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DogmaHunter

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Moses was definitly not a myth!!!

Actually, he definatly was. As is exodus. Jews were never mass slaves in egypt and most certainly no mass of slaves ever walked out of egypt to wonder around the desert. This simply never happened.

His name is actually Egyptian!

And Peter Parker is an english name. But Spiderman isn't real either.

Egyptian heiroglyphs and other archeological evidence show the existance of Hebrew slaves and Moses.

That's simply not true.
 
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biggles53

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Anya, even the Jews themselves have given up the quest of finding the "title deeds" (as I believe David Ben-Gurion once referred to it) as evidence of their claim to the Palestine. Even they now accept that the Exodus was a mythical account...

But, you know better...? Just as you know better about evolutionary theory...?
 
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anyathesword

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So you think Osiris, Horus, et. al. were real people?

Yes, real Fallen angels. Where do you think gods and goddesses come from?

Where do people come up with such strange myths and religions?

It has got to come from somewhere.
 
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anyathesword

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Actually, he definatly was. As is exodus. Jews were never mass slaves in egypt and most certainly no mass of slaves ever walked out of egypt to wonder around the desert. This simply never happened.



And Peter Parker is an english name. But Spiderman isn't real either.



That's simply not true.

Ok then explain to me what this heiroglyph looks like?
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/arch...II-hebrews-making-mud-bricks-thebes-luxor.jpg

And these Amarna Tablets? The Habiru are the Hebrews:
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-amarna-tablets.jpg

Sure it did, why wouldn't it have happened?
 
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Gracchus

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So you think Osiris, Horus, et. al. were real people?
Yes, real Fallen angels. Where do you think gods and goddesses come from?
Where do people come up with such strange myths and religions?
It has got to come from somewhere.
Gods, goddesses, strange myths, and religions come out of people's heads, the same place we get fairy tales and other fictions.

:wave:
 
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DogmaHunter

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Yes, real Fallen angels. Where do you think gods and goddesses come from?

Where do people come up with such strange myths and religions?

It has got to come from somewhere.

Yes. It's called superstition and imagination.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Ok then explain to me what this heiroglyph looks like?
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/arch...II-hebrews-making-mud-bricks-thebes-luxor.jpg

And these Amarna Tablets? The Habiru are the Hebrews:
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-amarna-tablets.jpg

Sure it did, why wouldn't it have happened?

Nothing in those links supports the biblical exodus.

Also, try a source that doesn't have "bible" in the URL. Point me to a scientific source of independent archeology.
 
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Strathos

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Yes, real Fallen angels. Where do you think gods and goddesses come from?

Where do people come up with such strange myths and religions?

It has got to come from somewhere.

Dad was implying they were human beings.
 
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biggles53

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Nothing in those links supports the biblical exodus.

Also, try a source that doesn't have "bible" in the URL. Point me to a scientific source of independent archeology.

Not possible......the confirmation bias is strong in this one......
 
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anyathesword

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Nothing in those links supports the biblical exodus.

Also, try a source that doesn't have "bible" in the URL. Point me to a scientific source of independent archeology.

If you think about it for just one minute, wouldn't it make sense to have biblical archeology searching for biblical events? Why would other archeologists be searching for evidence of the Exodus?

Believe it or not, the Exodus is a Biblical Event.

However, read this:

"Evidence for ancient events is very difficult to come by. Sometimes, to be sure, indications of an event’s historicity is uncovered but more often all that can be done is to see whether the event can plausibly fit into what is presently known about the historical period. Lack of direct evidence does not disprove an ancient event. Nor can the existence of evidence only in later literary texts be taken as an argument against their reliability; the discovery of ancient Troy came about on the evidence of the much later writings of Homer."

"We may not possess, at least at present, conclusive proof that the Israelites left Egypt en masse as the Bible describes. What we do have, though, are several indications of the Exodus’ historicity, and ample evidence that the biblical account is entirely plausible.

It is a simple matter to claim that lack of clear, decisive external confirmation of the biblical account is itself a disproof, but no rational person believes that what has not been proven is false. What can be stated with certainly, however, is that there is no consensus that the Exodus is a myth."

Has the Exodus Really Been Disproven? - Lawrence H. Schiffman
 
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BlackFlag

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Yes, real Fallen angels. Where do you think gods and goddesses come from?

Where do people come up with such strange myths and religions?

It has got to come from somewhere.

Did Star Wars happen? It had to come from somewhere, right?
 
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anyathesword

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Anya, even the Jews themselves have given up the quest of finding the "title deeds" (as I believe David Ben-Gurion once referred to it) as evidence of their claim to the Palestine. Even they now accept that the Exodus was a mythical account...

But, you know better...? Just as you know better about evolutionary theory...?

Who's they anyway? No, it hasn't been disproven.

The Israelite Exodus from Egypt

Yes, I probably do know that the Exodus has not been disproven and fits historical records well.

The Israelite Exodus from Egypt
 
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DogmaHunter

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If you think about it for just one minute, wouldn't it make sense to have biblical archeology searching for biblical events?

No, not at all. Because these people go in with pre-conceived beliefs and will be looking for things they can use to support what they already believe. In other words, they will give the answer before asking the question and then go into the field looking for specific things they can use to support their pre-defined answer.

Whereas an actual archeologist goes in with a blank mind and will look at all the evidence and only then form his conclusion.

An actual archeologists doesn't give an answer before asking the question.


Why would other archeologists be searching for evidence of the Exodus?

Why even search for it in the first place? If the event took place, evidence for it will surface. Let the data do the talking. Don't go in with preconceived notions. Because all that will result in is confirmation bias.

Believe it or not, the Exodus is a Biblical Event.

A biblical event, yes. Not an actual event.


"Evidence for ancient events is very difficult to come by. Sometimes, to be sure, indications of an event’s historicity is uncovered but more often all that can be done is to see whether the event can plausibly fit into what is presently known about the historical period. Lack of direct evidence does not disprove an ancient event. Nor can the existence of evidence only in later literary texts be taken as an argument against their reliability; the discovery of ancient Troy came about on the evidence of the much later writings of Homer."


That's a false analogy. Homer's writings weren't considered to be true by default due to religious motivations. The searches triggered by these texts are done to validate the texts, to see if they are thrustworthy or not. This is not the same thing and you know it.



"We may not possess, at least at present, conclusive proof that the Israelites left Egypt en masse as the Bible describes. What we do have, though, are several indications of the Exodus’ historicity, and ample evidence that the biblical account is entirely plausible.

It is a simple matter to claim that lack of clear, decisive external confirmation of the biblical account is itself a disproof, but no rational person believes that what has not been proven is false. What can be stated with certainly, however, is that there is no consensus that the Exodus is a myth."

[/quote]

Ignoring all the evidence against exodus will not help.

If more then a million jews were slaves of egypt, this would be documented in egyptian history. But it isn't.

If more then a million slaves simply walked out of Egypt into freedom, this would be documented not only in egyptian history, but also in the records of their neighbours and enemis, who would enjoy this embarassement a alot. But it isn't. Also, that many slaves suddenly leaving the country would have enormously extreme impacts on that society, especially ecomomically. To the point where it should collapse in on itself. You can't just get rid of a million free workers overnight and expect the country to have no problems. Not even only for slaves... I live in Belgium... if 1 million people would migrate out of Belgium overnight, Belgium would plummeth into a deep economic crisis. This would be pretty disastrous. There is no trace of such impact to be found anywhere. At all. Think about it.

If more then a million jews wondered the desert for decades, this would leave a trace in said desert. But this trace isn't there. We find evidence of small nomadic tribes, but somehow you expect me to believe that evidence of a group of a million people just evaporated.

Having said that, there's a lot of (actual) evidence that suggests that jews ARE caanites. More specifically, jews were the lower class who revolted against the elite. Culturally, it is VERY hard (if at all possible) to tell an early israelite from a caanite. The culture is almost identical.

Everything points to the lower class revolting against the elite, naming themselves "israel" and then coming up with a mythology to explain their history (much like the Romans did when explaining the foundation of Rome... )


Claiming that hundreds of thousands of jews were slaves in Egypt is a very bold claim that should be easily supportable by evidence.

Claiming that a million slaves simply walked out of egypt is a very bold claim that should be easily supportable by evidence.

Claiming that a million jews wondered around the desert for decades is a very bold claim that should be easily supportable by evidence.

Yet, none of these claims can be shown to be even only rooted in truth.
And there's plenty of reason to assume the opposite.

All you have is religious mythology.
 
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anyathesword

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Gods, goddesses, strange myths, and religions come out of people's heads, the same place we get fairy tales and other fictions.

:wave:

Really, just out of their heads that's it?

Then explain to me why so many (actually almost all) major cultures have the same fairy tales of dragons and flood myths?

And have gods with wristwatches, wings, and supernatural powers? And why different cultures seem to describe the same gods and godesses but with different names?

Myths are important to study. Very important. Without personal experience and experienced events, people don't just come up with such complex and similar stories that made up their culture.

You all are missing out on the pièces to a human history puzzle.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Really, just out of their heads that's it?

Yes. And you necessarily agree with it. If not, please explain where islam, mormonism and scientology comes from.

Then explain to me why so many (actually almost all) major cultures have the same fairy tales of dragons and flood myths?

They don't.


And have gods with wristwatches, wings, and supernatural powers? And why different cultures seem to describe the same gods and godesses but with different names?

Because humans everywhere tend to come up with the same ideas.
This is why several cultures around the world independently came up with the "golden rule" of treating others like you wish to be treated yourself. This is why several cultures around the world independently came up with supernatural myths about fire and the sun.

We are all pattern-seeking humans. It's no surprise that we come up with the same false-positives. We are fooled by the same optical illusions in the exact same way for the same reason.

Myths are important to study. Very important. Without personal experience and experienced events, people don't just come up with such complex and similar stories that made up their culture.

Again, it's not surprising that humans come up with somewhat the same ideas around the world. People reinvent the wheel all the time.

You all are missing out on the pièces to a human history puzzle.

The only one missing out on "human" things is you.
We are all humans, we are all pattern-seeking individuals. We all react somewhat in the same way when confronted with unknown things.

It's no coincidence that humans around the world come up with religions that center around roughly the same things (the sun, the stars, the tides, etc).

What you are missing out on is human nature and psychology
 
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anyathesword

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No, not at all. Because these people go in with pre-conceived beliefs and will be looking for things they can use to support what they already believe. In other words, they will give the answer before asking the question and then go into the field looking for specific things they can use to support their pre-defined answer.

Whereas an actual archeologist goes in with a blank mind and will look at all the evidence and only then form his conclusion.

An actual archeologists doesn't give an answer before asking the question.




Why even search for it in the first place? If the event took place, evidence for it will surface. Let the data do the talking. Don't go in with preconceived notions. Because all that will result in is confirmation bias.



A biblical event, yes. Not an actual event.




That's a false analogy. Homer's writings weren't considered to be true by default due to religious motivations. The searches triggered by these texts are done to validate the texts, to see if they are thrustworthy or not. This is not the same thing and you know it.

Ignoring all the evidence against exodus will not help.

If more then a million jews were slaves of egypt, this would be documented in egyptian history. But it isn't.

If more then a million slaves simply walked out of Egypt into freedom, this would be documented not only in egyptian history, but also in the records of their neighbours and enemis, who would enjoy this embarassement a alot. But it isn't. Also, that many slaves suddenly leaving the country would have enormously extreme impacts on that society, especially ecomomically. To the point where it should collapse in on itself. You can't just get rid of a million free workers overnight and expect the country to have no problems. Not even only for slaves... I live in Belgium... if 1 million people would migrate out of Belgium overnight, Belgium would plummeth into a deep economic crisis. This would be pretty disastrous. There is no trace of such impact to be found anywhere. At all. Think about it.

If more then a million jews wondered the desert for decades, this would leave a trace in said desert. But this trace isn't there. We find evidence of small nomadic tribes, but somehow you expect me to believe that evidence of a group of a million people just evaporated.

Having said that, there's a lot of (actual) evidence that suggests that jews ARE caanites. More specifically, jews were the lower class who revolted against the elite. Culturally, it is VERY hard (if at all possible) to tell an early israelite from a caanite. The culture is almost identical.

Everything points to the lower class revolting against the elite, naming themselves "israel" and then coming up with a mythology to explain their history (much like the Romans did when explaining the foundation of Rome... )


Claiming that hundreds of thousands of jews were slaves in Egypt is a very bold claim that should be easily supportable by evidence.

Claiming that a million slaves simply walked out of egypt is a very bold claim that should be easily supportable by evidence.

Claiming that a million jews wondered around the desert for decades is a very bold claim that should be easily supportable by evidence.

Yet, none of these claims can be shown to be even only rooted in truth.
And there's plenty of reason to assume the opposite.

All you have is religious mythology.[/QUOTE]

Is Jesus a myth to you or not?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Is Jesus a myth to you or not?

Jesus is a character, not an event.

And I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I have no problem assuming this story is based on an actual dude who preached a new religion (or who had some ideas that were changed into a religion by his followers). But it could just as well be that the character is a myth much like Hercules.

There certainly isn't any extra-biblical, independent and contemporary evidence supporting a historical jesus.

But I don't see how this is relevant to the subject at hand. Because we aren't talking about a character, we're talking about a rather massive event which should have had enormous impact accross the board. We're talking about the MORE people that attended freaking Woodstock '69. Have you ever seen a picture of the audience at this festival? Double the amount of people you see there and then imagine such an amount of slaves walking out of an ancient city.

Such an event would not go unnoticed. It WOULD leave extensive evidence all over the place. Yet, you have nothing, besides a single word mentioned on some tablet of which the meaning of the word is even heavily contested. And even if we assume that the word indeed refers to "hebrew", even then there isn't a single sentence on that text which suggests anything remotely similar to exodus.

It's simply laughable.
 
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anyathesword

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Jesus is a character, not an event.

And I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I have no problem assuming this story is based on an actual dude who preached a new religion (or who had some ideas that were changed into a religion by his followers). But it could just as well be that the character is a myth much like Hercules.

There certainly isn't any extra-biblical, independent and contemporary evidence supporting a historical jesus.

But I don't see how this is relevant to the subject at hand. Because we aren't talking about a character, we're talking about a rather massive event which should have had enormous impact accross the board. We're talking about the MORE people that attended freaking Woodstock '69. Have you ever seen a picture of the audience at this festival? Double the amount of people you see there and then imagine such an amount of slaves walking out of an ancient city.

Such an event would not go unnoticed. It WOULD leave extensive evidence all over the place. Yet, you have nothing, besides a single word mentioned on some tablet of which the meaning of the word is even heavily contested. And even if we assume that the word indeed refers to "hebrew", even then there isn't a single sentence on that text which suggests anything remotely similar to exodus.

It's simply laughable.

The first thing you need to do is to figure out if Jesus was real or not to you. Once you get this resolved, once you realize this man made huge claims about being the Son of God and about preaching all kinds of stuff that people base their lives on, then you will take this next point and think about it for a minute. Jesus talked about the Exodus, he based His teachings on it, on His own credibility and Authority:

"Jesus staked His reputation, authority, and credibility on the Exodus account’s reliability—on His confidence that the Israelites actually did eat manna in the desert as the Scriptures describe. If this account were not true, then Jesus was wrong, and so are some of His teachings.

Biblical historian Eugene Merrill describes the importance the Exodus has for the rest of the Bible:

The exodus is the most significant historical and theological event of the Old Testament because it marks God’s mightiest act in behalf of his people...To it the Book of Genesis provides an introduction and justification, and from it flows all subsequent Old Testament revelation...In the final analysis, the exodus served to typify that exodus achieved by Jesus Christ for people of faith, so that it is a meaningful event for the church as well as for Israel (1996:57–58)."

The Exodus Controversy

To say the Exodus did not happen is also like saying Jesus is a liar and His teachings are false and He isn't an important person and Christianity might as well collapse.



Next:
I see what you are saying, the Egyptians for sure should have plenty of heiroglyphics, statues, stories, whatever of this event happening. But do you know what happens when Kings or Pharoahs get humiliated or defeated? They destroy the evidence!!! How many times through history have people destroyed archeological evidence?

What about erasing the records of Hyksos rulers when they were expelled from Egypt?

What about Pharoah Thutmoses III who destroyed almost all records of Queen Hatshepsut, whom he despised?

What about some priests who eliminated almost all teachings of Pharoah Akhenaten, who made heretical religious reforms?

What about people even today are still not sure what really happened during the World Wars, some even deny the Holocaust happened!

The point is the Egyptians covered up and destroyed many records of past rulers and events to hide their shame. So imagine a huge group of slave people just escaped their country and destroyed the Egyptian army with no weapons! That would be humiliating for the Nation of Egypt. They have a history of covering up such events.




Although almost 200 years old, a statement by 19th-century writer H.L. Hastings regarding skeptics’ attacks on the Bible holds true:

For 1800 years, skeptics have been refuting and overthrowing this book, and yet it stands today as a solid rock...The skeptics, with all their assaults, make about as much impression on this book as a man with a hammer would on the Pyramids of Egypt. When a French monarch proposed persecuting Christians, an elderly advisor told him, “Sir, the Church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.” So the hammers of the skeptics have been pecking away at this book for ages, but the hammers are worn out, and the anvil still endures. If this book had not been the book of God, men would have destroyed it long ago. Emperors and popes, kings and priests, princes and rulers have all tried their hand at it; they have all died and yet this book lives on.The Exodus Controversy
 
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