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seeking.IAM

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...The pattern in my parish (as itb is in many others) is that the junior automatically becomes the senior the next year and we elect a new junior...

It's not the pattern here that Jr. Warden's are necessary in succession to Sr. Wardens. While it's often the case, skill sets are sometimes an issue and occasionally Jr. Warden's prove themselves not up to the task or unable to make the time commitment. My first stint as Sr. Warden followed my term as Junior Warden. Currently, I was pulled from the congregation and appointed Senior Warden after our Rector lost two Sr. Wardens (who had followed me) in a single year. He didn't see the skill sets among the then-Vestry and tapped me again. Then I was re-elected to the Vestry at the next Annual Meeting of the congregation.

I think a challenge for some churches, especially those with declining attendance, is the lack of breadth of skills for some tasks, serving on the Finance or Investment committees for example. It's desirable to get at many people in the congregations involved as possible, yet skills need to be brought to the table for particular tasks.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I can link you to a really good Orthodox tailor who I used if you give me a bit of time to dig through my records. I feel the cassock and alb are two places where we don’t want to buy from the lowest bidder.

$250 is what I spent on my anteri 15 years ago. It's in good shape, but I just swim in it. Alpha Omega is where my priest and deacon get their vestments. I'm only permitting to wear a riassa (which has wide sleeves that hang about 8 inches from the wrist) or anteri (has closed sleeves which is easier to turn pages or get to books).
 
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The Liturgist

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$250 is what I spent on my anteri 15 years ago. It's in good shape, but I just swim in it. Alpha Omega is where my priest and deacon get their vestments. I'm only permitting to wear a riassa (which has wide sleeves that hang about 8 inches from the wrist) or anteri (has closed sleeves which is easier to turn pages or get to books).

This lady is Greek and I believe she makes both styles, as well as exorasons and zostikons.
 
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PloverWing

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Funny how it's so different from place to place, even within the same denomination.

We have yet another variant in my parish. The Senior Warden and Junior Warden are two different positions, with two different skill sets. The Junior Warden oversees much of the maintenance of the church building and property. The Senior Warden's role, as our rector described it to me when I became Senior Warden, "is a role that is more about counsel, spiritual health & direction, and visioning, than it is about the day-to-day operations of the church". I'm no good at things like dealing with roofers and contractors and such, so I'd be an awful Junior Warden. But as Senior Warden, I've gotten to do things like helping to draft our church's statement on LGBTQ issues and helping to select the new Sunday School curriculum. All that is to say, our Junior Warden doesn't automatically become Senior Warden, because they're two different kinds of jobs.

It is funny how different it is from one place to the next!
 
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The Liturgist

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We have yet another variant in my parish. The Senior Warden and Junior Warden are two different positions, with two different skill sets. The Junior Warden oversees much of the maintenance of the church building and property. The Senior Warden's role, as our rector described it to me when I became Senior Warden, "is a role that is more about counsel, spiritual health & direction, and visioning, than it is about the day-to-day operations of the church". I'm no good at things like dealing with roofers and contractors and such, so I'd be an awful Junior Warden. But as Senior Warden, I've gotten to do things like helping to draft our church's statement on LGBTQ issues and helping to select the new Sunday School curriculum. All that is to say, our Junior Warden doesn't automatically become Senior Warden, because they're two different kinds of jobs.

It is funny how different it is from one place to the next!

In the same province!

I really wish the Episcopal Church had an Archbishop. I think Ben Curry deserves the title; I feel like he is one of the spiritually and managerially stronger leaders in the Anglican communion, perhaps the best one since Dr. Rowan Williams.

I think ACNA has an Archbishop. One task which I think Curry is up to will be working out improved relations with ACNA; in Las Vegas, the Episcopal churches and St. George Anglican Church have a good relationship.

Do we have any ACNA members @Shane R and also, does your Anglican jurisdiction have churchwardens?
 
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The Liturgist

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$250 is what I spent on my anteri 15 years ago. It's in good shape, but I just swim in it. Alpha Omega is where my priest and deacon get their vestments. I'm only permitting to wear a riassa (which has wide sleeves that hang about 8 inches from the wrist) or anteri (has closed sleeves which is easier to turn pages or get to books).

By the way there is a sort of vest like exorason replacement authorized in the Church of Greece and I believe in some American dioceses that is a slightly lighter color than the black exorason and zostikon (which are black unless you are His Beatitude the Patriarch of Romania, who has a white one as a symbol that the Romanian church nevef experienced any heresy, and not EO but still vested much like them, His Holiness the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, and their holinesses the Catholicoi of the Assyrian and the Ancient Church of the East, the Syriac Patriarch having a red zostikon and his Assyrian counterparts having purple zostikons. The red zostikon and the red inverted fez, the name of which I forget, which Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas routinely wore, is also routinely worn by the Archbishop of Mosul, who has a lovely red beard; their bishops can wear all red except in the presence of the Patriarch, and they can always wear the red sash. Also curiously Syriac Orthodox archpriests, and I think ordinary priests also, can wear a purple sash, but this color I have never seen used by a Syriac Orthodox bishop.

Although strictly speaking there are no Syriac Orthodox bishops, at least not in the Middle East; only the Maphrianate in India, and the breakaway Indian Orthodox Church have them (I think Thotizoor, the Malankara Independent Syriac Church, which is a Syriac Orthodox church in every respect with good relations with all the other St. Thomas Christians, just has a Metropolitan, and relies on the protestant Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is a full member of the Anglican communion, and does not operate in Syria despite the name, to ordain a replacement when the Metropolitan dies. There have been substantial changes in the OO churches in recent decades, largely reconstructions, because they took harder damage overall than the Eastern Orthodox during the Turkish Genocide, although that said, of the four ethnic groups targeted (Pontic Greek, Suroye, Assyrian and Armenian), the Pontic Greeks were the most thoroughly ethnically cleansed, as a result of the forced population exchange between Greece and Turkey, with the tragic result that there is no longer a Christian Church in Ephesus or several other cities corresponded with in the New Testament.
 
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Paidiske

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Likewise, what Pastor asks for, I provide; I am free to share my concerns with him, but I will always deffer to his judgement.

I don't expect automatic deference. And I've been known to change my mind after hearing parishioner's points of view. I see it that we have different roles which interact, and that it's best if they interact with mutual respect and goodwill. But having been burned in a previous parish, I guess I'm just careful that that doesn't turn into something much more unhealthy!
 
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Deegie

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I don't expect automatic deference. And I've been known to change my mind after hearing parishioner's points of view. I see it that we have different roles which interact, and that it's best if they interact with mutual respect and goodwill. But having been burned in a previous parish, I guess I'm just careful that that doesn't turn into something much more unhealthy!

Thanks for putting that so eloquently and graciously. I'm in a parish now which had a previous history of...umm...very strong lay leadership, to put it as politely as possible. It's taken a lot of time, patience, education, and love to both earn some trust and also carve out my role as rector.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't expect automatic deference. And I've been known to change my mind after hearing parishioner's points of view. I see it that we have different roles which interact, and that it's best if they interact with mutual respect and goodwill. But having been burned in a previous parish, I guess I'm just careful that that doesn't turn into something much more unhealthy!

There are only a few things I would exclude someone from communion for, for a period of at least a month in each case, unless substantial reparations were made: cheating on or physically abusing their spouse or otherwise engaging in domestic violence, engaging in criminal violence such as murder or assault or armed robbery, teaching a false Gospel, for example, if someone started promoting The Book of Mormon during coffee hour*, or lastly, if someone created a scenario vaguely similar to what you are describing, which is stirring up trouble in the congregation, by for example, badmouthing other members, engaging in slander, and provoking disputes. Fortunately none of this has happened except for the criminal violence; one of my missions has impoverished people, and an occasional visitor who was much younger than most of the people did get arrested for some gang related incident, which is extremely sad. I am working with the chaplain at the county jail to go through the process so I can provide assistance to him, if he wants it, through their chaplaincy program. I have done prison chaplaincy before, but I prefer hospital chaplaincy and have an interest in police chaplaincy (which largely consists of assisting officers who have to deliver very bad news - death notifications, to family members, and also providing support to officers and their family).

There was an insane police chaplain in Nevada who put a blue light and siren on his car and was driving at insane speeds, who got booked for impersonating a police officer (however, in Nevada people have done speeds above 140 MPH and driven away with merely a large ticket; I think in much of the US you would probably get serious jail time for doing that), I think he lived in Pahrump, which I feel is like Mos Eisley in Star Wars in terms of what Alec Guiness eloquently described as scum and villainy; I nearly did a mission in Nye County, where Pahrump is located, but I determined it was in the catchment area for some perfectly good churches in Pahrump, whereas my fields are either outside the catchment area of any good parishes, or are isolated in other respects, or both.

*I know fellow pastors who have had Mormon young men serving as Elders show up at their churches, and they are extremely nice, but if they approached the chalice I would require them to renounce Mormonism and be chrismated, and I would delay all my scheduled services that day to make it happen; otherwise I would scrutinize them with intensity at coffee hour - the same applies to Jehovah’s Witnesses; conversely, Unitarian Universalists, while I really disagree with them, are remarkably good neighbors, or at least they were when I was in the UCC, and I doubt that has changed; they are not present anywhere near the locations where my missions are conducted, indeed, the only persistant denominations located anywhere near where I am working are the Roman Catholics, the United Methodist Church, and interestingly for a rural area, The Episcopal Church, and these are very good and helpful neighbors, although if they were closer to my mission field they would be even more helpful, and then I have non denominational churches which are Christologically dubious - at least one of them I am pretty sure does not teach doctrine in accordance with the CF.com statement of faith or the Nicene Creed, and the hipstor (hipster pastor; note I have been called a hipster but I adamantly reject this designation; I am more like a curious relic of the Edwardian era fused with the type of computer programmer known as a “greybeard”) even did a sermon bashing the Nicene Creed, and Mormon “stakes” (their word for a parish) more or less right next door, which is kind of a bummer, I mean, can I not get an Episcopal or a Lutheran or a Presbyterian church there instead? That would be so much better.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thanks for putting that so eloquently and graciously. I'm in a parish now which had a previous history of...umm...very strong lay leadership, to put it as politely as possible. It's taken a lot of time, patience, education, and love to both earn some trust and also carve out my role as rector.

Indeed, this is a challenge because we have to be their servant, so the trick is to convince them to give us what we need to serve them properly. I thought Paidiske was talking about factional fights among the laity, which I have never experienced in a professional capacity, but which have seen once in a church I attended, and it was ugly.

What distinction do you have in mind between "Archbishop" and "Presiding Bishop"?

Well, “Metropolitan” would sound even better, although whereas the English nd the Russians rank Metropolitans above Archbishops, Greek, Finnish, Czech-Slovak, Serbian and Romanian Orthodox rank Archbishops above Metropolitans. Its about coolness factor.
 
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Shane R

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@Shane R and also, does your Anglican jurisdiction have churchwardens?
About a third of our local fellowships are missions which lack advanced organization. The full-fledged parishes have vestries and churchwardens. Also, many of my colleagues enjoy pipe smoking and have churchwarden pipes (characterized by an elongated stem).
 
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Paidiske

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or lastly, if someone created a scenario vaguely similar to what you are describing, which is stirring up trouble in the congregation, by for example, badmouthing other members, engaging in slander, and provoking disputes...

No, this is not really the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was, for the most part, much more behind closed doors from the congregation, who didn't see what was going on.

To give you one example, I did the supervisors' training which would allow me to have a theological student on field placement in the parish, under my supervision. I was keen to do this, not least because I thought it would be good for the parish to have an ordinand about, contributing to the life of the place etc. My wardens took me aside to tell me that they strongly opposed this idea, not because of any potential impact on the parish, but because I was, in their view, not yet competent enough to be a good example to a student.

There was also the infamous incident where they basically made me get up off my sick bed to let them do an inspection of the vicarage at short notice, whereupon they complained to the archdeacon about my poor housekeeping.

And so on; you get the idea.

Its about coolness factor.

:rolleyes:
 
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GreekOrthodox

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By the way there is a sort of vest like exorason replacement authorized in the Church of Greece and I believe in some American dioceses that is a slightly lighter color than the black exorason and zostikon

As far as I know, I've only seen major clergy and fourth year seminarians wear a vest with the anteri. The vest is not considered a vestment of any kind. The anteri is the Orthodox equivalent to the clerical shirt and slacks for major clergy. The standard anteri doesnt have pockets so the vest provides that.
My has two breast pockets for pens, my reading glasses, etc. as well as two deep waist pockets for keys and wallet. As a reader, I only am permitted to wear it for church services, I don't have need for a vest. The Greek custom is that I bring my anteri to the priest to bless before I put it on. After the service, I take it off before coffee hour unless there is something going on like an early afternoon baptism. In that case, I can leave it on.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, this is not really the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was, for the most part, much more behind closed doors from the congregation, who didn't see what was going on.

To give you one example, I did the supervisors' training which would allow me to have a theological student on field placement in the parish, under my supervision. I was keen to do this, not least because I thought it would be good for the parish to have an ordinand about, contributing to the life of the place etc. My wardens took me aside to tell me that they strongly opposed this idea, not because of any potential impact on the parish, but because I was, in their view, not yet competent enough to be a good example to a student.

There was also the infamous incident where they basically made me get up off my sick bed to let them do an inspection of the vicarage at short notice, whereupon they complained to the archdeacon about my poor housekeeping.

And so on; you get the idea.

:rolleyes:

That’s horrible behavior. Had you done anything that could have set them out to get you or were they just a lot of feckless, ill-mannered, undignified cretinous slubberdegulions unsuitable for ecclesiastical office? I mean, lets be clear, they were sluggerdegulions* because doing an inspection of your parsonage or vicarage as you Anglicans like to call it** is slubberdegulionly, and even if you did something dreadful, like had a pipe organ removed and sent to the scrap yard to make way for a large stage for your Christian rock band with electric guitars and drum kit, I still wouldn’t violate the privacy of your vicarage.

I am just trying to figure out what prompted them to descend from conventional slubberdegulionism to feckless, witless, repugnant slubberdegulionism?

The footnotes are in reverse order today because aside from being pedantic, I am also feeling even lazier than usual.

**what if you are the rector? Then its a rectory, right? But if you’re a mere curate, you get maybe a loft in the attic of the social hall? And deacons, I assume they are expected to sleep atop pillars while standing like St. Theodore the Stylite.

*A slubberdegulion is an archaic insult which fell out of fashion I believe sometime around the Congress of Vienna (1815), meaning a rascal or scoundrel with no redeeming social graces, so pretty much look at me to see an example of a gallant Slubberdegulion off to not save the day. Being a man of the cloth limits the insults available at my disposal, and also since I insist on following the ancient canons, I am compelled to resign if I ever strike someone or at any time commit adultery or homicide.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm sorry, @Paidiske. Those incidents sound horrible.

Yes, seriously, I have never heard of any cleric suffer that kind of invasion of privacy in ... well ... I guess the entire history of the Christian church.

In all seriousness @Paidiske you earned heavenly treasure that day. Being a confessor is very unpleasant but our gracious and loving Heavenly Father sees all, and we do not seek to take an earthly reward for our suffering through vengeance, but trust in Christ Pantocrator, our Lord, God and Savior has promised a heavenly reward.
 
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The Liturgist

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What distinction do you have in mind between "Archbishop" and "Presiding Bishop"?

Archbishop sounds cooler! Although really, we ought to have an Archbishop for each province, based on seniority, and an elected Metropolitan, since what Canterbury has we should have also. Also I would love to see some interesting variation in vestments to reflect the diversity of American Christianity; perhaps Eastern style mitres, such as the Chaldean shash, which is critically endangered because the new Patriarch of Babylon refuses to wear one, or the red kamilavka-like headgear worn by Syriac Orthodox bishops in Iraq, albeit in diverse liturgical colors, to show solidarity with persecuted Eastern Christians.
 
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Shane R

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Well, I have one Spanish cut chasuble. It's Marian blue. A lovely vestment that has seldom been worn. It is the prescribed color for Marian feasts but I have not often been able to celebrate those. The rector of my old parish was very low church and quite Protestant and generally opposed to Marian feasts and saints days. I bent the rules a bit and wore it all through Advent. Most of our Spanish language churches use blue rather than violet during Advent. So I followed their custom with my Spanish vestment. By the way, it came from Catholic Liturgicals.
 
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The Liturgist

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Well, I have one Spanish cut chasuble. It's Marian blue. A lovely vestment that has seldom been worn. It is the prescribed color for Marian feasts but I have not often been able to celebrate those. The rector of my old parish was very low church and quite Protestant and generally opposed to Marian feasts and saints days. I bent the rules a bit and wore it all through Advent. Most of our Spanish language churches use blue rather than violet during Advent. So I followed their custom with my Spanish vestment. By the way, it came from Catholic Liturgicals.

I use blue myself. I follow a hybrid liturgical color scheme which is part Western (Methodist specifically), part Russian/Byzantine as you might imagine. White on Feasts of our Lord, Red on feasts of the Holy Cross, apostles, martyrs, the Victory over the Turks at Loreto and Vienna, the Reformation, and the Triumph of Orthodoxy (which I moved to Sexagesima from the first Sunday of Lent so as to implement the West Syriac Lenten days, because I discovered they correspond, if taken with Palm Sunday and Pascha, with the Beatitudes in Matthew), Blue on feasts of the The Blessed Virgin Mary and the bodiless powers (angels, including St. Michael, so, conveniently, Michaelmas) Violet in Advent, Purple or Dark Red on weekends in Lent and weekdays in the Apostles Fast, Black on weekdays in Lent and Holy Week except Maundy Thursday, changing to white paraments on Holy Saturday according to the Russian custom, White and/or Gold in Christmas Eastertide, Gold on feasts of bishops and theologians, Green on Palm Sunday, Whitsunday, Trinity Sunday, feasts of monastics and confessors, and in Kingdomtide (the second half of Ordinary Time after Pentecost), Orange or Red in Post-Pentecost, Dark Red in the Apostles Fast and on the Beheading of John the Baptist, and Pink on the fifth Sunday of Advent (since I am using the Ambrosian lectionary, because of the integrated Old Testament lesson as a base, I conform with all rites except the Western in having Advent last six weeks), and on the fourth Sunday of Lent, and also occasionally in the Apostles and Dormition Fasts, and also in the Dormition Fast, Sarum Blue seems better than light blue or Marian blue until the actual feast.

Because midweek services only really happen in Holy Week and on Christmas, I truncated the Dormition Fast; it consists only of the Sunday in between Transfiguration Sunday and the following Sunday, then the Sunday after that is the Beheading of St. John the Baptist, the the Elevation of the Cross, then Michaelmas, and then ordinary time until Reformation Sunday, the second to the last Sunday in October, and All Saints Day, on the Last Sunday in October, to ensure there is enough clearance in November for the Feast of Christ the King.

These color changes are not hard, because I am the only one vested in the color of the day, and only at one Eucharist, and paraments are kept to a minimum as it has to fit in the trunk of my old fashioned American RWD full size sedan (either a Mercury Marauder, which is a Grand Marquis with the performance tuning you otherwise got on the police special Crown Vics, a vintage Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon, which has so much room in the back some funeral homes used them as hearses or first call vehicles (there is a rare Oldsmobile badged variant I want to trade it for, the last ever RWD Olds, but its literally a Chevy Caprice wagon), my Dodge Charger SRT/8 when I am in a hurry.

I did consider buying the Challenger Hellcat or Demon, but feared this might send the wrong impression to the laity. Also on the Hellcat, if you use the red key, the one that engages the superchargers, you can literally watch the gas needle move to empty; you have 15 minutes of fuel. I think my next car should be a V8 mustang; I testdrove one in 2018 and loved it, and it is more nimble than the Challenger. I love the Chargers; my relative has one, and I also have a 2011 Buick LaCrosse with which to make a dignified impression at funerals and related events, but GM 6 speed automatic transmissions are loathesome. New and used car prices have shot up due to a shortage of rare earths needed in catalytic convertibles unfortunately. Fortunately I came into posession of a 2012 Mini Cooper whose trade in value could mitigate that.

Seriously, what could be better than vestments and fast big luxurious American cars? We are not to love worldly things, but somehow vestments and sportscars seem to belong to the heavenly realm. Especially in the desert, and especially if you have friends with access to disused pavement. My current speed record is only 150 MPH (on a private road, of course, on a public road I drive somewhat slower, too slow for some people’s taste, considering I have never had a moving violation or at fault accident on my record in the roughly 30 years since I got my license at 16). The thing is, I am not giving up my priesthood for a few extra MPH on a public highway...vehicular homicide is a disqualifier under the Apostolic Canons, as it shows reckless character unbecoming anyone in holy orders. But yeah, cars, computers, liturgical vestments, liturgical books, liturgical music sung by good singers, thuribles loaded with Byzantine monastic incense, good passenger rail, airline travel not in economy class, and splendid architecture, and gourmet dining in a hotel our British friends I think would call “posh.” I want to do the Fairmont on my Canadian trip; I did the Savoy after they refurbished it and that was splendid, almost as good as a hierarchical Divine Liturgy of St. Basil during Lent in a ROCOR church with ornate architecture and a first rate choir.
 
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