Crossdressing

[BlackSabb]

Well, according to this line of reasoning a change in fashion requires a lot of people who are willing to be ridiculed publicly.


Because you are afraid to be ridiculed you dictate your son what to wear??

That´s your prerogative. Your son may think differently.
Besides, I really don´t know what cycling clothes have to do with "who you are".

Because they were ridiculed for their clothes? Come on.

Yes, what's the problem? Of course some people have committed suicide for not just "clothes", but what those clothes have represented. Some people have felt like they don't belong and don't fit in, some people have been victimised, some have been discriminated, some have been bullied and harassed. Whether they have been gay, lesbian, transexual, transvestite, nerds, quite social types, loners, misfits etc.

Why "come on?" What is so surprising that some transgendered people have ended it all? If you think it's just about the "clothes", you are so way off it's not funny. It's about all the issues behind the clothes, issues with themsleves, issues with society.

So you "come on".

When I've had a really difficult childhood at odds with my parents, being always the odd one out (socially awkward) at school and church, being isolated, being teased and made fun of, do you not understand why I'd do anything so that my son wouldn't go through the same thing as I went through?

This is not a slight against you, BlackSabb, but if outward appearance is at the top of our list of things to be concerned about, we've got a problem, and a fairly large one at that.

Awwww....I felt really bad after reading that, but I realised you are correct. As I said in my reply above this, outward appearances are indicative of inward feelings, states of mind, past hurts and experiences etc. I know that it is in my case. I have a lot of abuse and hurts, issues with home, school, church etc. I've never fitted in anywhere. I've had drummed into me silly about being a "real man". I am unable to let go and feel like a wuss or a dandy with anything that contradicts this.

But yeah QO, what can I say? I'm an insecure piece of trash that has never been comfortable of letting go these things and being able to just be myself for fear of others. You can say it, it's okay. I've said it for you.

No, I'm not a closet crossdresser, it doesn't interest me one bit. And yes, I do a lot of regular guy things and I'm not a delicate dandy. But occasionally, it would be nice to be able to do something that may not be typically "blokey" and not be so obsessive over it. You know, "I'm a wuss?" or "I'm a girl" type of thing. It may be somthing simple as a movie. I generally for eg, hate chic flicks. But very occasionally, I'll watch ond that I may surprisingly find enjoyable, usually because it has another dialogue in it than just the romance. A good example is that silly film "Music and Lyrics" even though I normally can't stand Hugh Grant. It was very funny with lots of clever puns, plus that hot young chic that played the teen pop star.

I actually watched that on my own when my wife went to bed, because I was too embaressed to admit to my wife that I was watching that movie. Which is really stupid I know, because it was her that convinced me years ago to see "Zoolander", a silly movie about male models. She harassed me to see it, and I thought, "ugh, why would I want to see a movie about male models?" And it turned out to be a movie I absolutely loved, so much so that my wife bought it for me on dvd.

But there you go. The workings of the insecure mind.


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[quatona]

Yes, what's the problem? Of course some people have committed suicide for not just "clothes", but what those clothes have represented.

So the clothes are not the actual issue.

Some people have felt like they don't belong and don't fit in, some people have been victimised, some have been discriminated, some have been bullied and harassed.
Whether they have been gay, lesbian, transexual, transvestite, nerds, quite social types, loners, misfits etc.

People can be dicriminated against for pretty much everything.
The question, however, is: Are they discriminated against for e.g. the group they belong to, for their convictions or simply for being unfashionable?
Some people - for various reasons that we needn´t discuss for the time being - have a stronger urge to be/behave/dress/be looked upon as "normal", others don´t care much, again others enjoy to be "exotic".

The biker clothes had and have nothing to do with convictions, groups - unless maybe you are a cycling enthusiast in a group of cycling enthusiasts, in which case wearing them makes you "normal" in the eyes of the other persons of the group.

Why "come on?"

Because I think you are confusing and lumping together a lot of things.

What is so surprising that some transgendered people have ended it all?

They probably would have ended it all no matter what clothes they wore. They were "misfits" by standards of the majority, and if that was a problem for them, it would have remained a problem no matter whatever clothes they would have dressed in.
Besides, I´d like to see the story where someone ended it all because he was ridiculed for wearing cycling clothes. (That´s the part I have commented on, after all).

If you think it's just about the "clothes", you are so way off it's not funny.

Me?? You are the one who started talking about biking clothes and that you would have forbidden your son to wear them when they were unusual.

It's about all the issues behind the clothes, issues with themsleves, issues with society.

Indeed. And these problems can be plentyfold, depending on the situation.
If your son wouldn´t mind getting a couple of ridiculing remarks for his choice of sportswear, I´d recommend you to be happy for him that he has something ahead of you. I do understand some people´s fear of being looked upon as "unnormal" (often it makes complete sense in view of their personal history), but prescribing those fears to your children is not a good idea.

When I've had a really difficult childhood at odds with my parents, being always the odd one out (socially awkward) at school and church, being isolated, being teased and made fun of, do you not understand why I'd do anything so that my son wouldn't go through the same thing as I went through?

Of course I do understand that.
I just don´t think that your reaction (forbidding him to wear the clothes he wants to wear) would come anywhere close to "doing anything so...".
Instead of equipping him with a healthy self esteem (or allowing him to use the self esteem he obviously has already) you would be establishing your personal fears as the standard for his behaviour.

 

[BlackSabb]

Besides, I´d like to see the story where someone ended it all because he was ridiculed for wearing cycling clothes. (That´s the part I have commented on, after all).

Me?? You are the one who started talking about biking clothes and that you would have forbidden your son to wear them when they were unusual.
Indeed. And these problems can be plentyfold, depending on the situation.
If your son wouldn´t mind getting a couple of ridiculing remarks for his choice of sportswear, I´d recommend you to be happy for him that he has something ahead of you. I do understand some people´s fear of being looked upon as "unnormal" (often it makes complete sense in view of their personal history), but prescribing those fears to your children is not a good idea.

I don't see trying to protect your children as "prescribing" my fears to them. If I was always the loner and misfit, I would do everything for my children to be accepted and not suffer like I did. That's all.

It doesn't matter if it's wearing clothing not typical for a gender, or my son doing ballet, or my daughter doing wrestling etc I would be very unhappy them pursuing those activities and would most probably not allow it. However, once they grew up and were old enough to make their own life decisions, I would respect whatever they did. It's only as a vulnerable child that I would try to encourage them to fit in as much as possible for a good grounding for their adult life.

If that makes me hard, so be it.

 

[quatona]

I don't see trying to protect your children as "prescribing" my fears to them. If I was always the loner and misfit, I would do everything for my children to be accepted and not suffer like I did. That's all.

It doesn't matter if it's wearing clothing not typical for a gender, or my son doing ballet, or my daughter doing wrestling etc I would be very unhappy them pursuing those activities and would most probably not allow it. However, once they grew up and were old enough to make their own life decisions, I would respect whatever they did. It's only as a vulnerable child that I would try to encourage them to fit in as much as possible for a good grounding for their adult life.

If that makes me hard, so be it.

Whether it makes you hard or not is not my concern. That´s your problem.
My concern is that - despite your good intentions - chances are that your approach is counterproductive to your goals for your children.
Suffering is one´s own making. If you want to prevent someone from suffering teach him how not to suffer - as opposed to teaching him how to blame the circumstances and avoid the triggers for his suffering (not to mention the unfounded assumption that his suffering must be triggered by the same things you suffer from).

 

[cantata]

I would have thought that a child is just as likely to suffer as a result of not being allowed to express her or himself as she or he sees fit in choice of clothing, activities, and in other ways, as they are as a result of being picked on for the way they do express themselves.