Cursed is the ground....

[mindlight]

In Genesis 3:17 -
"Cursed is the ground because of you"

In Romans 8:19-21
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Adam was originally created to live forever. But after the fall he died at 930 years of age. Noah was the last of the long lifers and died at 950 years old. His son died at 600 and thereafter lifespans declined dramatically. Moses died at 120. But after that there were few people over 100 in the bible if any. It was only in the twentieth century that this trend was reversed and lifespans started increasing again. But 120 or so still seems to be the maximum value.

So Gods curse on nature it seems can be measured in 2 phases. The first phase was the withdrawal of eternal life and the second of the millennial lifespans of preflood humans. It seems some kind of protection was stripped away as a result of the flood and life got harsher and shorter still.

But does the Romans 8 passage imply the possibility that as men are redeemed and start to walk with God so also the curse on nature will be lifted and their lives become easier and longer again?

EDIT: changed has to as

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

That's a very interesting interpretation. We can only hope that it's true.

 

[CrystalDragon]

In Genesis 3:17 -
"Cursed is the ground because of you"

In Romans 8:19-21
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Adam was originally created to live forever. But after the fall he died at 930 years of age. Noah was the last of the long lifers and died at 950 years old. His son died at 600 and thereafter lifespans declined dramatically. Moses died at 120. But after that there were few people over 100 in the bible if any. It was only in the twentieth century that this trend was reversed and lifespans started increasing again. But 120 or so still seems to be the maximum value.

So Gods curse on nature it seems can be measured in 2 phases. The first phase was the withdrawal of eternal life and the second of the millennial lifespans of preflood humans. It seems some kind of protection was stripped away as a result of the flood and life got harsher and shorter still.

But does the Romans 8 passage imply the possibility that has men are redeemed and start to walk with God so also the curse on nature will be lifted and their lives become easier and longer again?

Well, people are living a good deal longer now than in Biblical times...

 

[Hall]

[QUOTE="mindlight, post: 71546417,

But does the Romans 8 passage imply the possibility that has men are redeemed and start to walk with God so also the curse on nature will be lifted and their lives become easier and longer again?[/QUOTE]

Death in that passage means death of the spirit, death in the spirit usually means ending up not going to heaven.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

God cursed man's work and woman's childbearing. these were "facts of life" curses.

many today work crappy jobs their whole lives and anesthesia costs as much as 20 grand per childbirth which proceeded a 50% chance of a woman dying in labor.

 

[brinny]

In Genesis 3:17 -
"Cursed is the ground because of you"

In Romans 8:19-21
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Adam was originally created to live forever. But after the fall he died at 930 years of age. Noah was the last of the long lifers and died at 950 years old. His son died at 600 and thereafter lifespans declined dramatically. Moses died at 120. But after that there were few people over 100 in the bible if any. It was only in the twentieth century that this trend was reversed and lifespans started increasing again. But 120 or so still seems to be the maximum value.

So Gods curse on nature it seems can be measured in 2 phases. The first phase was the withdrawal of eternal life and the second of the millennial lifespans of preflood humans. It seems some kind of protection was stripped away as a result of the flood and life got harsher and shorter still.

But does the Romans 8 passage imply the possibility that has men are redeemed and start to walk with God so also the curse on nature will be lifted and their lives become easier and longer again?

Cursed is the ground....

The first thing that came to mind when reading the title of this thread and the first verse you posted is:

Weeds.

 

[brinny]

Genesis 4:15-16
Cain wore a tribal mark to protect him from other tribes (who were those). Then he went to the land of Nod which belonged to the Nodites. In their attempt to edit the history of early beginnings they failed to leave these glaring evidence out. The idea was to make their ancestor-ship point back to Adam and Eve. When they failed to fill in the blanks they introduced the great flood, starting everyone afresh from Noah, but there was no such thing. Some of these things are not even intentional but they do great harm when we wish to take everything as "Word of God." Read other historical books and you will get a slightly better idea what I mean. You will find a great deal of Christianity in Mithraism which was the dominant cult in the roman era; kind of like how popular Christianity is today.

I'm asking you where in the Bible you were basing your first post i responded to, on.

Where in the Bible does it back up any of what you posted in (post #4).

Thank you kindly.

 

[mindlight]

God never cursed anyone or the ground. Men existed long before Adam and Eve. The "Voice of the Lord" in the garden was not the voice of God himself, but the name given to the rank of the Angel that was with them in the garden. The Hebrews did not have a form of writing until their captivity in Egypt and they happened to infuse a lot of the creation story from other sources (every nation has a creation and a flood story). The Old Testament itself was not intended to be used as a world reference book but something to keep the Israelites together ("the special nation chosen by God"). Tread lightly.

The verses I quoted earlier seem to contradict your contention that there was no supernatural curse warping and diminishing the possibility of life on this planet.

If you believe the straightforward reading of scripture, that most Christians have held throughout history, then Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. Paul in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 clearly thinks that.

Genesis actually says that God walked with man in the garden (3:8) so you are contradicting scripture with your angel theory also.

The comparisons with other religions only go so far. The intent and meaning of scripture is very different and the Hebrew God unique amongst His rivals. But we would expect there to be echoes of the truth even in false religions of the time whether prior or later.

 

[mindlight]

Death in that passage means death of the spirit, death in the spirit usually means ending up not going to heaven.

The overall intent of Pauls First Man (Adam from the dust) and Last Man Jesus(born of the Spirit) is to describe the transition from man of flesh to spiritual man, from fallen to redeemed man. But within the passage there is an apparent implication for creation itself:

"the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay" - since life spans have increased this last century just as the church globally has never been stronger and with Pentecostalism etc never so spirit infused. Does that mean that the curse on our very natures and the nature of the world we live in has begun to be lifted.

 

[mindlight]

Genesis 4:15-16
Cain wore a tribal mark to protect him from other tribes (who were those). Then he went to the land of Nod which belonged to the Nodites. In their attempt to edit the history of early beginnings they failed to leave these glaring evidence out. The idea was to make their ancestor-ship point back to Adam and Eve. When they failed to fill in the blanks they introduced the great flood, starting everyone afresh from Noah, but there was no such thing. Some of these things are not even intentional but they do great harm when we wish to take everything as "Word of God." Read other historical books and you will get a slightly better idea what I mean. You will find a great deal of Christianity in Mithraism which was the dominant cult in the roman era; kind of like how popular Christianity is today.

Mithraism has largely perished from the earth even if there were echoes of truth there. To suggest that the actual historical resurrection of Jesus is a copy of a fictional event in a false religion is rather ludicrous though.

Since the bible is clear the flood is global and only Noah and his family survived your comments on Cain are rather redundant.

EDIT: added "even if"

 

[Hall]

The overall intent of Pauls First Man (Adam from the dust) and Last Man Jesus(born of the Spirit) is to describe the transition from man of flesh to spiritual man, from fallen to redeemed man. But within the passage there is an apparent implication for creation itself:

"the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay" - since life spans have increased this last century just as the church globally has never been stronger and with Pentecostalism etc never so spirit infused. Does that mean that the curse on our very natures and the nature of the world we live in has begun to be lifted.

I don't think so because we still live in a fallen world and the percentage of (true) Christians in this world is the minority by a high percentage. I believe that curse won't be lifted until the new Jerusalem.

 

[AlexDTX]

So Gods curse on nature it seems can be measured in 2 phases. The first phase was the withdrawal of eternal life and the second of the millennial lifespans of preflood humans.

I know the language seems to say that God cursed the ground, but I think it is more of a declaration of the consequence of Adam's fall. Adam never lost everlasting life. He still has it in heaven. What he lost was the chance for an immortal body, of which he will gain when Jesus returns. When we are all glorified, the lifespans of the antediluvians will seem like a drop in a bucket by comparison.

 

[brinny]

He brings peace to the ones who seek Him.
Phillipians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

I'd like to add, that upon Jesus the Christ's shedding of His blood and dying on the cross, peace was established between man and a Holy God, for those who put their trust in Jesus the Christ as their Savior.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Well, people are living a good deal longer now than in Biblical times...

Read Psalm 90:10

The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away.

Today's median lifespan is 75 for women and 74 for men, which fits in perfectly with the verse. I would estimate, from my own study, that 90% to 95% are dead by age eighty. I have to conclude that we are not living longer than in biblical times.

We are living longer than in Medieval times, where the median lifespan was around the mid-twenties. We're also living significantly longer than we were a hundred years ago. Somewhere between biblical times and now we lost a lot of longevity and are only now recovering.

Lots and lots of people think that lives were very short in biblical times, but Psalm 90:10 knocks that idea out of the water for me.

 

[mindlight]

I don't think so because we still live in a fallen world and the percentage of (true) Christians in this world is the minority by a high percentage. I believe that curse won't be lifted until the new Jerusalem.

Eternal life is definitely something that will wait for the return of Jesus, resurrection etc. The OP focus is really on whether the curse has been alleviated to some extent by the adoption of Christian compassion or stewardship agendas e.g. health care, diet, dealing with pollution, exercise, better agrarian management and by a reduction of the incidence of war globally also. Lifespans are currently increasing at a rate of a year a decade in many richer countries.

 

[mindlight]

I know the language seems to say that God cursed the ground, but I think it is more of a declaration of the consequence of Adam's fall. Adam never lost everlasting life. He still has it in heaven. What he lost was the chance for an immortal body, of which he will gain when Jesus returns. When we are all glorified, the lifespans of the antediluvians will seem like a drop in a bucket by comparison.

Actually it does say that:

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. Genesis 3:17

The implication being that whereas previously there had been easy productivity to the soil from now on it would require more effort to get the same results from it. This implies a reduction in its life quality and capacity and perhaps a warping and poisoning of its potential. Weeds would now strangle, toxins pollute and kill, insects devour and weather wither, flatten freeze or rot in a way not previously seen. The ecosystem was disrupted by Gods curse, its perfect harmony broken, its regenerative capacity diminished and its net benefit to human life reduced.

 

[mindlight]

Read Psalm 90:10



Today's median lifespan is 75 for women and 74 for men, which fits in perfectly with the verse. I would estimate, from my own study, that 90% to 95% are dead by age eighty. I have to conclude that we are not living longer than in biblical times.

We are living longer than in Medieval times, where the median lifespan was around the mid-twenties. We're also living significantly longer than we were a hundred years ago. Somewhere between biblical times and now we lost a lot of longevity and are only now recovering.

Lots and lots of people think that lives were very short in biblical times, but Psalm 90:10 knocks that idea out of the water for me.

That lifespan has now increased past 80 (on average) in at least 28 countries (almost all are long term Christian - (notable exceptions include Israel and Japan and new Christian countries like South Korea). The length of lifespans continues to increase.

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia

 

[Blade]

Yes and no.... I don't think many will understand.. praise God.. where you are.. around you.. yes.

 

[dqhall]

Read Psalm 90:10



Today's median lifespan is 75 for women and 74 for men, which fits in perfectly with the verse. I would estimate, from my own study, that 90% to 95% are dead by age eighty. I have to conclude that we are not living longer than in biblical times.

We are living longer than in Medieval times, where the median lifespan was around the mid-twenties. We're also living significantly longer than we were a hundred years ago. Somewhere between biblical times and now we lost a lot of longevity and are only now recovering.

Lots and lots of people think that lives were very short in biblical times, but Psalm 90:10 knocks that idea out of the water for me.

There are 65,000 people in Japan who are over the age of 100. A 117 year old lady from Jamaica is supposed to be the oldest living person. In the absence of a miracle, the oldest lady to give birth may have been a woman from India thought to have been 70 when she gave birth, the next oldest was 66. Typically a woman over 61 can't give birth.

Writing was invented roughly 5000 years ago when people in Mesopotamia began to make marks on storage jars indicating the contents stored in the clay pots. About 4000 years ago there were numerous writings with a larger vocabulary on clay tablets left by the third Sumerian Dynasty at Ur in lower Iraq. The tablets discovered and translated did not include information about the Garden of Eden or Methuselah (History Begins at Sumer, Samuel Noah Kramer).

 

[AlexDTX]

The ecosystem was disrupted by Gods curse,

This is the distinction I am making. It was not God causing the curse. He only declared the consequence of Adam's action. The curse of Adam's decision would have happened whether God told him or not in my opinion.

 

[mindlight]

This is the distinction I am making. It was not God causing the curse. He only declared the consequence of Adam's action. The curse of Adam's decision would have happened whether God told him or not in my opinion.

God had already warned Adam about death being the penalty for disobedience. So Adams disobedience is the reason for the curse and in a way I suppose God is therefore saying. I told you this would happen and now look it is happening.

 

[Vicomte13]

In Genesis 3:17 -
"Cursed is the ground because of you"

But don't miss the sequel, in Genesis 8:21 when, after the Flood, God removes the curse from the ground:

When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, the LORD said to himself: Never again will I curse the ground because of human beings, since the desires of the human heart are evil from youth; nor will I ever again strike down every living being, as I have done.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Adam was originally created to live forever. But after the fall he died at 930 years of age. Noah was the last of the long lifers and died at 950 years old. His son died at 600 and thereafter lifespans declined dramatically. Moses died at 120. But after that there were few people over 100 in the bible if any. It was only in the twentieth century that this trend was reversed and lifespans started increasing again. But 120 or so still seems to be the maximum value.

Numbers have significance in scripture. A day of the Lord is as a thousand years...Adam fell short by 70. (Daniel 9:24) Noah by 50 (Jubilee). 600 - man/flesh.

Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Moses died at 120, not having entered the Promised Land...

Eternal life...lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning. God wants us to know Him in spirit and in Truth...not by the flesh. The first Adam was made a living soul...the Last Adam a life giving spirit. In Christ we are a New Creation...newness of life. Reconciled. How many years the flesh lives is in relation to knowing the son that we are through (The Door) and IN Christ.

 

[AlexDTX]

God had already warned Adam about death being the penalty for disobedience. So Adams disobedience is the reason for the curse and in a way I suppose God is therefore saying. I told you this would happen and now look it is happening.

Agreed, because knows the consequences of sin. Consequences are not the same as judgments. They are results of. So, in my opinion, when God said cursed is the ground for your sake, He declared the results of their actions.

 

[mindlight]

But don't miss the sequel, in Genesis 8:21 when, after the Flood, God removes the curse from the ground:

When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, the LORD said to himself: Never again will I curse the ground because of human beings, since the desires of the human heart are evil from youth; nor will I ever again strike down every living being, as I have done.

So suddenly people could live forever again , weeds no longer grew and a perfect eco system was restored!? God had already cursed the ground and did not undo his curse. But yes I am thankful that he does not plan a sequel to this curse as the last one wiped out most of life on earth. He did not remove the curse he just will not curse it again in this way. Move on to Revelation and various plagues mentioned there for the last days make it clear that those who oppose God have not seen anything yet.

 

[Vicomte13]

So suddenly people could live forever again , weeds no longer grew and a perfect eco system was restored!? God had already cursed the ground and did not undo his curse. But yes I am thankful that he does not plan a sequel to this curse as the last one wiped out most of life on earth. He did not remove the curse he just will not curse it again in this way. Move on to Revelation and various plagues mentioned there for the last days make it clear that those who oppose God have not seen anything yet.

God cursed the ground, and the terms of the curse were specific, and had nothing to do with living forever.
In the garden, all that Adam and Eve had to do was stretch out their hand to any tree, and all of the fruit of all of them was good for them. They did not have to work, to cultivate, at all. They were gardeners - dressing the garden. They were not farmers, tilling the soil. The former is a creative, artistic activity. The latter is hard, hard work.

At creation, the animals were given the herb of the field. But when placed in the Garden, specifically there, Adam and Eve were given the fruit of all of the trees to eat. They weren't in there planting vegetables, doing work.

Then came the fall. NOW Adam and Eve would eat "the herb of the field", NOW he would have to gain his bread by the sweat of his brow. NOW, outside the Garden, they would be in a world where, instead of EVERY tree being fruit bearing and good for food, most plants were not (and are not) good for food.

And God made it harder than even we have it, for he specifically spat on the ground (the word we translate as cursed literally means "spat upon") so that it would bring forth thistles, thorns and noxious weeds when Adam sought to plant it and scratch a living out of it.

That was the curse of the soil. It is described very specifically. And THAT curse was also very specifically removed by God after the Flood. It was not as hard, after the flood, to grow food from the ground. The ground was no longer perversely opposed to man, throwing out thistles and thorns. Sure, there are still weeds, but those are randomly arising, as opposed to the hostility of cursed ground that will push out thorns and thistles when Adam tries to cultivate it.

In any case, God himself says after the Flood that he will no longer curse the land, so if I'm to take Creation, Adam, Eve, the Fall, the Flood and the Ark literally, I'm also going to take that end of the curse literally as well. I can see no other way to read that language. It's pretty clear really.