Cultural appropriation

[Chesterton]

Inasmuch as Charley Pride merely performed the music he personally grew up with, that answer is "No."

Notice that Emenem and Bruno Mars effectively evade the charge of cultural appropriation for the same reason.

Why does it matter whether you "personally grew up with it"? Can't you simply like something you didn't grow up with?

 

[RDKirk]

Why does it matter whether you "personally grew up with it"? Can't you simply like something you didn't grow up with?

You didn't read my original post, did you?

 

[Chesterton]

You didn't read my original post, did you?

If you mean post #23, yes I did. But I'm confused. According you you, it seems it has to do with whether you make money or not. Say I have no cultural ties to Germany or Poland, and I didn't grow up around polka music. Then say, at age 40 I discover polka music and really like it. So I start a polka band and play in a local bar where I don't make any money, that's okay. But if I record a polka song and have a big money-making hit, then it's cultural appropriation?

 

[ananda]

A white man from USA is wearing dreadlocks and a Dashiki. Is this an example of cultural appropriation?
A Black man from the USA is wearing dreadlocks and a Dashiki. Is this an example of cultural appropriation?
Why or why not?

No, because the "white man" could be self-identifying as a black woman, and the "black man" could be self-identifying as a West African Indian transgender.

 

[Radagast]

My point from my first post is that cultural appropriation approaches being a "real thing" when we're talking about whose making the tangible profit from someone else's creation.

If somebody actually does that, it's breach of copyright.

But, even though I'm white, I don't get to complain about (for example) black people playing Beethoven, because (a) Beethoven's music is no longer under copyright; (b) my having the same skin colour as Beethoven doesn't let me take credit for his music; and (c) I don't get to tell other people what music to play.

 

[Ken-1122]

Because we are not talking about a particular work.

Yes we are! Your scenario was about an American musician going to Africa, getting ideas from Africa; and claiming the ideas as his own. Now how is that different from this dictionary definition of Plagiarism that I provided below?

Plagiarism: the practice of using or copying someone else's idea or work and pretending that you thought of it or created it.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, because the "white man" could be self-identifying as a black woman, and the "black man" could be self-identifying as a West African Indian transgender.

How about if they identify as who they are?

 

[ananda]

How about if they identify as who they are?

Then yes, they stole their dreadlocks from the Indians, and the dashikis from the Ottomans!

 

[RDKirk]

If somebody actually does that, it's breach of copyright.

Only if the work had been rendered in a fixed form--i.e., recorded or written down. That was often not the case for those early black blues and rock artists.

But, even though I'm white, I don't get to complain about (for example) black people playing Beethoven, because (a) Beethoven's music is no longer under copyright; (b) my having the same skin colour as Beethoven doesn't let me take credit for his music; and (c) I don't get to tell other people what music to play.

And which black people have claimed to have created anything done by Beethoven?

Did you actually read my original post?

 

[RDKirk]

Yes we are! Your scenario was about an American musician going to Africa, getting ideas from Africa; and claiming the ideas as his own. Now how is that different from this dictionary definition of Plagiarism that I provided below?

Plagiarism: the practice of using or copying someone else's idea or work and pretending that you thought of it or created it.

Check the law for what "a work" actually means.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes we are! Your scenario was about an American musician going to Africa, getting ideas from Africa; and claiming the ideas as his own. Now how is that different from this dictionary definition of Plagiarism that I provided below?

Plagiarism: the practice of using or copying someone else's idea or work and pretending that you thought of it or created it.

No, that's not a "work" as defined by copyright law (plagiarism is not defined by law, only by academic custom).

Nor do I think getting such generalized "ideas" is even a "work" as defined by academic custom.

For instance, if a author today writes a story about humaniform robots, has he committed plagiarism? Nobody would seriously say so. Star Trek has gone so far as to have an android with a "positronic" brain--a word that was uniquely coined by Issac Asimov for his fictional robots...is Star Trek thus guilty of plagiarism?

 

[Radagast]

And which black people have claimed to have created anything done by Beethoven?

I was using an analogy.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, that's not a "work" as defined by copyright law (plagiarism is not defined by law, only by academic custom).

Nor do I think getting such generalized "ideas" is even a "work" as defined by academic custom.

For instance, if a author today writes a story about humaniform robots, has he committed plagiarism?

If he got the story from somebody else and claimed it as his own; YES!

Check the law for what "a work" actually means.

How about if you check the law, and get back with me on that

 

[RDKirk]

If he got the story from somebody else and claimed it as his own; YES!

Who said anything about "story?" I didn't. You seem to be setting up a strawman.

How about if you check the law, and get back with me on that

Here you go:
https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf

What Are the Rights of a Copyright Owner?

Copyright provides the owner of copyright with the exclusive right to • Reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords2 • Prepare derivative works based upon the work • Distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership or by rental, lease, or lending • Perform the work publicly if it is a literary, musical, dramatic, or choreographic work; a pantomime; or a motion picture or other audiovisual work • Display the work publicly if it is a literary, musical, dramatic, or choreographic work; a pantomime; or a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work. This right also applies to the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work. • Perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission if the work is a sound recording Copyright also provides the owner of copyright the right to authorize others to exercise these exclusive rights, subject to certain statutory limitations.

What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

Copyright does not protect • Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, or discoveries • Works that are not fixed in a tangible form (such as a choreographic work that has not been notated or recorded or an improvisational speech that has not been written down) • Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans • Familiar symbols or designs • Mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring • Mere listings of ingredients or contents

There are no laws on plagiarism per se.

 

[RDKirk]

I was using an analogy.

The analogy is not valid.

You're just making up stuff to argue against--you're not arguing anything I've said. That's called a "strawman argument." That's why I pointed out earlier that you hadn't actually read my post.

 

[Ken-1122]

Who said anything about "story?" I didn't. You seem to be setting up a strawman.

Actually you did. Your exact response was:

For instance, if a author today writes a story about humaniform robots, has he committed plagiarism?

Here you go:
https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf



There are no laws on plagiarism per se.

We are not discussing laws, we're discussing the difference between cultural appropriation vs plagiarism

 

[RDKirk]

Actually you did. Your exact response was:

For instance, if a author today writes a story about humaniform robots, has he committed plagiarism?

The answer to that question is, "No." There are hundreds of stories from hundreds of writers about humaniform robots. That "humaniform robot" is only an idea, not a story.

By imposing "If he got the story from someone else" you're merely setting up a strawman.

We are not discussing laws, we're discussing the difference between cultural appropriation vs plagiarism

Plagiarism still involves actually copying specific work, not merely using an idea or--when we're talking about cultural appropriation--a style or motif.

For instance, three different persons may have an idea for a place where different people come together that results in various kinds of adventures, but "Valarian-City of a Thousand Planets," "Babylon 5," "Star Trek: Deep Space 9," and "Gunsmoke" are not examples of plagiarism.

And, frankly, as I said before plagiarism is only a rule of academic tradition. It carries no weight anywhere else but academia.

 

[Ken-1122]

The answer to that question is, "No." There are hundreds of stories from hundreds of writers about humaniform robots. That "humaniform robot" is only an idea, not a story.

By imposing "If he got the story from someone else" you're merely setting up a strawman.



Plagiarism still involves actually copying specific work, not merely using an idea or--when we're talking about cultural appropriation--a style or motif.

For instance, three different persons may have an idea for a place where different people come together that results in various kinds of adventures, but "Valarian-City of a Thousand Planets," "Babylon 5," "Star Trek: Deep Space 9," and "Gunsmoke" are not examples of plagiarism.

And, frankly, as I said before plagiarism is only a rule of academic tradition. It carries no weight anywhere else but academia.

I agree to create your own story around a concept created by someone else isn’t plagiarism. So if we go back to the original point; a musician going to a foreign land with a different culture, creating his own work, even though this work may have been inspired by this new culture he experienced; how is that bad? Because culture appropriation is always considered bad.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree to create your own story around a concept created by someone else isn’t plagiarism. So if we go back to the original point; a musician going to a foreign land with a different culture, creating his own work, even though this work may have been inspired by this new culture he experienced; how is that bad? Because culture appropriation is always considered bad.

You still haven't read my original post.

I'll debate my own points; I'm not going to bother trying to debate a strawman.

This is how Paul Simon did it. Nothing at all wrong with this:

 

[Ken-1122]

You still haven't read my original post.

I'll debate my own points; I'm not going to bother trying to debate a strawman.

This is how Paul Simon did it. Nothing at all wrong with this:

How is what I said different than your original post?