Crossdressing

[BlackSabb]

Hi all. I was watching an episode of Montel today about transgendered people/crossdressing. The really interesting thing that struck me about it was how young the children were when they first exhibited these signs. Well under 2 years.

I was wondering about a couple of things. Do you believe that this is nature or nurture? For those that support it, how would you feel if it was your partner that engaged in crossdressing?

I would be curious to hear from both atheists and Christians.

 

[selfinflikted]

I have no opinion of crossdressing either way, so I'm neutral. Clothes are just clothes, that cover the body - whether they are traditionally male or female, and even that changes over time. I dont see it as a problem at all.

 

[BlackSabb]

I have no opinion of crossdressing either way, so I'm neutral. Clothes are just clothes, that cover the body - whether they are traditionally male or female, and even that changes over time. I dont see it as a problem at all.

I understand what you're saying. But the problem was not the crossdressing/transgendered people, but the society around them. Most people don't see "clothes as clothes". Most see clothes as identifying with a particular gender.

 

[PantsMcFist]

It could be that there are a lot of intersex people who are trying to fit the gender the intuitively feel they are. There are a lot more than one would suspect I've heard statistics as high as 7%, but most sources put it between 3% & 5% of all children born have intersex qualities. At that point it's up to the doctor to decide what the sex of the child will be, and perform the necessary nip/tuck.

 

[selfinflikted]

I understand what you're saying. But the problem was not the crossdressing/transgendered people, but the society around them. Most people don't see "clothes as clothes". Most see clothes as identifying with a particular gender.

That's true. When I look at a dress, I immediately think "women's apparel". However, if a man wants to wear one, who I am to say a thing about it? Sure, the man might look a little silly, depending on his build and the style dress, but who cares?

 

[BlackSabb]

That's true. When I look at a dress, I immediately think "women's apparel". However, if a man wants to wear one, who I am to say a thing about it? Sure, the man might look a little silly, depending on his build and the style dress, but who cares?

Well, that was the whole crux of the program. The judgements, preconceptions, reactions etc of the society around them. You say "who cares?" The vast majority of people care and have strong opinions, usually traditonal conservative, on such.

 

[selfinflikted]

Well, that was the whole crux of the program. The judgements, preconceptions, reactions etc of the society around them. You say "who cares?" The vast majority of people care and have strong opinions, usually traditonal conservative, on such.

Well, people shouldn't care. I really can't understand how people can justify telling others how they should/should not live their lives.

 

[Pommer]

Well, people shouldn't care. I really can't understand how people can justify telling others how they should/should not live their lives.

The odd thing is that the biblical prohibitions agin crossdressing, I dunno, but from my (limited) experience with what people of the time were (supposedly) wearing all looked pretty much the same.

Maybe it's just that "hollywood" syndrome that makes our "reality" of historic times distorted?

 

[Garyzenuf]

Hi all. I was watching an episode of Montel today about transgendered people/crossdressing. The really interesting thing that struck me about it was how young the children were when they first exhibited these signs. Well under 2 years.

At 2 years old I was still into eating bugs, so I don't put much stock in the reasoning power I possessed at the time. Seeing people start picking your colors for you before you're even born, at that age its probably not nuture, but nature. Although it could be the little tikes way of standing up to "The Man", ala Stewie.

 

[PsychMJC]

That's true. When I look at a dress, I immediately think "women's apparel". However, if a man wants to wear one, who I am to say a thing about it? Sure, the man might look a little silly, depending on his build and the style dress, but who cares?

Lots of casual dresses look pretty comfy tho. And with my broad shoulders I would probably look awesome!

 

[BlackSabb]

How come not a single female has answered so far? Gee, so many liberal free thinking women around here. It's pretty obvious that even liberal women are as uncomfortable with this topic as conservative religous ones.

Interesting.

 

[Washington]

The vast majority of people care and have strong opinions, usually traditonal conservative, on such.

What vast majority? Of the US population or those selected for the show?

It's pretty obvious that even liberal women are as uncomfortable with this topic as conservative religous ones.

Jump to conclusions much? *Sheesh!*

 

[BlackSabb]

What vast majority? Of the US population or those selected for the show?


Jump to conclusions much? *Sheesh!*

Dude, 11 responses so far, not a single female. Well, if you're so confident that the majority of people don't have an issue with crossdressing, I challenge you to go around town in a dress. And just see how people don't stare, gawk, ridicule and sneer at you.

"Sheesh" right back at you buddy.

 

[Washington]

Dude, 11 responses so far, not a single female. Well, if you're so confident that the majority of people don't have an issue with crossdressing, I challenge you to go around town in a dress. And just see how people don't stare, gawk, ridicule and sneer at you.

"Sheesh" right back at you buddy.

Whoa! there big boy. Settle down. *snicker* *snicker* I see you simply can't stop jumping at conclusions. I ask what the vast majority was, and you neatly ignored me. And when I accuse you of jumping at conclusions, you immediately conclude that I'm confident that the majority of people don't have an issue with cross-dressing. Now, having given you absolutely no reason to form such an opinion, it's obvious you're jumping at another conclusion. The question now is, what is you next jump going to consist of: that I'm part of a world-wide conspiracy against non cross-dressing, male Christians?

BOO!​

 

[BlackSabb]

Whoa! there big boy. Settle down. *snicker* *snicker* I see you simply can't stop jumping at conclusions. I ask what the vast majority was, and you neatly ignored me. And when I accuse you of jumping at conclusions, you immediately conclude that I'm confident that the majority of people don't have an issue with cross-dressing. Now, having given you absolutely no reason to form such an opinion, it's obvious you're jumping at another conclusion. The question now is, what is you next jump going to consist of: that I'm part of a world-wide conspiracy against non cross-dressing, male Christians?

​

Yes. Exactly. Show me another thread with the first 12 replies without any female posters. My point is that a lot of liberals aren't really "liberal". Deep down inside, you're as conservative as most people.

Like I say. Prove me wrong and go around town in a dress. And get back to me.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Hi all. I was watching an episode of Montel today about transgendered people/crossdressing. The really interesting thing that struck me about it was how young the children were when they first exhibited these signs. Well under 2 years.

I was wondering about a couple of things. Do you believe that this is nature or nurture?

It's not "nature" alone, unless we are to believe that people innately know which are women's clothes and which are men's.

For those that support it, how would you feel if it was your partner that engaged in crossdressing?

I can't imagine it would make any difference.

 

[BlackSabb]

It's not "nature" alone, unless we are to believe that people innately know which are women's clothes and which are men's.

That's a good point. How does a 15mth old (like in the Montel program) know what is "men's" or "women's"? A 15mth old doesn't know even what he/she is, let alone of others. He/she wouldn't even have the concept of clothing. A piece of clothing could be picked up as a play thing, just like a toy, a pet, a book etc.

Children only develop all these concepts later from parental/societal conditioning. It is not inherent.

 

[sidhe]

"It's a mat, with different CONCLUSIONS on it...and you JUMP to them! Eh? See?"
"That is the stupidest idea I've ever heard."
"Bad idea...very bad idea."

I'll chime in here - I don't care what anyone wears. Dude in a dress, fine. Chick in a three-piece suit, whatever. I don't believe in dichotomous gender to begin with, so why would I care what people wear?

This thread contains more fail per post than the FDA recommended daily allowance.

 

[BlackSabb]

"It's a mat, with different CONCLUSIONS on it...and you JUMP to them! Eh? See?"
"That is the stupidest idea I've ever heard."
"Bad idea...very bad idea."

I'll chime in here - I don't care what anyone wears. Dude in a dress, fine. Chick in a three-piece suit, whatever. I don't believe in dichotomous gender to begin with, so why would I care what people wear?

This thread contains more fail per post than the FDA recommended daily allowance.

Well finally, a chic to jump in to this discussion! I must confess, that if I had a son who wanted to crossdress, I'd be devastated. But not quite for the reason that you think.

I know that clothes are dictated by society and that fashions change with culture and time. A piece of garment that wraps around your waist is not inherently female. It's only female because of what the rest of society dictates, in a particular time and culture.

But I also know what it's like to be the out cast, to be the odd one out, never quite fitting in. I'd hate for my son to go through that. I'd cringe at the taunts and ridicule he'd suffer if he crossdressed. For that reason, I'd hate it if he was inclined that way.

But it's funny the way things change though. I have one interesting story. I distinctly remember when I was a kid, (Ugh! decades ago. Now, I'm revealing my age), and I was on my way home from school. I was walking through the turnstyles and there was this guy there walking through, wheeling his bicycle. I'm fairly certain that this was at a time when those lycra pants first came about for cycling. This guy was wearing a pair and a couple of school girls giggled and yelled out "nice pants" to him. Like I say, the early days of this lycra apparel for cycling.

And now, you hardly see anyone cycling without wearing them, male or female. I doubt anyone blinks an eye anymore. Why? Because it has become accepted. As I said before, this is an example of how society dictates fashion and clothing. It may be right, it may be wrong, but that's the way it is.

I'd hate to be ridiculed like that publicly. If I had a son in those days that cycled, I'd refuse to let him wear those cycling pants. If I had a son today, I'd buy him a pair myself for cycling. I honestly don't think it's worth it to "be who you are" and suffer taunts, ridicule and isolation from others. I've seen for myself the first hand effects of such, and I don't mean just crossdressing. I'm talking about people who have been a little different for whatever reason, whether they have been black sheep of their families, or had some social/personal difficulty like drugs or alcohol etc. And I've known people who've ended it all.

Tragically.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

It could be that there are a lot of intersex people who are trying to fit the gender the intuitively feel they are. There are a lot more than one would suspect I've heard statistics as high as 7%, but most sources put it between 3% & 5% of all children born have intersex qualities. At that point it's up to the doctor to decide what the sex of the child will be, and perform the necessary nip/tuck.

Thankfully that's changing. More and more, intersex children are given the opportunity to express their gender and make their own decisions on surgery later in life. But yeah, I'd have to agree that there are a lot more people with some degree of intersex than people realize.