to the mainland as Ezekiel predicted, but the island city remained primarily unaffected. It is at this point in the discussion that certain skeptics view Ezekiel’s prophecy as a failed prediction. Farrell Till stated: “Nebuchadnezzar did capture the mainland suburb of Tyre, but he never succeeded in taking the island part, which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur. That being so, it could hardly be said that Nebuchadnezzar wreaked the total havoc on Tyre that Ezekiel vituperatively predicted in the passages cited” (n.d.). Till and others suggest that the prophecies about Tyre’s utter destruction refer to the work of Nebuchadnezzar.
After a closer look at the text, however, such an interpretation is misguided. Ezekiel began his prophecy by stating that “many nations” would come against Tyre (26:3). Then he proceeded to name Nebuchadnezzar, and stated that “he” would build a siege mound, “he” would slay with the sword, and “he” would do numerous other things (26:7-11). However, in 26:12, the pronoun shifts from the singular “he” to the plural “they.” It is in verse 12 and following that Ezekiel predicts that “they” will lay the stones and building material of Tyre in the “midst of the waters.” The shift in pronouns is of vast significance, since it shifts the subject of the action from Nebuchadnezzar (he) back to the many nations (they). Till and others fail to see this shift and mistakenly apply the utter destruction of Tyre to the efforts of Nebuchadnezzar.
Furthermore, Ezekiel was well aware of Nebuchadnezzar’s failure to destroy the city. Sixteen years after his initial prediction, in the 27th year of Johoiachin’s captivity (circa 570 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE]), he wrote: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it” (29:18). Therefore, in regard to the prophecy of Tyre as it relates to Nebuchadnezzar’s activity, at least two of the elements were fulfilled (i.e., the siege mound and the slaying of the inhabitants in the field)."


https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1790

I would think that the final fulfillment would be in the end. We see that Tyre is prophesied to be here at the end!!


Ps 87:4 -I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
Mt 11:22 -But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. The end time period, or day of the Lord as it is also called, involves Tyre.


Joel 3:1-8 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; So we have Nebuchadnezzar doing things, Alexander, and also the final fulfillment in the end.

Is there anyone who actually knows the bible and prophesy that would disagree with me on this?

Sorry, I am not going to bother with a wall of text.

Your article still made the mistake of mistaking the onshore cities as "Tyre". Not even the Bible verse made that mistake. In the Bible it clearly calls the onshore cities Tyre's "settlements". They were not Tyre.

And yes, Zeke did realize that he had failed as a prophet.

So what part of the failed Tyre prophecy don't you understand? Even Zeke knew that he was wrong.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Look closer and you will see that I cited God and His word.

Since the AntiChrist leader is to come, and he will not be Marxist, because he will oblige worship, I guess Marxism is relegated to the dustbin of history.
Sinners seizing power is inevitable.

If wishes were horses...he might have succeeded. As it is he failed. Belief in God and even other worship will never be eliminated. Men will be compelled to worship the final leader soon.

Seeing as even in the bible no one will ever see the Antichrist coming or predict it, shouldn't the fact that you think it will happen soon indicate it won't?

 

[biggles53]

I am not supporting Marxism, I will make that very very clear, I already said it was too idealistic to ever hope to actually work, and yes, communism in Soviet Russia and China is based off of his work, but in Marxism there is no strong national government. Rather, locally resources are distributed as needed, while all people work as hard as they can to the best that they can be for a roughly equal portion of resources, with no rich and no poor.

Humans aren't mindless ants, so I always view this as inevitably going wrong, and history kinda shows that people just aren't responsible enough not to seize power when there is a power gap.

I also don't support the fact that Marx would have expected religion to be eliminated, I am not an antitheist, I don't feel that religion in and of itself is bad.

In fact, he showed a level of compassion for the religiously minded....despite the oft-quote mined reference to "opiate of the people", the full quotation demonstrates that Marx understood and empathised with people who placed their reliance upon faith.....

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself. "

 

[PsychoSarah]

In fact, he showed a level of compassion for the religiously minded....despite the oft-quote mined reference to "opiate of the people", the full quotation demonstrates that Marx understood and empathised with people who placed their reliance upon faith.....

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself. "

I am well aware that Marx didn't want religion to be eliminated really, only that he expected that to happen. I have read portions of his work, including the Communist Manifesto, for school.

 

[biggles53]

anyatheword, why did you change the word that was used in Isaiah? The word used was not "b'tutlta" or any variation on it. That word actually does mean virgin. And the writer of Isaiah did use that word when he wanted to get across the concept that indeed a virgin was the subject. Isaiah used the word "almah" meaning young lady.

Now since it would be extremely amazing if a virgin had a baby why did he not use that specific word that he had used elsewhere. Instead he used the ambiguous word "almah" which means young woman.

And you still have not even touched upon the multiple errors about the Roman census.

Because, by relying upon that as the ONLY translation of almah, she gets to keep her fantasy story intact.

Her problem is that, just as with the exodus myth, THE JEWS THEMSELVES disagree with her...! (After all, it's their bloody language that's in dispute...they should know better than anyone else...!). Rabbi Singer and others give examples of 'almah' wherein it could NOT possibly be translated as 'Virgin'....and it only takes one to upturn the apple cart.....

 

[biggles53]

I am well aware that Marx didn't want religion to be eliminated really, only that he expected that to happen. I have read portions of his work, including the Communist Manifesto, for school.

Yep...that won't stop fundies like dad, though, who would want to portray him as some evil maniac that wanted religion rooted out wherever it was found....

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am well aware that Marx didn't want religion to be eliminated really, only that he expected that to happen. I have read portions of his work, including the Communist Manifesto, for school.

Sadly I went to school when Marx and communism were taken to be one. He was not a subject in high school back in the stone age.

 

[biggles53]

Now...I'd like Anya to explain how we get striped and coloured goats by having the parents stare at striped sticks while they copulate.....!

Good luck....!

 

[dad]

Seeing as even in the bible no one will ever see the Antichrist coming or predict it, shouldn't the fact that you think it will happen soon indicate it won't?

The coming of the wicked one coincides with a lot of other things. Rather than predicting a time, many believers simply note that the ducks are all in a row for the first time.

 

[dad]

Yep...that won't stop fundies like dad, though, who would want to portray him as some evil maniac that wanted religion rooted out wherever it was found....

What, you thought he wanted it planted everywhere?

 

[dad]

Sorry, I am not going to bother with a wall of text.

Your article still made the mistake of mistaking the onshore cities as "Tyre". Not even the Bible verse made that mistake. In the Bible it clearly calls the onshore cities Tyre's "settlements". They were not Tyre.

And yes, Zeke did realize that he had failed as a prophet.

So what part of the failed Tyre prophecy don't you understand? Even Zeke knew that he was wrong .

I would think that the final fulfillment would be in the end. We see that Tyre is prophesied to be here at the end!!


Ps 87:4 -I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
Mt 11:22 -But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. The end time period, or day of the Lord as it is also called, involves Tyre.


Joel 3:1-8 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; So we have Nebuchadnezzar doing things, Alexander, and also the final fulfillment in the end.

Is there anyone who actually knows the bible and prophesy that would disagree with me on this?

 

[PsychoSarah]

The coming of the wicked one coincides with a lot of other things. Rather than predicting a time, many believers simply note that the ducks are all in a row for the first time.

Not really, the supposed signs are vague enough that there have been quite a few times in which people jumped the gun when it came to the apocalypse. Did you know that some people thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist, because his first, middle, and last names all have six letters, therefore making his name like the mark of the beast 666

 

[dad]

I am well aware that Marx didn't want religion to be eliminated really, only that he expected that to happen. I have read portions of his work, including the Communist Manifesto, for school.

By making everything about the material, and promoting a godless philosophy, no place is left for God, whatever he claimed.

Those who embraced Marxism like Mao or Stalin or early commies fought God.

 

[PsychoSarah]

By making everything about the material, and promoting a godless philosophy, no place is left for God, whatever he claimed.

Those who embraced Marxism like Mao or Stalin or early commies fought God.

The actions committed by those who follow a philosophy shouldn't be held to the philosopher if they aren't advocated in the philosophy.

He thought that in a system in which many of the ills of society were gone (in the ideology), religion would die out.

 

[dad]

The actions committed by those who follow a philosophy shouldn't be held to the philosopher if they aren't advocated in the philosophy.

I agree. That is why I do not associate Christianity with the vile acts of nommies in history. Nominal believers who believe in name only. I guess the bible nailed it when it labeled false religion harlots.

He thought that in a system in which many of the ills of society were gone (in the ideology), religion would die out.

OK. Guess who died out?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I would think that the final fulfillment would be in the end. We see that Tyre is prophesied to be here at the end!!


Ps 87:4 -I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
Mt 11:22 -But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. The end time period, or day of the Lord as it is also called, involves Tyre.


Joel 3:1-8 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; So we have Nebuchadnezzar doing things, Alexander, and also the final fulfillment in the end.

Is there anyone who actually knows the bible and prophesy that would disagree with me on this?

Yes, I would.

You are lowering the value of all Old Testament prophesies.

The Tyre prophesy was meant to affect the people at the time it was given. It is still a terribly failed prophesy and even Ezekiel new it.

Pulling a verse that just happens to mention the obviously still existing Tyre has nothing to do with the original failed prophesy.

 

[anyathesword]

anyatheword, why did you change the word that was used in Isaiah? The word used was not "b'tutlta" or any variation on it. That word actually does mean virgin. And the writer of Isaiah did use that word when he wanted to get across the concept that indeed a virgin was the subject. Isaiah used the word "almah" meaning young lady.

Now since it would be extremely amazing if a virgin had a baby why did he not use that specific word that he had used elsewhere. Instead he used the ambiguous word "almah" which means young woman.

And you still have not even touched upon the multiple errors about the Roman census.

Did you read what I posted or not? Sometimes you have to reread it several times to see what the link says. I changed no words, I have no idea what you are talking about. If what I posted above does not make sense to you, you can say that. Because I see that you don't understand what I posted.

I don't know much about the Roman census.

 

[anyathesword]

And repeating an error, that Almah had not been used for a nonvirgin, does not help your side. In the Song of Solomon there is a an example of Almah definitely not meaning virgin but young woman.

What about here?

Song of Solomon 1:3
Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins ('almah) love thee.

Song of Solomon 6:8
There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins('almah) without number.


Now compare:
Genesis 24:43
Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin ('almah) cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

With:
Genesis 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin (Bethuwlah), neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

Do you see the difference here? Both passages in the same chapter of Genesis use ALMAH and BETHUWLAH to mean VIRGIN.

The word ALMA refers to a young unmarried woman one of whose characteristics is virginity. There is no instance where the word ALMA is used to refer to a non-virgin. In such passages as Gen. 24:43 (compare Gen. 24:43 with 24:16 where BETULAH appears) and Song 1:3; 6:8 ALMA clearly refers to virgins. In fact the Hebrew Publishing Company Translation of 1916 translates ALMA as "virgin" in Gen. 24:43 and in Song 1:3; 6:8. Moreover an ancient Ugaritic tablet was discovered which uses ALMA in synonymous poetic parallelism as the synonymous parallel to the cognate of BETULAH. For this reason one of the worlds leading Semitists, Dr. Cyrus Gordon who is Jewish and does NOT believe in the virgin birth of Yeshua maintains that Is. 7:14 may be translated as "virgin" (Almah in Isaiah 7:14; Gordon, Cyrus H.; JBR 21:106). So why would Isaiah have used ALMA rather than BETULAH? Because a BETULAH can be a young married woman who is not a virgin, but pure because she is married (as in Joel 1:8).
Isaiah 7:14: The Virgin Birth of the Messiah

Do you understand now? Savvy? It means Virgin my friend. The prophecy was fulfilled without problems.

And I am using a Hebraic Roots Ministry Website. That means its a Jewish website.

 

[anyathesword]

Sorry, I am not going to bother with a wall of text.

Your article still made the mistake of mistaking the onshore cities as "Tyre". Not even the Bible verse made that mistake. In the Bible it clearly calls the onshore cities Tyre's "settlements". They were not Tyre.

And yes, Zeke did realize that he had failed as a prophet.

So what part of the failed Tyre prophecy don't you understand? Even Zeke knew that he was wrong.

What? The fulfillment of the prophecy for Tyre has happened already.

There is a Mainland Tyre and an Island Tyre.

Around 13 nations plus Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the Great all conquered this city. Alexander used the rubble from the Mainland city to build a causeway to defeat the Island city. Tyre is a place for fishing.

3) Critics then move on to their most serious charge: Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy the island city of Tyre. Clearly the prediction failed, and this failure is even admitted by Ezekiel himself (29:17-21) when he predicts that God will give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar's troops as payment for their hard work in besieging Tyre.

Before responding to this, we must note two features in the prediction. The first is the opening statement that God will bring "many nations" against Tyre, "like the waves of the sea" (verse 3). This is a clear indication that we should not expect one nation or one attack to produce the severe destruction and final state of desolation that Ezekiel predicts. Second, we note that the attacker changes from singular (he) to plural (they) between verses 11 and 12. Up through verse 11, Ezekiel describes Nebuchadnezzar entering the gates of the city, trampling its streets, and slaying people. Verses 12 and following describe later waves of attackers (they) who take booty, destroy the city, and throw its debris into the water.

A closer look at Ezekiel 29:17-21 reveals that God's (and Ezekiel's) stated concern is not that Tyre was not taken, but that the troops did not receive adequate pay for their efforts. The historical record is clear that Nebuchadnezzar finally subjugated Tyre even though he did not raze the island. Babylonian records refer to a new king ruling Tyre after the siege, to the royal family of Tyre living in Babylon (in exile), and to a Babylonian official who governs Tyre.[22]

Nebuchadnezzar, like Esarhaddon a century before him, waged a conventional land-based attack against the mainland portion of greater Tyre. He successfully captured the mainland, but not before most of the occupants had a chance to flee to the island fortress, taking the best of their goods with them. After a 13-year siege, the island was starved into submission, and became a vassal of Babylon. There was a change of leadership and undoubtedly some tribute paid, but the island was not pillaged. Given the minimal return for their effort, God rewarded Nebuchadnezzar's troops by granting them success against Egypt. Ezekiel 29:17-21 is not 'making lemonade out of a lemon' or trying to cover for a failed prophecy; it is simply rewarding the first of the many waves of nations that will follow.
Is Fulfilled Prophecy of Value for Scholarly Apologetics? - bethinking.org