Crusades

[Muslim]

But were the Christians who were living in those lands of Caucasian descent or Semitic? If Caucasian, then perhaps the pope was making an ethnic slur. If they were Semitic, however, then it wouldn't make much sense to degrade only the Turk and Arab Semites to the exclusion of the Christian Semites. That's why I figured the term "race" referred to the Muslim conquerors. Of course, racism makes little sense anyway. Regarding the popular depiction of Jesus, you'll get no argument from me there. Figure it this way, if Jesus really were a blond haired, blue eyed hippie dude, Judas wouldn't have had to identify Him by kissing Him. He could have told the soldiers that Jesus was the "white boy" in the crowd.

He was attacking both Islam and non-whites as you can see in this statement:

O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!

He claims Muslims worship demons and also called them a "base race". So if he is calling semetic people a base race, then he was also being racist towards semetic Christians as well. And as we know when the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem they indiscriminately killed semetic Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

 

[The Midge]

O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!

Alternatively it could be a back handed insult at his audience who considered themselves as superior for being Christian Europoeans (rember that Europe was until recently a mix of Celts, Saxons, Angles, Romans, Steppe People etc etc.) "You have had your bums wipped, you're not superior! Or you are faithless Christians".

FWIW I don't think God wants us tto conquer the promised land, or any other land with guns and bulletes. It is too easy to get those more base motives mixed up with the desire to serve God and wind up serving dark forces.

 

[Lifesaver]

"O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!"

was christianity only a white person's religion at that time?

The Pope was obviously talking about the Islamic religion, and not any race, since many Christians were Middle Easterners as well, not to mention blacks, as the whole North of Africa used to be Christian.

 

[ServantofTheOne]

The Pope was obviously talking about the Islamic religion, and not any race, since many Christians were Middle Easterners as well, not to mention blacks, as the whole North of Africa used to be Christian.

year 1095CE majority of north africa were already muslim.

from the context of that quote he was talking about the race of muslims and that it is supposedly inferior to the european race.

any whichway you look at it, it was an overtly rascist statement and it is surprising that this is coming from the head of a religious organization that claims to be adhereing to the teaching of Jesus(pbuh), these very same people who were the custodians of christian scripture for centuries.

 

[Lifesaver]

year 1095CE majority of north africa were already muslim.

from the context of that quote he was talking about the race of muslims and that it is supposedly inferior to the european race.

any whichway you look at it, it was an overtly rascist statement and it is surprising that this is coming from the head of a religious organization that claims to be adhereing to the teaching of Jesus(pbuh), these very same people who were the custodians of christian scripture for centuries.

"Muslim race" cannot be a racial description. Your claim is absurd.

A racist individual says "this race is biologically inferior; malice is inscribed in their blood". If someone says "this race is evil because they worship idols", they cannot mean a biological race, but a religion.

There was absolutely nothing racist in it, as the veneration of many saints of all races throughout history proves.

Please stop displaying dishonesty like this. You read the word "race" and concludes he meant the biological characteristics they had, when in fact the Pope stresses that it is their religion, Islam, which is evil, as the history of the world has proved time and time again.

 

[ServantofTheOne]

"O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!"

what if you said of the Jews then: "o what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships money, should control so much wealth and power over a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!"

wouldn't this be a rascist comment?
if so then you have double standards.

 

[Lifesaver]

"O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!"

what if you said of the Jews then: "o what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships money, should control so much wealth and power over a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!"

wouldn't this be a rascist comment?
if so then you have double standards.

No, it is not racist, as it speaks against a religion, and not against men with given biological characteristics. It does not speak about the superiority of a race, or of a nation, above others. It speaks about the superiority of a religion, which comprises people of all nations and races, over another one.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

S Welch,

Thanks for the links. Israel in Prophcey website is kinda wacko, but I can use their citations to track down what I'm lookin for.

 

[ravenscape]

What Pope Urban II meant by the word "race" and what the word "race" means today are very different. There are numerous examples where individuals have misused religions to boster their bigotry and oppression of other races. Christianity has been misused in this way, but so have many, many other religions.

 

[HouseApe]

What Pope Urban II meant by the word "race" and what the word "race" means today are very different. There are numerous examples where individuals have misused religions to boster their bigotry and oppression of other races. Christianity has been misused in this way, but so have many, many other religions.

My grandmother, 84 yo now, and a devout member of the Dutch Reformed Church, once told me that white people shouldn't interact with non-whites (and she included semites and latinos as non-whites) because they were the "sons of Ham" and we were the "sons of Shem". My wife is Cuban. When we were dating, she told me that it was OK to fool around with that "colored girl" but I shouldn't get too close emotionally. She obviously isn't very happy with my choices.

 

[ravenscape]

My, my what a small world! My mother gave me a very similar speech when I was a teen. Her biggest concern appparently was "Think of your children!" Fortunately, "the children" have never been an issue since I don't have any. But that's a problem, too. I didn't "multiply".

 

[Lifesaver]

What Pope Urban II meant by the word "race" and what the word "race" means today are very different. There are numerous examples where individuals have misused religions to boster their bigotry and oppression of other races. Christianity has been misused in this way, but so have many, many other religions.

I don't know whether or not you have meant what is the case; but the case is that the Pope's words did not mean anything related to biological characteristics of the men involved; from its beginning Christianity had been a religion of people from many races (modern biological sense) and not once has the Church considered men of other skin colour or physical traits to be inferior to other ones.

 

[ravenscape]

Sorry LifeSaver, that was my point. Pope Urban II did not use the term "race" in a biological sense. Neither race nor ethnicity were homogeneous. The word "race" was equivalent to religion in this context.

 

[Muslim]

No, it is not racist, as it speaks against a religion, and not against men with given biological characteristics. It does not speak about the superiority of a race, or of a nation, above others. It speaks about the superiority of a religion, which comprises people of all nations and races, over another one.

O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!

He is speaking about both Islam and Semetic people specifically because if you'll notice he calls them a "base race" which "worships demons". So by saying they worship demons he is attacking Islam and by calling them a base race he is being racist towards non-Europeans or semetics in general because the people who were being referred to were the semetic Muslims who had control over the holy land.

 

[Muslim]

I don't know whether or not you have meant what is the case; but the case is that the Pope's words did not mean anything related to biological characteristics of the men involved; from its beginning Christianity had been a religion of people from many races (modern biological sense) and not once has the Church considered men of other skin colour or physical traits to be inferior to other ones.

Maybe you can argue that racism was not in Church doctrine but you cannot honestly believe that most of the members of the catholic church at that time weren't racist, especially towards non-Europeans.

 

[The Midge]

Is it out of place to mention Nation of Islam at this point?

If Islam is a race then no white westerners could be muslims, which is a nonsense. meaning of words change with their context. We must understand what Medievil Popes meant by race and even 'demon' worship, two subjects upon which we have very different views today.

 

[Muslim]

Is it out of place to mention Nation of Islam at this point?

Nation of Islam are not true Muslims. They disobey many commandments within Islam and follow a false prophet. They are more of a political group than a religious group as most of their attention is focused on gaining more rights for african americans in the United States.

If Islam is a race then no white westerners could be muslims, which is a nonsense. meaning of words change with their context. We must understand what Medievil Popes meant by race and even 'demon' worship, two subjects upon which we have very different views today.

Yes, the terms could have had a different meaning, however within the context of his speech is would make sense for him to be attempting to attack both Islam and non-Europeans and while doing so attempt to increase the stature of White Christians.

 

[Lifesaver]

He is speaking about both Islam and Semetic people specifically because if you'll notice he calls them a "base race" which "worships demons". So by saying they worship demons he is attacking Islam and by calling them a base race he is being racist towards non-Europeans or semetics in general because the people who were being referred to were the semetic Muslims who had control over the holy land.

I can scarcely believe you actually buy into that interpretation. But I guess it is useless to keep on arguing the point; it is very obvious he meant Muslims, and not any biological race.

And for you and everyone else who would like to have a better knowledge of the Crusades, this article may be a good place to start. Surely, it is no history book (though the author, a serious scholar, has written these as well), but even so better and more reliable than our posts.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/118/52.0.html

 

[humblemuslim]

I can scarcely believe you actually buy into that interpretation. But I guess it is useless to keep on arguing the point; it is very obvious he meant Muslims, and not any biological race.

I find it alittle strange the word "Base" is used in description of the "Race" which is being referred to (Biological or otherwise). Is this word being used to emphasize the inferiority of the specified "Race"? Or is it indicating something else?

O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!

I also find the ignorance of this comment amusing by itself. "Worhsips demons". If the given individual had even an ounce of understanding regarding what he speaks of he would realize that Islam worships only One Almighty God (And if he would like to refer to God as a Demon, in singular, I guess that would be his personal wish). If muslims only worship One Being the statement regarding the worship of several makes this nonsensical with regard to the religion he is referring to.

Peace

 

[nicodemus]

No. At the time, there were Christians living in Asia, Africa, and Palestine. In fact, the Europeans killed the Christians living in the middle east when they came to conquer Jerusalem. It's possible that European Christians were racists, but they hardly represent all of Christendom.

Yup. Orthodox Christians (primarily of Greek and Arabic descent) were some of the Crusade's biggest victims. I believe it was the fourth crusade that sacked Constantinople.