Cursed is the ground....

[nonaeroterraqueous]

That lifespan has now increased past 80 (on average) in at least 28 countries (almost all are long term Christian - (notable exceptions include Israel and Japan and new Christian countries like South Korea). The length of lifespans continues to increase.

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia

I don't buy it. With all due respect to Wikipedia, I've done the work. The number they give for the United States doesn't match any recent report I know, nor does it match anything I've studied.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

There are 65,000 people in Japan who are over the age of 100. A 117 year old lady from Jamaica is supposed to be the oldest living person

I don't see your point. I never suggested that people never live over eighty, or whatever. The fact remains that the vast majority of a population not plagued by causes of early death will die between seventy and eighty. That's a fact. Age as a cause of death strikes the average person around seventy five, and the vast majority above seventy but below eighty.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Consequences are not the same as judgments. They are results of. So, in my opinion, when God said cursed is the ground for your sake, He declared the results of their actions.

Just a few verses earlier, God made a declaration, and life on Earth came into existence. If God declared the results of their actions, then he made it so. Otherwise, you claim some source external to God having power over the order of his creation, without his intent. I find that unlikely.

 

[mindlight]

God cursed the ground, and the terms of the curse were specific, and had nothing to do with living forever.
In the garden, all that Adam and Eve had to do was stretch out their hand to any tree, and all of the fruit of all of them was good for them. They did not have to work, to cultivate, at all. They were gardeners - dressing the garden. They were not farmers, tilling the soil. The former is a creative, artistic activity. The latter is hard, hard work.

At creation, the animals were given the herb of the field. But when placed in the Garden, specifically there, Adam and Eve were given the fruit of all of the trees to eat. They weren't in there planting vegetables, doing work.

Then came the fall. NOW Adam and Eve would eat "the herb of the field", NOW he would have to gain his bread by the sweat of his brow. NOW, outside the Garden, they would be in a world where, instead of EVERY tree being fruit bearing and good for food, most plants were not (and are not) good for food.

And God made it harder than even we have it, for he specifically spat on the ground (the word we translate as cursed literally means "spat upon") so that it would bring forth thistles, thorns and noxious weeds when Adam sought to plant it and scratch a living out of it.

That was the curse of the soil. It is described very specifically. And THAT curse was also very specifically removed by God after the Flood. It was not as hard, after the flood, to grow food from the ground. The ground was no longer perversely opposed to man, throwing out thistles and thorns. Sure, there are still weeds, but those are randomly arising, as opposed to the hostility of cursed ground that will push out thorns and thistles when Adam tries to cultivate it.

In any case, God himself says after the Flood that he will no longer curse the land, so if I'm to take Creation, Adam, Eve, the Fall, the Flood and the Ark literally, I'm also going to take that end of the curse literally as well. I can see no other way to read that language. It's pretty clear really.

Adam was created from the ground. His pathway to life was from the dust to living and walking with God in the garden. He was given responsibility to tend the life that grew in the garden. But one boundary was set. He should not eat from one tree cause if he did he would surely die. The woman took the fruit cause she thought it would advance her beyond what she was, that she would evolve to a higher level as a result. Adam took the fruit cause he listened to his wife. The punishment on the woman is thus that she was made subordinate with pains in childbirth. The punishment on the man was that the ground on which his living depended was cursed. What had previously nourished perfectly could not now prevent him returning to the dust from which he came. Now he must work harder and struggle against greater odds to gain food from the ground, but ultimately what he would glean was no longer perfect and life sustaining and he would surely die. These curses are beginning to be unwoven in some Christian societies but will never be perfectly so until Christs return. They were not undone in Gods promise to Noah

The second curse was the flood which catastrophically destroyed most life on earth. God will not destroy all life with a flood like this again is the meaning of his words there. It is clear there are innumerable judgments yet to come as the book of Revelation makes clear.

 

[mindlight]

I don't buy it. With all due respect to Wikipedia, I've done the work. The number they give for the United States doesn't match any recent report I know, nor does it match anything I've studied.

Despite being the richest country on the planet , indeed of all time. America does not make the list of countries that have average lifespans over 80. With what statistics would you dispute that? The two biggest reasons are an unequal health care system (so a lack of Christian compassion) and the obesity crisis (a failure of personal stewardship) in the USA.

 

[AlexDTX]

Just a few verses earlier, God made a declaration, and life on Earth came into existence. If God declared the results of their actions, then he made it so. Otherwise, you claim some source external to God having power over the order of his creation, without his intent. I find that unlikely.

As the First Cause, yes, I agree with you. But the creation was also given life independent from God. Otherwise we are just figments of his imagination. For example, as the first cause, God creates the system for reproduction. Thus we can say that he creates us in the womb, but the system is what creates us in the womb. When Genesis tells us that God rested on the seventh day, it does not mean he took a nap. Isaiah tells us that he never slumbers nor gets weary. Instead it means his work was done, just as a lawyer says he rests his case. It is complete and nothing more can be done. I don't believe that an omniscient God creates babies that he knows will be murdered in the womb. They are created through the process of reproduction. This is what I mean by consequences. He is declared to Adam what the consequence of his unbelief caused.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

"the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay" - since life spans have increased this last century just as the church globally has never been stronger and with Pentecostalism etc never so spirit infused.

Infused is something externally a/effecting change. Jesus said the Kingdom is within you...and that it does not come with observation (perceiving with our five senses/flesh). He wants us to KNOW in spirit and in Truth.

He brings peace to the ones who seek Him.
Phillipians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Our hearts and minds...are within...and He calls us to seek Him with all our heart and soul...which has to do with what happened with Adam's eyesight in the garden and the feast he ate prepared by the woman (helper) God opened his side to remove. One became two and now the two must become One (again) through (the door) and IN Christ. The journey/process of our soul in finding the son we are IN Christ.
"Because you listened to your wife" (helper) and ate the feast she prepared and the spirit of Truth (helper) in the new covenant and the feast He has prepared...revealing from within...which has to do with the spirit and the Bride...

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. Genesis 3:17

Adam was alone and had dominion. After eating what Eve prepared for him, their eyesight changed and God asks "Where art thou?, hast thou eaten...?" And "Who told you...?"...God's voice heard from without and not within...

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Now he must work harder and struggle against greater odds to gain food from the ground, but ultimately what he would glean was no longer perfect and life sustaining and he would surely die. These curses are beginning to be unwoven in some Christian societies but will never be perfectly so until Christs return. They were not undone in Gods promise to Noah

Perception is everything...where we are seeing from. The mystery hidden ...Christ IN us...The battle of our soul/self and spirit...losing our soul to find it (again). Restoration of all that the first Adam once possessed with God...made a living soul. The Last Adam...a life giving spirit. Duality within until we "SEE" the son that we are, have always been but blinded til Christ give us singleness of eye (again).

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Why do we think/perceive it only is possible after we physically die?

Noah's flood is a picture of baptism...he sent out the dove who found no rest for the soles of her feet...until the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan...

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

As the First Cause, yes, I agree with you. But the creation was also given life independent from God. Otherwise we are just figments of his imagination. For example, as the first cause, God creates the system for reproduction. Thus we can say that he creates us in the womb, but the system is what creates us in the womb. When Genesis tells us that God rested on the seventh day, it does not mean he took a nap. Isaiah tells us that he never slumbers nor gets weary. Instead it means his work was done, just as a lawyer says he rests his case. It is complete and nothing more can be done. I don't believe that an omniscient God creates babies that he knows will be murdered in the womb. They are created through the process of reproduction. This is what I mean by consequences. He is declared to Adam what the consequence of his unbelief caused.

Behold the lamb of God...slain before the foundations of the world...

In the creation week...plants and vegetation grew before the sun and moon were made...there was Day/light and Night/darkness before the sun was created. Which has to do with where we perceive from...five senses/sun realm or the Light of Christ...within.

 

[AlexDTX]

Behold the lamb of God...slain before the foundations of the world...

In the creation week...plants and vegetation grew before the sun and moon were made...there was Day/light and Night/darkness before the sun was created. Which has to do with where we perceive from...five senses/sun realm or the Light of Christ...within.

I am not clear where this conversation is going. The Words of God are always life, not death. I think we are in agreement in the power of His words since the entire creation was spoken into existence by God. It is not possible for God to speak anything but life and truth. Even His judgments are still create life, not death. The Flood removed living death and preserved life, that is, the 8 people who believed God in the Ark. But I don't see this conversation going anywhere, so let us drop it.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

I am not clear where this conversation is going. The Words of God are always life, not death. I think we are in agreement in the power of His words since the entire creation was spoken into existence by God. It is not possible for God to speak anything but life and truth. Even His judgments are still create life, not death. The Flood removed living death and preserved life, that is, the 8 people who believed God in the Ark. But I don't see this conversation going anywhere, so let us drop it.

It was in continuation with what you said...and that God had plan from the beginning...our unbelief in that has consequences. I wield no sword.

When Genesis tells us that God rested on the seventh day, it does not mean he took a nap. Isaiah tells us that he never slumbers nor gets weary. Instead it means his work was done, just as a lawyer says he rests his case. It is complete and nothing more can be done.

This is what I mean by consequences. He is declared to Adam what the consequence of his unbelief caused.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

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[juvenissun]

But does the Romans 8 passage imply the possibility that as men are redeemed and start to walk with God so also the curse on nature will be lifted and their lives become easier and longer again?

The Revelation says that the current earth will be faded away. That is a wonderful prophecy.

Physically, what is wrong with the current "cursed" earth? The Bible only mentioned that farmers have to fight the weeds and lean soil. This is a symbolic description to all known agriculture problems in human history. And, if take human off the earth, the current earth is really not that bad (do some people worship the earth?).

The earth is cursed in relative to a perfect human, while human itself is also cursed by sin. We have to die, both of sin, and of the cursed earth. Change and limitation of life span of human is only a consequence of the curses. What a powerful message given by some simple descriptions in the Genesis.