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Criticizing Islam

Murrisch

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You assume he would say things that would attract their attention.



I'm a professor of Middle East and South Asian history.

Yes I do. And it seems to me that it takes very very little to attract their attention. I'm probably paranoid. I hope I am. But I am very, very upset with the NSA.

I have no reason to believe that Woodrow would say anything untoward. However, the government doesn't need now nor never has needed a good reason to persecute someone, IMO.

Really, the NSA is getting or is way out of hand. Don't you agree?

You could be an NSA agent and pose as a professor of Middle East and South Asian history, lol.

You have read that NSA operatives or some such have been playing games and monitoring player chat in the side channel haven't you?
 
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smaneck

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What is "Christian Identity"?

Christian Identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Christian Identity movement first received widespread attention by mainstream media in 1984, when the white nationalist organization known as The Order embarked on a murderous crime spree before being taken down by the FBI. Tax resister and militia movement organizer Gordon Kahl, whose death in a 1983 shootout with authorities helped inspire The Order, also had connections to the Christian Identity movement.[6][7] The movement returned to public attention in 1992 and 1993, in the wake of the deadly Ruby Ridge confrontation, when newspapers discovered that former Green Beret and right-wing separatist Randy Weaver had at least a loose association with Christian Identity believers.[8]
 
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wn123455

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Yes I do. And it seems to me that it takes very very little to attract their attention. I'm probably paranoid. I hope I am. But I am very, very upset with the NSA.

I have no reason to believe that Woodrow would say anything untoward. However, the government doesn't need now nor never has needed a good reason to persecute someone, IMO.

Really, the NSA is getting or is way out of hand. Don't you agree?

You could be an NSA agent and pose as a professor of Middle East and South Asian history, lol.

You have read that NSA operatives or some such have been playing games and monitoring player chat in the side channel haven't you?

If NSA was really serious about taking away freedom of speech they would have arrested most of ummah forums and islamicawakening forums for inciting hatred towards non-muslims.
 
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wn123455

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Christian Identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Christian Identity movement first received widespread attention by mainstream media in 1984, when the white nationalist organization known as The Order embarked on a murderous crime spree before being taken down by the FBI. Tax resister and militia movement organizer Gordon Kahl, whose death in a 1983 shootout with authorities helped inspire The Order, also had connections to the Christian Identity movement.[6][7] The movement returned to public attention in 1992 and 1993, in the wake of the deadly Ruby Ridge confrontation, when newspapers discovered that former Green Beret and right-wing separatist Randy Weaver had at least a loose association with Christian Identity believers.[8]

Looks like the Christian identity movement copied some stuff off Afrocentric history.
 
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WoodrowX2

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Woodrow . . . I'd like to hear it from you a practicing Muslim whether Muslims are to practice warfare against Christians or any other group where ever they are found. I don't think so but I know so little of the religion I'd like to have your view.

We are only to resort to war for self protection if attacked. We are forbidden to be aggressors and even in war are not to harm non-combatants, women, children, the disabled, the elderly and clergy of all religions.

We also are not to damage crops, livestock, trees, Houses of worship or to use any form of fire as a weapon.

The ayyat you are quoting is from Surah 9 ayyat 5

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This was regarding a very specific people and time.

A few things about Surah 9

Historical Background

Now let us consider the historical background of the Surah. The series of events that have been discussed in this Surah took place after the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah. By that time, one-third of Arabia had come under the sway of Islam which had established itself as a powerful, well organized and civilized Islamic State. This Treaty afforded further opportunities to Islam to spread its influence in the comparatively peaceful atmosphere created by it. After this Treaty, two events took place, which led to very important results:

The treaty was broken and a revelation came as a warneing it is in 3 parts.

Ayyat 5 is contained in the first discourse

Discourses and Periods of Revelation

This Surah comprises three discourses:-

The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.

The second discourse (vv., 38-72) was sent down in Rajab A. H. 9 or a little before this, when the Holy Prophet was engaged in making preparations for the Campaign, of Tabuk. In this discourse, the Believers were urged to take active part in Jihad, and the shirkers were severely rebuked for holding back their wealth and for hesitation to sacrifice their lives in the way of Allah because of their hypocrisy, weak faith or negligence.

The third discourse (vv. 73-I 29) was revealed on his return from the Campaign of Tabuk. There are some pieces in this discourse that were sent down on different occasions during the same period and were afterwards consolidated by the Holy Prophet into the Surah in accordance with inspiration from Allah. But this caused no interruption in its continuity because they dealt with the same subject and formed part of the same series of events. This discourse warns the hypocrites of their evil deeds and rebukes those Believers who had stayed behind in the Campaign of Tabuk. Then after taking them to task, Allah pardons those true Believers who had not taken part in the Jihad in the Way of Allah for one reason or the other.

Ayyat 1-37 need to be read and understood as a paragraph

However ayyat 1-5 are specific to the Broken treaty and the warning given to the mushriks
Subject: Problems of Peace and War

In continuation of Surah AL-ANFAL, this Surah also deals with the problems of peace and war and bases the theme on the Tabuk Expedition.
Topics and their Interconnection

This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12

The entire purpose of the Surah is contained in the 3rd discourse

In the concluding portion, general instructions have been given to the Believers for their guidance. 119 - 127

This is the conclusion: "Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe". 128 - 129

Overall the surah is part of a historical event and is not a command. the lesson we are to learn is in the final ayyat of it

"Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe"
 
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wn123455

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We are only to resort to war for self protection if attacked. We are forbidden to be aggressors and even in war are not to harm non-combatants, women, children, the disabled, the elderly and clergy of all religions.

We also are not to damage crops, livestock, trees, Houses of worship or to use any form of fire as a weapon.

The ayyat you are quoting is from Surah 9 ayyat 5



This was regarding a very specific people and time.

A few things about Surah 9



The treaty was broken and a revelation came as a warneing it is in 3 parts.

Ayyat 5 is contained in the first discourse



Ayyat 1-37 need to be read and understood as a paragraph

However ayyat 1-5 are specific to the Broken treaty and the warning given to the mushriks


The entire purpose of the Surah is contained in the 3rd discourse



Overall the surah is part of a historical event and is not a command. the lesson we are to learn is in the final ayyat of it

"Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe"

If muslims are not supposed to be aggressors in war what about the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

Papua conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about islamist groups involvement in the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

Journeyman Pictures : short films : West Papua Militias
 
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Murrisch

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If NSA was really serious about taking away freedom of speech they would have arrested most of ummah forums and islamicawakening forums for inciting hatred towards non-muslims.

This doesn't really make sense to me. You mention taking away freedom is speech by arresting most of ummah forums and islamicawakening forums.

Freedom of speech and freedom of unnecessary intrusion by government is for me a much larger issue.

You seem really fixated on Muslims and Islam being bad people. How is this? Have you ever searched for reasons to think of the Muslims, especially in America, as just people trying to get along in a complex world and raise their kids.
 
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Murrisch

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We are only to resort to war for self protection if attacked. We are forbidden to be aggressors and even in war are not to harm non-combatants, women, children, the disabled, the elderly and clergy of all religions.

We also are not to damage crops, livestock, trees, Houses of worship or to use any form of fire as a weapon.

The ayyat you are quoting is from Surah 9 ayyat 5



This was regarding a very specific people and time.

A few things about Surah 9



The treaty was broken and a revelation came as a warneing it is in 3 parts.

Ayyat 5 is contained in the first discourse



Ayyat 1-37 need to be read and understood as a paragraph

However ayyat 1-5 are specific to the Broken treaty and the warning given to the mushriks


The entire purpose of the Surah is contained in the 3rd discourse



Overall the surah is part of a historical event and is not a command. the lesson we are to learn is in the final ayyat of it

"Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe"

Thanks woodrow.
 
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wn123455

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This doesn't really make sense to me. You mention taking away freedom is speech by arresting most of ummah forums and islamicawakening forums.

Freedom of speech and freedom of unnecessary intrusion by government is for me a much larger issue.

You seem really fixated on Muslims and Islam being bad people. How is this? Have you ever searched for reasons to think of the Muslims, especially in America, as just people trying to get along in a complex world and raise their kids.

I do not hate muslims or islam. I hate islamists.
 
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Murrisch

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If muslims are not supposed to be aggressors in war what about the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

Papua conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about islamist groups involvement in the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

Journeyman Pictures : short films : West Papua Militias

You are fixated wn.

Forever almost, people who belong to religious groups do thing they are not suppose to do. Is this too complicated for you to understand? Their religious affiliation could be incidental to their aggressive way.

Frankly, my patience with you is wearing thin. I'm gonna ignore your posts for awhile as you seem to have fixed ideas and are not open to any kind of give and take dialogue.
 
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WoodrowX2

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If muslims are not supposed to be aggressors in war what about the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

Papua conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about islamist groups involvement in the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

Journeyman Pictures : short films : West Papua Militias

You would have to ask them. I am not Indonesian. Muslims are very individualistic. I am much more inline with Native American thinking than Indonesian.

If I ever get into trouble for radical actions it will be because of my stance in support of the Lakotah, not for being Muslim.

I am a bit outspoken in my support for the RoL

http://www.republicoflakotah.com/
 
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Murrisch

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You would have to ask them. I am not Indonesian. Muslims are very individualistic. I am much more inline with Native American thinking than Indonesian.

If I ever get into trouble for radical actions it will be because of my stance in support of the Lakotah, not for being Muslim.

I am a bit outspoken in my support for the RoL

Republic of Lakotah – Mitakuye Oyasin

Good or you in your support fot RoL. The American Indians really got shafted.

My mom was born in Columbus ND so I'm a bit familiar with ND. Been their a couple times. I love the plains. Some can't stand it. Don't like the mosquitoes though.
 
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WoodrowX2

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Good or you in your support fot RoL. The American Indians really got shafted.

My mom was born in Columbus ND so I'm a bit familiar with ND. Been their a couple times. I love the plains. Some can't stand it. Don't like the mosquitoes though.

I don't have much choice My wife is Cheyenne my deceased wife was Cherokee

Your Mom was from way up north. Columbus might just as well be considered to be in Canada. Oddly some of the earliest settlers there were Muslim. Most came from Syria in the late 1800s and very early 1900s. Many of the old farmsteads are still in the families. Your Mom probably knew some when she was growing up but probably never knew they were Muslim
 
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I believe you will find the majority of us see those of examples of things that had been done, not as commands of what we are to do.

Not much different from the horrible things that were done in the OT, they are there but only a few Christians see them as commands for today.

Yes because I believe that you and atheists have what Paul described:
Romans 2
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Except possibly this concerning adultery - Mohammad's ruling for many wives and sex slaves -
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
 
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smaneck

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I have no reason to believe that Woodrow would say anything untoward. However, the government doesn't need now nor never has needed a good reason to persecute someone, IMO.

Really, the NSA is getting or is way out of hand. Don't you agree?

Perhaps, but the NSA only monitors, they don't persecute or prosecute.

You could be an NSA agent and pose as a professor of Middle East and South Asian history, lol.

Uh, no. You're confusing the NSA with the FBI or the CIA. The NSA is made up of geeks who simply monitor communications. It doesn't have spies or undercover agents. They recruit on the campus where I did my graduate work, but they are mostly looking for people with language and math skills.

You have read that NSA operatives or some such have been playing games and monitoring player chat in the side channel haven't you?

They may well monitor such forums, but they wouldn't actively participate.
 
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smaneck

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If muslims are not supposed to be aggressors in war what about the indonesian occupation and colonization of West Papua?

This may come as a shock to you, but sometimes people act in ways contrary to their religion. States especially tend to do this kind of thing.

In fact, I've yet to hear of a Christian nation that 'turned the other cheek.'
 
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smaneck

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If NSA was really serious about taking away freedom of speech they would have arrested most of ummah forums and islamicawakening forums for inciting hatred towards non-muslims.

The NSA isn't empowered to make arrests. They monitor, that is all.
 
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