crossover with wof

[now faith]

Mike , I did not know what WOF was for a long time.
I just thought the preachers I liked were Spirit filled, it was when I joined the forum that I noticed a conflict.

I am still not quite sure what the debate is about, other than some money preachers claiming Word of Faith.
It would help me if someone would provide some bullet points on the differences.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Is God a respecter of persons?"

"Persons" refers to the "Character we play", or the "Religious mask that we wear". He Doesn't respect THAT, but He DOES deal with us independently according to our personal needs, weaknesses, and strengths, so in THAT respect he DOES take our REAL "Person" into account when He deals with us.

"Has he changed?"

Nope, HE doesn't change - although He DOES periodically alter his specific focus as He continues to restore the Visible Church.

"What did Christ say about asking God for anything?"

Ask in Faith - which is IMPOSSIBLE TO DO unless you Know the will of God in the situation. We can ALWAYS "Ask in hope", and God will HEAR every prayer, and answer them according to HIS WILL which wil invariably be THE BEST WAY taking into consideration that God has HIS eye on eternity, not temporal issues.

"What are the conditions Christ taught on prayer?"

IF you can believe in your Heart - NOTHING DOUBTING - (i.e. "Have Faith in God") - you've GOT what you say.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And if you notice in the case of HEALINGS in the Bible, Folks DIDN'T PRAY FOR HEALING - the SPOKE IT in the knowledge that it WOULD HAPPEN when they did.

How do you suppose they KNEW that???

 

[now faith]

"Is God a respecter of persons?"

"Persons" refers to the "Character we play", or the "Religious mask that we wear". He Doesn't respect THAT, but He DOES deal with us independently according to our personal needs, weaknesses, and strengths, so in THAT respect he DOES take our REAL "Person" into account when He deals with us.

"Has he changed?"

Nope, HE doesn't change - although He DOES periodically alter his specific focus as He continues to restore the Visible Church.

"What did Christ say about asking God for anything?"

Ask in Faith - which is IMPOSSIBLE TO DO unless you Know the will of God in the situation. We can ALWAYS "Ask in hope", and God will HEAR every prayer, and answer them according to HIS WILL which wil invariably be THE BEST WAY taking into consideration that God has HIS eye on eternity, not temporal issues.

"What are the conditions Christ taught on prayer?"

IF you can believe in your Heart - NOTHING DOUBTING - (i.e. "Have Faith in God") - you've GOT what you say.

Asking in faith, may be impossible for some.
But others know the will of God , by the Word of God
The Bible simply does not support your opinion in the second paragraph, how can any one know what a omnipresent God has his eye on, only the Word Christ Jesus knows.
God healed yesterday, and heals today , healing is for today!
Your last statement is in contradiction with your other statements.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Asking in faith, may be impossible for some."

True - Asking in "Faith" is IMPOSSIBLE for anybody who doesn't have specific faith for the thing asked for.

"But others know the will of God , by the Word of God"

True - it's called the "Hearing of Faith" Gal 3:2. What's written in the Word is all well and good, but it doesn't necessarily apply to a given situation just because we want it to. If you don't KNOW the outcome of a petition, then you ARE NOT moving in Biblical Faith. Simple as that.

"The Bible simply does not support your opinion in the second paragraph, how can any one know what a omnipresent God has his eye on, only the Word Christ Jesus knows."

NOT True - the Bible indicates that God in history has employed a variety of methodologies, and has placed difeerent emphases at different times in history.

"God healed yesterday, and heals today , healing is for today!"

TRUE - God heals today just as He always has. I've watched Him do it.

"Your last statement is in contradiction with your other statements."

Absolutely FALSE -

It may be inconsistent with what your personal paradigm/interpretation demands, but There is NO inconsistency with anything I stated.

 

[now faith]

"Asking in faith, may be impossible for some."

True - Asking in "Faith" is IMPOSSIBLE for anybody who doesn't have specific faith for the thing asked for.

"But others know the will of God , by the Word of God"

True - it's called the "Hearing of Faith" Gal 3:2. What's written in the Word is all well and good, but it doesn't necessarily apply to a given situation just because we want it to. If you don't KNOW the outcome of a petition, then you ARE NOT moving in Biblical Faith. Simple as that.

"The Bible simply does not support your opinion in the second paragraph, how can any one know what a omnipresent God has his eye on, only the Word Christ Jesus knows."

NOT True - the Bible indicates that God in history has employed a variety of methodologies, and has placed difeerent emphases at different times in history.

"God healed yesterday, and heals today , healing is for today!"

TRUE - God heals today just as He always has. I've watched Him do it.

"Your last statement is in contradiction with your other statements."

Absolutely FALSE -

It may be inconsistent with what your personal paradigm/interpretation demands, but There is NO inconsistency with anything I stated.

When we ask amiss, we know it in our heart, we will not have faith to ask for things out of the will of God.
As Jesus said my sheep hear my voice.,The Holy Spirit guides our lives in the will of God. But God will give us our needs wants and desires of our heart, if we ask in faith, and often times when we don't ask at all.

If you have ever received something from God that was in the back of your mind, and you just wonder in his goodness, a blessing that you did not ask for .
Bob I was wrong on thinking your post was saying healing is not for today, that was my impression. Your not as old as you think, I live in a retirement community.
We have 80 year olds that pump iron in the gym, and 90 year olds playing golf.
God bless.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"We have 80 year olds that pump iron in the gym,"

I just got together with one of my cousins in Massachusetts who's 81, and doesn't look a day over 60, and travels all over the place (likes to take cruises).

I have to be more conservative of my energy, and find it a GOOD thing to have the nitro bottle handy when I stretch the "Rubber band" too tight. Still working full time, though -

 

[now faith]

"We have 80 year olds that pump iron in the gym,"

I just got together with one of my cousins in Massachusetts who's 81, and doesn't look a day over 60, and travels all over the place (likes to take cruises).

I have to be more conservative of my energy, and find it a GOOD thing to have the nitro bottle handy when I stretch the "Rubber band" too tight. Still working full time, though -

Brother I know a lot about that nitro bottle, I had to grab it out of my dads pocket many times.
It was the only thing between life and death.
You know something though , he was a Freewill Baptist preacher, he would get anointed ,and
the preaching would hit and hit hard. Never did he need it while preaching.
It was only out of Church he would grab his chest turn purple, if my mom or brothers or myself did not get that little pill under his tongue he would have died.
You know one day we won't ever need them again , not even aspirin.

 

[Qnts2]

"As a born again spirit filled Christian who has resently been visiting a WOF congregation which as of yet hasn't blurred the line of biblic WOF over to metaphysics, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of biblical Charismatic, biblical WOF, and biblical Pentecostals."

Disclaimer: My "Perspective" is, in fact MY PERSPECTIVE as a 70 year old free-range Charismatic, theologically eclectic (but Calvinist slanted - Hey!! I started out Baptist back in '62), and non-denominational, but a member and in the leadership Group of an Assembly of God Church in Desoto, TX. I say what I mean to say, and sign my name to it.

You don't really have to worry all that much about "OP context" since on Forums, threads go where they want, and moderators move 'em as they see fit.

Let me preface everything by stating that I see the "Visible Church" (like good 'ol First Baptist down on the corner) as a Work in progress.

My "Historical view" is that almost immediately after the Apostolic period, the "Visible Church" started to descend into error, and beauracracy, finally reaching a "low point" in the Middle ages when the "Orthodox Church" was essentially LOST on Superstition, Political Corruption, and Gross ignorance.

And then God began the rebuilding process with the "Reformation", and over the last 600 years has been RE-Building the Visible church, line upon Line, and precept upon precept, adding truths which were ALWAYS there, but long forgotten. "The Just shall live by FAITH" wasn't a "NEW REVELATION" - but it WAS one that hadn't been realized - until Luther "Saw it" in the Spirit, and got the ball rolling.

I'll use the term "Full Gospel" to cover your three Groups - "Full Gospel" in the sense that the Orthodox Church up until the late 19th century was essentially "Cessationist" in nature, and taught that all the "Neat Stuff" in the Bible - miracles, healings, tongues, etc. had been withdrawn, generally predicated on the "Completion of the Biblical Canon" which supposedly rendered them "Obsolete". "Full Gospel" simply means that WE believe that the Gifts are AS accessible TODAY as they were in 40 A.D.

The the mid-late 19th century, the Lord RE-Introduced the concept of a "Filling with the Holy Spirit" as an "Event" subsequent to salvation (which IS the point at which a person is "Infilled" by the Spirit, and made alive Spiritually).

And it was noted Biblically that the "Manifestation of tongues" was recorded as accompanying the the people being "Filled with the spirit" in several instances. and shortly after that tongues were experienced in a Bible School in Topeka, KS in 1900. shortly after that around 1906 William Seymore Pastored a huge revival at Azuza Street in L.A. which spawned many of the Pentecostal denominations today, the LARGEST 2 being the Assemblies of God (mostly white), and the Church of God in Christ (mostly Black). Their "Doctrines" are generally O.K., but like any denominational groups, there's "Truth" and there's "Error".

The Pentecostals, however, began to "Atrophy" into formalism by the 1950s, and a NEW Revival (The Charismatic Outpouring) rolled through in 1966 which effected primarily the "Liberal", Historic denominations and the Catholics - Thousands of whom were saved and Filled with the Holy Spirit, and for a brief time in the '70s, we were "just Christians" together - experiencing the presence of the Holy Spirit and largely ignoring our "Denominational differences" and "Defining doctrines" which, at the time, seemed, and WERE - simply unimportant.

In the late '70s the revival ended, and folks that were involved in it tended to go back into their old churches, but MANY migrated to the Pentecostal denominations, which really had little to do with the Charismatic movement, and opposed it along with many other in the "Orthodox" churches. The Charismatics DIDN'T form denominational groups for the most part - "Calvary Chapel" being one of the larger ones.

SO Today there's not really that much difference between "Charismatics", and Mainline Pentecostals.

WoF is a development from E.W. Kenyon in the early 20 century, and popularized by Kenneth Hagan Sr. WHo was Assembly of God in the beginning. HE wasn't "Prosperity" oriented, and definitly NOT Meta-physical. He believed (as I do) that FAITH comes through "Hearing the Word" - in the sense that God will make His word "REAL" to you (in the way that He made "The just will live by faith" REAL to Luther), and when HE DOES, then you can ACCURATELY proclaim the Word/Promise/Provision - as being REAL - even though it's not "there yet".

"Popular WoF teachers" started to "Adjust that concept" to where you're supposed to "CLAIM" what you read in the Bible as "YOURS" intellectually without any "Word from God to YOU" about it. and that's where we get into the methodology of "Name it and claim it" prosperity teaching that essentially argues the "Gain IS Godliness" in spite of the Bible saying otherwise.

We're to SEEK FIRST the "Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness" - and THEN out of that relational position with God, "All these things" will be added.

I'm "Calvinist leaning", in the sense that I am CONVINCED that all things start with GOD who leads and inspires, burdens us with ministries, and enables us to have Faith, and Chastises/Scourges/corrects us when we get "off track".

I'm dying of Coronary artery disease (13 heart attacks, two open hearts, and 16 stents since 1992), and I KNOW that God heals (I've seen Him DO IT). But I DON'T KNOW that God intends to heal ME - so I have nothing to base a claim of healing on. And in a REAL way, that doesn't matter. I have peace in Him about my status, and complete confidence that He'll BE with me whatever the future holds. And If I'm NEVER healed physically until death, God still heals, and blesses, and makes prosperous, and gives the Power to "carry on".

The MAJOR ISSUE in the "Visible church", I think, is that the majority of folks have never read the Bible, don't know what's IN it, and have no Biblical foundation to "JUDGE" truth and error when it comes at 'em. Folks read books ABOUT the Word, but don't read the Word itself. That SHOULD be the FIRST thing.

Simple as that.

Very good summary.

Just my own bit:

When I became familiar with the Charismatic church, one difference between Pentacostals like Assembly of God, and the Charismatic church was the belief that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was evidenced by the speaking in tongues. Early Charismatic churches disagreed with this and believed that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was not always accompanied by speaking in tongues, but could be evidenced by other gifts such as prophesy. The Charismatic church was heavy into prophesy and the gift of prophesy came more to the forefront.

I agree with you that Kenyon started the WOF movement. One of the teachings of Kenyon was that God spoke things into existence using faith and the available power. Christians are also about to use faith and the existing power to speak thinks into existence. Kenyon proposed that this ability made people 'little gods'. While I agree that Hagin Sr did not go to the metaphysical as much as Kenyon, I would disagree that he entirely avoided it. A friend gave me a Kenyon tape and I was very surprised to find him saying to have faith in faith. I think that is esentially the common error of WOF, to have faith in faith.

 

[now faith]

Very good summary.

Just my own bit:

When I became familiar with the Charismatic church, one difference between Pentacostals like Assembly of God, and the Charismatic church was the belief that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was evidenced by the speaking in tongues. Early Charismatic churches disagreed with this and believed that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was not always accompanied by speaking in tongues, but could be evidenced by other gifts such as prophesy. The Charismatic church was heavy into prophesy and the gift of prophesy came more to the forefront.

I agree with you that Kenyon started the WOF movement. One of the teachings of Kenyon was that God spoke things into existence using faith and the available power. Christians are also about to use faith and the existing power to speak thinks into existence. Kenyon proposed that this ability made people 'little gods'. While I agree that Hagin Sr did not go to the metaphysical as much as Kenyon, I would disagree that he entirely avoided it. A friend gave me a Kenyon tape and I was very surprised to find him saying to have faith in faith. I think that is esentially the common error of WOF, to have faith in faith.

I enjoy Hagin seniors teaching,I believe it is solid.
There are mistakes made on how prosperity is taught today,and how it is judged.
Poverty is not Gods will,nor is starving and strife.
You cannot help anyone if you can't help your self,you can worship the act of being humble,or you can worship gain is Godly both are wrong.
Having more than enough is not a sin,the same as you can't out give God.
It's all in the heart of the believer and judged in the eyes of God.
Name it and claim it is misconstrued by many as name your Rolex.
Name your need want desire,if it is spiritual physical or financial and claim Gods promise in Gods Word. Gods words haven't changed,but we have changed Gods word.
Can I Have a Rolex sure, do I want or need or desire one no,but I could give one away.

 

[now faith]

"As a born again spirit filled Christian who has resently been visiting a WOF congregation which as of yet hasn't blurred the line of biblic WOF over to metaphysics, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of biblical Charismatic, biblical WOF, and biblical Pentecostals."

Disclaimer: My "Perspective" is, in fact MY PERSPECTIVE as a 70 year old free-range Charismatic, theologically eclectic (but Calvinist slanted - Hey!! I started out Baptist back in '62), and non-denominational, but a member and in the leadership Group of an Assembly of God Church in Desoto, TX. I say what I mean to say, and sign my name to it.

You don't really have to worry all that much about "OP context" since on Forums, threads go where they want, and moderators move 'em as they see fit.

Let me preface everything by stating that I see the "Visible Church" (like good 'ol First Baptist down on the corner) as a Work in progress.

My "Historical view" is that almost immediately after the Apostolic period, the "Visible Church" started to descend into error, and beauracracy, finally reaching a "low point" in the Middle ages when the "Orthodox Church" was essentially LOST on Superstition, Political Corruption, and Gross ignorance.

And then God began the rebuilding process with the "Reformation", and over the last 600 years has been RE-Building the Visible church, line upon Line, and precept upon precept, adding truths which were ALWAYS there, but long forgotten. "The Just shall live by FAITH" wasn't a "NEW REVELATION" - but it WAS one that hadn't been realized - until Luther "Saw it" in the Spirit, and got the ball rolling.

I'll use the term "Full Gospel" to cover your three Groups - "Full Gospel" in the sense that the Orthodox Church up until the late 19th century was essentially "Cessationist" in nature, and taught that all the "Neat Stuff" in the Bible - miracles, healings, tongues, etc. had been withdrawn, generally predicated on the "Completion of the Biblical Canon" which supposedly rendered them "Obsolete". "Full Gospel" simply means that WE believe that the Gifts are AS accessible TODAY as they were in 40 A.D.

The the mid-late 19th century, the Lord RE-Introduced the concept of a "Filling with the Holy Spirit" as an "Event" subsequent to salvation (which IS the point at which a person is "Infilled" by the Spirit, and made alive Spiritually).

And it was noted Biblically that the "Manifestation of tongues" was recorded as accompanying the the people being "Filled with the spirit" in several instances. and shortly after that tongues were experienced in a Bible School in Topeka, KS in 1900. shortly after that around 1906 William Seymore Pastored a huge revival at Azuza Street in L.A. which spawned many of the Pentecostal denominations today, the LARGEST 2 being the Assemblies of God (mostly white), and the Church of God in Christ (mostly Black). Their "Doctrines" are generally O.K., but like any denominational groups, there's "Truth" and there's "Error".

The Pentecostals, however, began to "Atrophy" into formalism by the 1950s, and a NEW Revival (The Charismatic Outpouring) rolled through in 1966 which effected primarily the "Liberal", Historic denominations and the Catholics - Thousands of whom were saved and Filled with the Holy Spirit, and for a brief time in the '70s, we were "just Christians" together - experiencing the presence of the Holy Spirit and largely ignoring our "Denominational differences" and "Defining doctrines" which, at the time, seemed, and WERE - simply unimportant.

In the late '70s the revival ended, and folks that were involved in it tended to go back into their old churches, but MANY migrated to the Pentecostal denominations, which really had little to do with the Charismatic movement, and opposed it along with many other in the "Orthodox" churches. The Charismatics DIDN'T form denominational groups for the most part - "Calvary Chapel" being one of the larger ones.

SO Today there's not really that much difference between "Charismatics", and Mainline Pentecostals.

WoF is a development from E.W. Kenyon in the early 20 century, and popularized by Kenneth Hagan Sr. WHo was Assembly of God in the beginning. HE wasn't "Prosperity" oriented, and definitly NOT Meta-physical. He believed (as I do) that FAITH comes through "Hearing the Word" - in the sense that God will make His word "REAL" to you (in the way that He made "The just will live by faith" REAL to Luther), and when HE DOES, then you can ACCURATELY proclaim the Word/Promise/Provision - as being REAL - even though it's not "there yet".

"Popular WoF teachers" started to "Adjust that concept" to where you're supposed to "CLAIM" what you read in the Bible as "YOURS" intellectually without any "Word from God to YOU" about it. and that's where we get into the methodology of "Name it and claim it" prosperity teaching that essentially argues the "Gain IS Godliness" in spite of the Bible saying otherwise.

We're to SEEK FIRST the "Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness" - and THEN out of that relational position with God, "All these things" will be added.

I'm "Calvinist leaning", in the sense that I am CONVINCED that all things start with GOD who leads and inspires, burdens us with ministries, and enables us to have Faith, and Chastises/Scourges/corrects us when we get "off track".

I'm dying of Coronary artery disease (13 heart attacks, two open hearts, and 16 stents since 1992), and I KNOW that God heals (I've seen Him DO IT). But I DON'T KNOW that God intends to heal ME - so I have nothing to base a claim of healing on. And in a REAL way, that doesn't matter. I have peace in Him about my status, and complete confidence that He'll BE with me whatever the future holds. And If I'm NEVER healed physically until death, God still heals, and blesses, and makes prosperous, and gives the Power to "carry on".

The MAJOR ISSUE in the "Visible church", I think, is that the majority of folks have never read the Bible, don't know what's IN it, and have no Biblical foundation to "JUDGE" truth and error when it comes at 'em. Folks read books ABOUT the Word, but don't read the Word itself. That SHOULD be the FIRST thing.

Simple as that.

Bob I enjoyed your summary, we had our gifts removed and taught against right out of the gate,
Satan does not enjoy the truth of believers authority,he will destroy any faith or any thing that gives God glory.
Racism was a issue for Seymore,many spoke against the Movement at that time including Pentecostal churches .
Of course old Guy we disagree on maybe two things.
But who cares! We both might disagree with our own pastors on something.
Doesn't keep us from God,only helps us grow.
I think Hagan started out Baptist,then Church of God,you and he have a lot in common. Come on over and join our fourm

 

[hopeinGod]

Throughout my childhood, I attended numerous churches -- Lutheran, Salvation Army, Methodist, Baptist. I went forward to the altar for prayer at an early age, and not at any time was I accompanied by either of my parents. They weren't church goers.

But it wasn't until 1972, while standing in the chow line aboard a naval destroyer that I "heard" the gospel. It was a profound revelation. Through a friendly discussion with a fellow shipmate, I made a choice, and while lying in my bunk that night, motivated by that "breathed upon" word to me, I asked for forgiveness. The transformation within me was immediate.

However, the immediacy of my changed quickened spirit was not the precedent that was to set the course of my Christian walk. For nothing after that day came to me with equal speed. Oh, being filled with the Spirit was fairly fast, but nothing in comparison to being saved.

This is why spiritual formulas, I believe, were so easily adopted by me. Gone were those instantaneous responses by God -- whether to test me or not, who knows? -- and so the creation of some sort of system for procuring God's continuing involvement in my life became imperative, and not just for me, but many of us who also longed for experience.

As I see it now, that formula was the catalyst for the Charismatic Movement, which surely sweeped me off my youthful feet shod merely with the prerparation of the gospel. I longed for more.

Unfortunately, that distraction took far too many years from me. I'm still, to this day, sifting through the debris.

 

[Qnts2]

Throughout my childhood, I attended numerous churches -- Lutheran, Salvation Army, Methodist, Baptist. I went forward to the altar for prayer at an early age, and not at any time was I accompanied by either of my parents. They weren't church goers.

But it wasn't until 1972, while standing in the chow line aboard a naval destroyer that I "heard" the gospel. It was a profound revelation. Through a friendly discussion with a fellow shipmate, I made a choice, and while lying in my bunk that night, motivated by that "breathed upon" word to me, I asked for forgiveness. The transformation within me was immediate.

However, the immediacy of my changed quickened spirit was not the precedent that was to set the course of my Christian walk. For nothing after that day came to me with equal speed. Oh, being filled with the Spirit was fairly fast, but nothing in comparison to being saved.

This is why spiritual formulas, I believe, were so easily adopted by me. Gone were those instantaneous responses by God -- whether to test me or not, who knows? -- and so the creation of some sort of system for procuring God's continuing involvement in my life became imperative, and not just for me, but many of us who also longed for experience.

As I see it now, that formula was the catalyst for the Charismatic Movement, which surely sweeped me off my youthful feet shod merely with the prerparation of the gospel. I longed for more.

Unfortunately, that distraction took far too many years from me. I'm still, to this day, sifting through the debris.

For me also, the moment of salvation was dramatic. For the first years, I also saw many dramatic things from God and quickly answered prayers. I think these very immediate and significant miraculous occurrences in answer to prayer many new believers experience, is a foundation of faith, for those desert times when God seems to be silent and there is little experiential. It was the desert times of God being silent that faith becomes less based on the experiential. But for me, it was the experiential and immediate which put me in the gifts for today 'charismatic' camp...

 

[Yahu]

I am asking about Wof principles, not about extreme caricatures of it.

Does your church, nominally non-wof, still practise wof teachings ?

i.e. positive confession, speaking to the mountain, healing always being God's will and never sent by the devil, etc

I grew up in a non-WoF spirit filled church. They have many things in common such as the concepts of Spiritual warfare. WoF tends to be strong in that area because they are all about Speaking with authority. That is one area that WoF gets right when dealing with our authority over the enemy realm.

Now doctrines like 'healing always being Yah's will' is specifically WoF. By my non-WoF understanding, sin can prevent healing. Repentance is required for the specific issue that opened the door for the illness. For example, both my sister-in-laws have had cancer. One tried for healing but didn't get it until a Word of Knowledge pointed out her error. She then repented of that issue and is now cancer free. My other sister-in-law refused to acknowledge any error on her own part and died of her cancer. Both received abundant prayer for healing.

Now healing can be sent by the enemy. The problem is, it just trades one form of problem for another. It extracts a price. Use witchcraft to bring healing and you will probably be worse off for it.

WoF tends to follow the teachings of a relatively small group of men and the doctrines presented out of Rhema bible college. IMO, many of those doctrines are in error.

I myself went to another WoF bible college. I didn't know it was WoF based but it turned out to be one of those extreme caricatures of WoF. Basically it was about turning your bible into your spell book to speak magic words to bring what you desire.

 

[Yahu]

"What are the conditions Christ taught on prayer?"

IF you can believe in your Heart - NOTHING DOUBTING - (i.e. "Have Faith in God") - you've GOT what you say.

Yet, if we seek His kingdom first, our desires become His desire and we pray for His will be done, not our own.

WoF tends to demand our will be done out of arrogance that we have a right to any desire that they can twist a scripture to the situation.

 

[hopeinGod]

I'm not one who can believe the Charismatic extremes of today will hold up in the long run. Believers may speak of WOF and the prophetic wannabe movements like the Elijah List in decades ahead, but merely as a passing phenomenon.

All that is contained within the above groups, as I see it, are marks of spiritual ambition, not the sort of spiritual desire described in Scripture. It seems to be all about the attainment of position, entitlements, wealth, recognition and adulation, and in total denial of true godliness which is contingent upon denial of self.

What is ahead for those, like me, who are survivors of extremism and error is anyone's guess. For now, I'm content to lay aside that weight and to warn against its blinding side effects.

 

[now faith]

Woho is me its all just so bad,would not want to make a positive confession of Gods Word!
No one has stated that God honors sin with answered prayers.
You know there have been people that Christ himself could not heal.
Join the club.

 

[now faith]

I'm not one who can believe the Charismatic extremes of today will hold up in the long run. Believers may speak of WOF and the prophetic wannabe movements like the Elijah List in decades ahead, but merely as a passing phenomenon.

All that is contained within the above groups, as I see it, are marks of spiritual ambition, not the sort of spiritual desire described in Scripture. It seems to be all about the attainment of position, entitlements, wealth, recognition and adulation, and in total denial of true godliness which is contingent upon denial of self.

What is ahead for those, like me, who are survivors of extremism and error is anyone's guess. For now, I'm content to lay aside that weight and to warn against its blinding side effects.

Well I would rather believe for Gods best than not believe at all.
If a person received from God at one time,and then it stopped why would they assume it was the will of God.
That is true arrogance, to discount others Faith as greed and piety, because your faith has failed.
Show me Good in sickness and poverty,I am amazed at the God of self pity people serve.
I am thank full Peter did not give up,he could have after he denied Christ three times.
Done

 

[now faith]

For me also, the moment of salvation was dramatic. For the first years, I also saw many dramatic things from God and quickly answered prayers. I think these very immediate and significant miraculous occurrences in answer to prayer many new believers experience, is a foundation of faith, for those desert times when God seems to be silent and there is little experiential. It was the desert times of God being silent that faith becomes less based on the experiential. But for me, it was the experiential and immediate which put me in the gifts for today 'charismatic' camp...

Oh but God stops for some reason,you have had your new Christian fellowship then the power stops God changes but you haven't

 

[now faith]

Yet, if we seek His kingdom first, our desires become His desire and we pray for His will be done, not our own.

WoF tends to demand our will be done out of arrogance that we have a right to any desire that they can twist a scripture to the situation.

So twisting the meaning!
Matthew 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

This context is for our needs,seek ye first the kingdom of God these things what things,food clothes basic needs.
It takes faith to Minster Preach, spread the Gospel.