Cultural appropriation

[Holoman]

I don't see anything wrong with people dressing and having hair styles of their choice

 

[JackRT]

I don't see anything wrong with people dressing and having hair styles of their choice

In some cultures the manner of dress etc. denotes your earned status in society and is not just decoration. For example, people who wear a military uniform with badges and medals that they did not earn are rightfully scorned.

 

[RDKirk]

Speaking as a black man who's been around for over half a century...who was in high school when blacks in America first took up African styling...

The first time I heard reference to "cultural appropriation" was from a Navajo tribe that was taking a white-owned corporation to court for mass producing and marketing "Navaho jewelry."

I still think that's a correct meaning of "cultural appropriation." Making money on someone else's culture, particularly without even a head-nod toward where it came from.

So if an American musician (of any race) went to Africa and came back with some musical concepts--particularly if he claimed he thought them up himself--and proceeded to make a lot of money, that's cultural appropriation.

...Which may or may not be acceptable. Some muscians have done exactly that, such as Paul Simon back in the early 80s. Simon did, however, make it very clear that he'd picked up some "cool rythms while I was in Africa" and didn't take credit for having orginated them. In fact, Simon used actual African musicians in his following album. That makes it acceptable--that's what makes it "appreciation" more than appropriation.

Real cultural appropriation happened a lot with black music in the 40s and 50s. White musicians and producers effectively stole styles and actual lyrics and melodies from black musicians, presenting them as their own creations, and becoming millionaires, all while preventing blacks from capitalizing on their styles themselves.

But cultural appropriation can also have the positive effect of mainstreaming certain styles.

Back in the late 70s, the US Air Force regulations explicitly prohibited "cornrow and braided hairstyles" for black women--despite the fact that such styles are extremely efficient for women in adverse field conditions.

They were prohibited by the military because they were considered "extreme" and "faddish."

Then white actress Bo Derek "appropriated" cornrows for the movie "10," and they began to trickle into the mainstream. They became more and more popular in civilian life and now black women in the military are free to wear them...they're no longer considered "extreme and faddish."

 

[RDKirk]

Something else I've noted is that ethnic groups that are secure in all ways in their own cultures have less issue with "cultural appropriation" than ethnic groups that are under stress or in some way unsure of their own cultural grounding.

So with regard to the young woman wearing the Chinese quipao for a prom dress, it was Chinese-Americans who were upset--Chinese in China were mildly amused. As far as the Chinese were concerned, they merely opened up more eBay storefronts to sell them.

That happens as well with "appropriation" of African items of culture. African-Americans are far more upset than Africans.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I find it hilarious that the people I see complain about "cultural appropriation" are often the same ones who insist that a man in a dress must be called a woman.

 

[Ken-1122]

I still think that's a correct meaning of "cultural appropriation." Making money on someone else's culture, particularly without even a head-nod toward where it came from.

So if an American musician (of any race) went to Africa and came back with some musical concepts--particularly if he claimed he thought them up himself--and proceeded to make a lot of money, that's cultural appropriation.

Isn't that called "Plagiarism"?

 

[RDKirk]

Isn't that called "Plagiarism"?

No.

 

[Ken-1122]

No.

Really? Perhaps I'm missing something. How is the below different than what you described?
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/plagiarism

 

[Kalevalatar]

When the Finnish Miss World beauty pageant contestant opts to wear the indigenous Sámi dress, gákti, for the national costumes show to represent Finland, I'd say that is extemely bad taste, bad manners, inappropriate and ignorant. Finland has some 400 national costumes to choose from since just about every region has its own, in addition to nine iron age/early medieval "ancient" costumes. Unlike the Finnish national costumes, gákti is not a regional costume for all folks but a family costume in which every color, every pattern, every little detail signifies specific family ties and history, geographic location and marital status. Gákti is a personal ID card of a person's cultural inheritance. Unlike the Finnish national costumes, gákti is not something one can pick and choose because one likes the blue ones most or some patterns more.

For an outsider to ignore that and put on a fantasy "gákti" which totally ignores what gákti is as if gákti was just a frock with random colors and patterns thrown in is cultural appropriation, whereas a foreigner wearing any of the Finnish national costumes of their choosing for its prettiness is not.

Fake: this is cultural appropriation:



This is not cultural appropriation:

 

[Noxot]

no because "cultural appropriation" is nonsense created by people that want to make problems where there were none.

I highly value freedom so i'm not about to steal someones freedom because I don't want mine stolen.

 

[Liza B.]

Speaking as a black man who's been around for over half a century...who was in high school when blacks in America first took up African styling...

The first time I heard reference to "cultural appropriation" was from a Navajo tribe that was taking a white-owned corporation to court for mass producing and marketing "Navaho jewelry."

I still think that's a correct meaning of "cultural appropriation." Making money on someone else's culture, particularly without even a head-nod toward where it came from.

So if an American musician (of any race) went to Africa and came back with some musical concepts--particularly if he claimed he thought them up himself--and proceeded to make a lot of money, that's cultural appropriation.

...Which may or may not be acceptable. Some muscians have done exactly that, such as Paul Simon back in the early 80s. Simon did, however, make it very clear that he'd picked up some "cool rythms while I was in Africa" and didn't take credit for having orginated them. In fact, Simon used actual African musicians in his following album. That makes it acceptable--that's what makes it "appreciation" more than appropriation.

Real cultural appropriation happened a lot with black music in the 40s and 50s. White musicians and producers effectively stole styles and actual lyrics and melodies from black musicians, presenting them as their own creations, and becoming millionaires, all while preventing blacks from capitalizing on their styles themselves.

But cultural appropriation can also have the positive effect of mainstreaming certain styles.

Back in the late 70s, the US Air Force regulations explicitly prohibited "cornrow and braided hairstyles" for black women--despite the fact that such styles are extremely efficient for women in adverse field conditions.

They were prohibited by the military because they were considered "extreme" and "faddish."

Then white actress Bo Derek "appropriated" cornrows for the movie "10," and they began to trickle into the mainstream. They became more and more popular in civilian life and now black women in the military are free to wear them...they're no longer considered "extreme and faddish."

This is a big topic now even in education. And it's here where I draw the line, and pretty firmly. It's a lot of outrage with not much behind it, IOW. Young children, the ages I teach, have always learned best by doing. So if we are learning about Native American history, the best way to learn is to not only just read out of book (zzzz), but also to learn some songs and dances; to cook and sample food; to recite poetry; to create art. This is not appropriation and most people appreciate this--except for the young, very "socially aware" teachers. They think they're socially aware. I think they're not. They're tiptoeing on eggshells when in reality, if they make sure they're speaking respectfully of the culture, and with accuracy, then they're giving their students a rich experience they will remember.

That to me is appreciation and not appropriation.

 

[Chesterton]

...Which may or may not be acceptable. Some muscians have done exactly that, such as Paul Simon back in the early 80s. Simon did, however, make it very clear that he'd picked up some "cool rythms while I was in Africa" and didn't take credit for having orginated them. In fact, Simon used actual African musicians in his following album. That makes it acceptable--that's what makes it "appreciation" more than appropriation.

What difference does that make? Did Charley Pride need to make an official announcement that "I'm making money off music that white people invented"? Did Jackie Robinson need to do the same for baseball? It's already obvious to everyone.

Real cultural appropriation happened a lot with black music in the 40s and 50s. White musicians and producers effectively stole styles and actual lyrics and melodies from black musicians, presenting them as their own creations, and becoming millionaires, all while preventing blacks from capitalizing on their styles themselves.

No, that is just plagiarism if they steal specific music. As with Paul Simon, pretty much all the early white rhythm and blues and rock bands from America and the U.K. profusely and repeatedly cited their influence as American black music when they adopted their styles.

 

[RDKirk]

Really? Perhaps I'm missing something. How is the below different than what you described?
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/plagiarism

Because we are not talking about a particular work.

 

[RDKirk]

What difference does that make? Did Charley Pride need to make an official announcement that "I'm making money off music that white people invented"? Did Jackie Robinson need to do the same for baseball? It's already obvious to everyone.

Inasmuch as Charley Pride merely performed the music he personally grew up with, that answer is "No."

Notice that Emenem and Bruno Mars effectively evade the charge of cultural appropriation for the same reason.

No, that is just plagiarism if they steal specific music. As with Paul Simon, pretty much all the early white rhythm and blues and rock bands from America and the U.K. profusely and repeatedly cited their influence as American black music when they adopted their styles.

Into the 60s, some musicians did acknowledge those roots--at least many of the individual musicians did. The record labels and producers--nope, never did, haven't yet, never will.

 

[Chesterton]

Inasmuch as Charley Pride merely performed the music he personally grew up with, that answer is "No."

Into the 60s, some musicians did acknowledge those roots--at least many of the individual musicians did. The record labels and producers--nope, never did, haven't yet, never will.

I don't know, the idea of cultural appropriation just seems so petty and childish. "My people" did this first, so you can't do it! Why not?

 

[RDKirk]

I don't know, it just seems so petty and childish. "My people" did this first, so you can't do it! Why not?

Because those doing the cultural appropriation also actively prevented the artists from enjoying the fruit of their own creation.

 

[Chesterton]

Because those doing the cultural appropriation also actively prevented the artists from enjoying the fruit of their own creation.

The fruit of dreadlocks? Dashikis? Rock and roll? What are we talking about? It depends.

 

[RDKirk]

The fruit of dreadlocks? Dashikis? Rock and roll? What are we talking about? It depends.

This tangent was talking about early rock and roll. I've already talked about dreadlocks and such.

My point from my first post is that cultural appropriation approaches being a "real thing" when we're talking about whose making the tangible profit from someone else's creation.

 

[Chesterton]

This tangent was talking about early rock and roll. I've already talked about dreadlocks and such.

My point from my first post is that cultural appropriation approaches being a "real thing" when we're talking about whose making the tangible profit from someone else's creation.

When you say "someone else's" creation, you're not talking about a someone, you're generalizing that someone to an entire people of a similar skin color, correct?

 

[RDKirk]

When you say "someone else's" creation, you're not talking about a someone, you're generalizing that someone to an entire people of a similar skin color, correct?

No, in the case of rock and roll I'm talking about specific individuals. Some we still know, but always specific individuals.

But in other cases, yes, am talking about something that had been developed by a culture.

But I'll return again to what I defined as "bad" cultural appropriation:

I still think that's a correct meaning of "cultural appropriation." Making money on someone else's culture, particularly without even a head-nod toward where it came from.

To me, someone taking concepts from another culture and claiming to have created them himself is as immoral as "stolen valor" (pretending to have military service and military decorations that one never earned).

We can't actually do anything about either case except to call out the perpetrator for what he's doing.

But, to continue the analogy between "cultural appropriation" and "stolen valor," I have no problem with a civilian wearing military-styled clothing or military patches merely as a personal style, nor do I have a problem with a white guy wearing kente or a white woman wearing cornrows.